Evangelion

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i thought it was just a gainax thing to not manage big projects well and fumble at the end

anyway every day i don't get to watch 3+1 i am in tremendous physical and psychological pain, but i won't stoop to a camrip (which doesn't seem to be available anyway)
 

JBedford

Pro Adventurer
AKA
JBed
I was under the assumption the very reason they did the redub in the first place was because Khara wanted control of it. The dubs of Rebuild have had to go through the same shit with Khara.

I can't imagine it's anything to do with licensing. All ADV's other works when relicensed by other companies have kept their dubs.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i would like to see a comparison (does netflix have closed captioning for the new dub?), i know they did stuff like ‘third children’ and made kaworu say ‘worthy of grace’ but i haven’t watched any of the new dub

i haven’t even watched all the old dub in all these years because i just don’t like spike spencer(?) as shinji. I don’t tend to go out my way to watch english dub anyway but still
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I remember EoE pissing me off for the same reason the series did - building to an exciting climax and then just cutting away to nonsense. To say nothing of that scene doing a number on any lingering respect for Shinji I might have had.

After that I watched the first two parts of Rebuild knowing they'd be pretty cool but not really caring to watch all four since, you know, fool me once and all that.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I have to say that upon rewatching all of Evangelion, I think that there's a big part of the anime and of the films that are a matter of perspective. Like, if you're not into the existential and psychological metaphors that it's being monumentally blunt about with what the Evangelions are and what NERV's goals are, and the idea of what the Human Instrumentality Project is all about, then I can't imagine how on earth you'd enjoy the ending at all, since that's central to what the ending is demonstrating.

I unabashedly love the endings of the anime and of EoE, specifically because the concepts are really abstract, but god damn they're just... so good at portraying these sort of insane spiritual and existential concepts made into reality in a way that makes sense out of something so extremely disconnected from anything you'd be able to literally experience.

Somewhat related: Has anybody else here watched Gunbuster? I feel like that gives a really good sense of the way that Anno was thinking about storytelling going in to creating Evangelion.



X:neo:
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I'm probably going to need to watch it a few times before I really understand it. My big take away the first time is that Shinji is meant to be the deconstruction of the protagonist. Everything about him is set up to be the self-insert fantasy for young men who want to pilot big robots; he has next to no past, a very basic character design compared to the cute girls and handsome men who surround him, he's a child (many shows would have young protagonists without making a big thing out of it, because they think it will help their target demographic relate,) he hates his parental figure, and he's overall unremarkable. Yet he rejects the call to action again and again. He never learns to love the robot, he never grows, he never makes the quite girl open up or gets the aggressive girl to calm down and like him, he never does any "protagonist" things beyond begrudgingly going along with the call of the plot. He regresses, sinks further and further into himself and drives everyone away. Asuka becomes angrier and more resentful towards him until it all collapses and she becomes a depressed husk, Rei becomes more and more distant, and even the people who actually care about him are driven away. He utterly rejects his role at every turn, and in the end brings the whole story crashing down around him. The shadowy villains get what they want, the world ends, and even after deciding to give it another shot he immediately gives in to his worst urges and strangles Asuka. "How disgusting."

That's my initial take away from the story, anyway. I know the rebuild films are pseudo-sequels in some way because of remake discourse (I also notices Asuka has an eyepatch in rebuild, and she lost her eye in EoE.) Looking forward to seeing what that's all about.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Evangelion is about kids who grew up with a fundamental violation of the parent-child bond that expressed itself in how they interact with others, their self perception, etc. In Shinji's case his relationship with his living parents is very detached, and he's always feeling like his only form of acknowledgment is when he's being a means to an end for his dad, and that he isn't really ever genuinely loved by anyone just for who he is. That's why his relationship with Kaworu messes with him so much, because he experiences what it's like to just be genuinely loved and valued just for being himself. That's why he always runs away from piloting, because he never believes that the connection is genuine, and he only ever pilots the Eva for others, but not for himself.

In Asuka's case, her mom always saw her literally as nothing but an accessory extension of herself like a literal doll. Asuka desperately wanted not to be alone, but ultimately her mom didn't kill her when she committed suicide, so she always felt like she was a failure to that connection and that she was replaceable. It's why she's super precocious and over-focused on her own performance, when she's passively really jealous of things like when Shinji & Rei can sync up and keep in step with one another, because she is compelled to force herself to remain in a situation no matter what it means. She never pilots the Eva for other people, she only ever pilots it for herself.

That's why the Evangelions are LITERALLY built with the souls of the children's mothers, and they're being piloted by blurring the mother-child ego barrier to the point that, like when they were in the womb the child and mother shared a single existence. It's where all the AT field and Ego barrier stuff gets its foundation for the ideas around the Human Instrumentality Project. That's the fundamental basics of how they pilot the Evangelions, and why those relationships are really central to the themes of the story. That's why when they get the umbilical cables cut, they have a limited time to remain powered, and everything involves intentionally pushing the pilots into survival mode and experiencing primal panic to sort of traumatize them into a place where they know exactly how Shinji is going to respond in order to facilitate the third impact.

When it comes to Asuka & Shinji's relationship, that's why there are so many awkward pieces, because Asuka is always pushing Shinji because she wants him to show the type of strong emotional reactions that she needs to be able to believe, and why she has a line in the original ending that she wants him ONLY if he promises to be 100% hers and no one else's. By the same extension, Shinji can't get closer to her like that because he needs her to just be gentle and show that she loves him regardless of how capable he is or isn't. They both need the same things but from opposite directions, and thus their tendencies make a negative feedback off of each other until Shinji gets totally focused on piloting and Asuka totally loses her ability to sync at all.

EoE dials in on that EXTRA hard, with tons of symbolic representations of that, but the ending scene is where that's extremely prominently expressed. For the first time, Shinji isn't holding back on his emotions and is letting all of his pain and anger out and he's choking her to death, which is the exact moment that Asuka finally really feels genuine with him and reaches up to gently touch his face. – And the second that she does, he breaks down crying and stops doing what he was doing and wraps his aggressive emotions back into his head, which sends that discomfort back into Asuka and she calls him disgusting which is exactly what is the equivalent to what Shinji doesn't need, and leaves them both where they started. They're stuck with each other but they can't find a way to exist with each other that gives both of them what they need.

It's a psychological examination around how there's a very particular type of coping mechanisms of that type of abuse can make circumstances where people are almost exactly the same, but just end up fueling pain in each other. The two different coping strategies are reversed to one another, and rather than filling each other they just accelerate that pain. It's depressing because no matter how much they do or how hard they try to help each other out, they always end up pulling those things back down around them. Deep down you can see that they're both reflections of their parents' inner pain that got passed along – and those are the moments when they're syncing with their Evangelions outside of having a power source. The anime just sets that up in a way where the emotions they go through are also what shapes the entirety of literal reality around them.

There are similar things going on with Dr. Katsuragi, Misato, Kaji, and the other adults in their own struggling stages of becoming adults to the children, while they're not in a place where they're totally past the messed up relationship with their own parents, but they're trying to do so anyway, and then there's Rei in the position of being a clone of Shinji's mom and also trying to figure out the meaning of her own existence and her emotions.

Following the emotional dynamics of the parent-child relationships into what makes all of the characters who they are is what will give the most insight into the really messed up and abstract parts of Evangelion's endings, and also will help to give more context on why Rebuild does what it does, especially with Asuka's character.




X:neo:
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
One thing I like about the different retellings of Eva is that they're pretty consistently in the realm of AU. Whatever version pretty much exists as it's own thing, and isn't super reliant on any other version to get its messaging across.

The original anime is the first iteration. Both the original films happen concurrently with the anime, but can be viewed as an AU or simply retold from a different perspective. The manga is an AU by character designer Yoshiyuki Sadamoto. The official games are AU retellings, with varying degrees of involvement with Anno and Gainax.

imo, The Rebuild movies continue the trend of each piece of Eva being an alternate universe rather than outright chronological sequels. It gives Evangelion a sort of oral quality to it. Anno has said he would be happy for others to take on Evangelion and do their own thing with it, now that he is moving on. The story shifts and changes depending on the time and place it's told. The messaging about interpersonal relationships and complex trauma are central to every version, but the lens into those themes shift within the process of every production.

(As disturbing some of the behind the scenes stuff is, I cant help but appreciate how the process of animation/collaborative work feeds into the narrative/directorial choices... but that's going a bit off the point).
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i have dropped money on the reissued japanese bluray box. i was debating it with myself, it's not like the original version (which goes for like 35000 yen on auction sites now) and it's only missing a booklet and reproduced magazines. but it still just over 100 quid. but then i look at the contents and there's all these different versions of certain episodes and the live action part from eoe re-edited by anno and then i bought it. i didn't get the bd versions of 1.11 or 2.22 because i thought i should save a little bit of money

until next month, when i will get the set of anno's pre-godzilla live-action films for nearly the same price as this
 
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