Does Vincent's Love For Lucrecia Blind Him To Her Faults And Actions?

[jazzflower92]

The problems I have with Dirge's writing are almost entirely in premise (Vincent's character arc, the size of Deepground, so on and so forth). The fact that Lucrecia is annoying isn't really a problem for me. A character doesn't have to be likable for it be 'good' writing. Voice acting is another beast I suppose but I'm not really talking about that.

I don't really like Vincent getting any with Lucrecia, I didn't even back when the 'Is Vincent Sephiroth's Father' theories abounded. Not EVERYONE a main character likes has to fall for him or her. Lucrecia was pleasant to Vincent, but she was interested in Hojo. If not for looks than for his power, standing, and...need of nurturing, apparently. You do hear about women going for a "project," a person they can change or fix.

Vincent was likely stuck in the "friend zone," if you will.

Hojo isn't a project he is a bury him into a deep hole and forget about him then you will be doing the world a favor case.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I must confess that I also preferred the original game's presentation of things, where at most, Lucrecia probably shagged Vincent 'cause he's hot, but never really fell for him. I figured she must have at least been banging the boy for him to think a marriage proposal could have flown -- unless he moves faster through the stages of a relationship than even I do (I proposed to my wife after two months, but there had been a lot of sexy time before that ).

The original game left us with the impression that Vincent never really had a chance because Lucrecia saw Hojo as someone to nurture or as a project, like Force put it. I was okay with that. They didn't make his past more tragic in Dirge; just less relatable.

I think more of us can relate to the idea of being on the outside of a relationship we know is poisonous, where we're in love with one of the people involved but can't get them to open their eyes to the truth of what they're part of. I know I've been there.

A mutual love getting torn apart by circumstance -- or some wacky ass reason like guilt over getting the other person's parent killed -- is more the realm of fiction.

 

[ForceStealer]

I was probably just set in what I gathered of their relationship in VII, so I didn't even think that Grimoire's death is what prevented them from getting together necessarily, just that it made her uncomfortable.
But, like I said, I was just seeing it through the OG lense and didn't consider it. Better that anyway.

 

[jazzflower92]

I must confess that I also preferred the original game's presentation of things, where at most, Lucrecia probably shagged Vincent 'cause he's hot, but never really fell for him. I figured she must have at least been banging the boy for him to think a marriage proposal could have flown -- unless he moves faster through the stages of a relationship than even I do (I proposed to my wife after two months, but there had been a lot of sexy time before that ).

The original game left us with the impression that Vincent never really had a chance because Lucrecia saw Hojo as someone to nurture or as a project, like Force put it. I was okay with that. They didn't make his past more tragic in Dirge; just less relatable.

I think more of us can relate to the idea of being on the outside of a relationship we know is poisonous, where we're in love with one of the people involved but can't get them to open their eyes to the truth of what they're part of. I know I've been there.

A mutual love getting torn apart by circumstance -- or some wacky ass reason like guilt over getting the other person's parent killed -- is more the realm of fiction.

Yeah,the original game's version of the Lucrecia-Vincent relationship I believe was better and more relatable.Although I still think someone would be very naive to think that Hojo could possibly be a project because he is more like a disease that should be wiped out from the face of the planet.

 

[ForceStealer]

He hadn't really done much of anything yet...

 

[jazzflower92]

He hadn't really done much of anything yet...

Not that we know of.I have a hunch he has did some unethical atrocities in his early years as well but its never been elaborated as much in the game.Sorry,this is Hojo we are talking about and I have a theory that he did some nasty experimentation before ever joining Shinra.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If that's true, and Gast hired him, what does that say about Gast?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yeah, Gast doesn't really get enough credit for the Jenova problem. That said, I have to wonder about the integrity of the Planet's science community in general. Gast had to get his lack of morals from somewhere... or at least, someone didn't call Gast out on it when he first started. However, when there's a lot more crazy (and dangerous) zoology around, it probably doesn't help matters. It's not like Earth where the worst way a creature can kill someone is to maul them to death. They can use high level magic spells and even heal themselves... basic weapon research has to be a lot more advanced just to deal with that, never mind vs. humans... Going against something like a Dragon, normal people can't do that, upgraded people however...

 

[jazzflower92]

Actually now that I think about it would have been more sense to have Gast be in Dirge Of Cerebrus because if you think about it some more Gast is kinda of like Lucrecia in certain ways because he does have a love for science but did cross a morally questionable line in pursuit of knowledge.However,as time went by Gast began to realize that sacrificing morals in the name of science was wrong especially when he found out that Jenova wasn't an Ancient but an evil parastic alien.If I remember didn't Shinra send Lucrecia and Hojo to assist Gast so he technically didn't choose any of them to help him.

 

[ForceStealer]

Do we know that he decided it was wrong? Or did he just realize that Jenova wasn't an Ancient after all and decided to run off with the Ancient he did find.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

from what i remember, when he realized that Jenova wasn't a ancient he left Shinra (so 5 years more or less after the Jenova project) and went to Icicle Inn, where he met Ifalna.

 

[Octo]

Which is nuts really. I mean, your girlfriend/fancywoman tells you what your dealing with is an incredibly dangerous organism and then you decide to go on holiday? Knowing full well that the science department are trying to clone/recreate said organism?

What could possibleye go wrong?

 

[jazzflower92]

Which is nuts really. I mean, your girlfriend/fancywoman tells you what your dealing with is an incredibly dangerous organism and then you decide to go on holiday? Knowing full well that the science department are trying to clone/recreate said organism?

What could possibleye go wrong?

Or maybe because this is Shinra and based on their past behavior I wouldn't put it pass them not to give a darn that Jenova is an evil parastic alien that killed off the Ancients in the past.As long as she can give them results they will keep experimenting on her.I also have a feeling that they would have claimed Jenova as company property preventing him from stopping any expermentation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Gast was the Head of the Science Department. He must have made the staffing decisions for his department. He will have hired both Hojo and Hollander.

He is also the one who chose - in true science department style - to pit his two star underlings against each other in a race to prove his hypothesis about the effect of Jenova cells on human fetuses.

I think Hojo was probably the one who first realised that Jenova was not an Ancient. He seems to be pretty good at his actual science, however lax his morals are.

I thought it was canon that Gast and Ifalna had run away together, though i might well be wrong there. Hojo didn't just hunt them down - doesn't he says he's been tracking them for, like, years? - in order to kill Gast, but in order to capture the Ancient.

Gast and Ifalna are clearly very much in love, but one wonders how that came about - he must have seemed pretty hateful and ignorant to her to start with.

And Sephiroth liked and admired Gast. This is generally interpreted as evidence that Gast must have been a nice guy and maybe even a kind of father figure to Sephiroth - but I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that when Sephiroth likes and admires people, it means they're humane.

 

[jazzflower92]

Maybe we could take a third option and say that he might have had good intentions with the experimentation but soon realized that he had crossed the line as a scientists.A lot of people do stuff they think is good for humanity but later come to see that there actions were more harmful and dangerous.I think Gast is not a saint but at the same time its wrong to jump to the conclusion he is Hojo lite.Hojo lite would have to be Hollander in this case.I still think there was something likable about him to be so praised.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Oh, I agree with you, he's nothing like as bad as Hojo.

 

[ForceStealer]

Which is not really anything to be proud of

 

[Unlucky]

DoC is proof that some things are better left unknown. Aside from the Chaos-Omega details, it didn't really explain anything major, did it? I think it's an unnecessary addition to the compilation.

Unlike CC, which had the potential to be good, if it weren't for.. you know..

 

[jazzflower92]

Oh, I agree with you, he's nothing like as bad as Hojo.

It is why I believe even more that Gast's relationship with Lucrecia,Hojo,and Vincent should have been explored in DOC instead of putting in Grimoire who I think was just a cheap dramatic plot device.It could have been that Lucrecia was very attracted to Vincent but turned him down because she felt that Hojo needed her more because she perceived that he had an inferiority complex when it came to being a scientist and needed nurturing.

 

[Unlucky]

I think Gast fell in love with Ifalna because of the things she knew that he was so passionate about. He's the highly-educated scientist, but she knows more than him on the subject he has been studying, and that piqued his interest.

I'd like to think that he left Shinra knowing that they'll do him in. When it was found out that Jenova wasn't an Ancient, the department probably shifted its focus on Jenova instead, and being the head, he opposed to no avail. But he knew they won't let him leave. He's way too important to quit, moreso take with him his studies and continue them out of their watch. So before they could 'dispose' of him their way, he had to disappear.

 

[ForceStealer]

I dunno, Hojo didn't seem to have any trouble quitting. No one hunted him down.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, but the company was in turmoil - the President had just been assassinated by a super soldier they had all thought was dead, Sector 7 had just been dropped on itself, terrorists had just blown up two reactors, and the powers that be - the Turks? - were trying to ensure the smooth transition of power to Rufus in the midst of all this chaos. By the time Rufus gets to the Northern Crater, Hojo has rejoined Shinra - I don't remember if that was by choice, or whether he was coerced.

I've never read a fic that told the story of FFVII from Hojo's POV. It would be interesting, especially with such an unreliable narrator.

 

[Unlucky]

Because he came back to them? And probably 'retirement' was just a term.. he probably still had ties with them and they weren't on bad terms when he left briefly.

 

[ForceStealer]

Gast needed to be tracked down, but even if they didn't know where he was, the game implied he was still giving them research. It's not until Hojo shows up to take Aerith that Gast proclaims that he's severing all ties with the Shinra. (At least in English)

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, but the company was in turmoil - the President had just been assassinated by a super soldier they had all thought was dead, Sector 7 had just been dropped on itself, terrorists had just blown up two reactors, and the powers that be - the Turks? - were trying to ensure the smooth transition of power to Rufus in the midst of all this chaos. By the time Rufus gets to the Northern Crater, Hojo has rejoined Shinra - I don't remember if that was by choice, or whether he was coerced.

I've never read a fic that told the story of FFVII from Hojo's POV. It would be interesting, especially with such an unreliable narrator.

I think we never have a fic told from Hojo's POV because nobody really likes him all that much.