Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)
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DutchDread
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- Dutch Dread
I am in agreement with the general "Aerith is trying to get Tifa and Cloud together", but not just because of some of the logical reasons mentioned before (she knows she dies, she knows Cloud isn't himself, etc), but because of a moral argument.
I think that if Aerith knew she could change fate and live, and that his feelings for her were actually genuine, despite the Zack aspect, I think she still would try to push Tifa and Cloud together, simply because honestly, not doing so would be a total bitch move.
I've heard people call Aerith a homewrecker in the past, and I never agreed with it, but if she were to actively pursue Cloud in the remake, then I would categorize her as such.
Aerith is friends with Tifa and Cloud and KNOWS they end up together in the original/real timeline. When your friends get together, you don't try to ruin their relationship and fuck your friends boyfriend.
If, by some miracle, you get access to a timemachine, that doesn't give you moral permission to go back in time and simply make sure the relationship never happens, that would be even worse.
Aerith knows she "lost" the rivalry, if time is reset, it's her duty as a friend to make sure that Cloud and Tifa end up together, not doing so would be morally WORSE than sleeping with your friends boyfriend, because while sleeping with him would merely ruin the relationship, this would make is so that the relationship never even happened, you'd rob them of their memories and time together.
Aerith has to root for Tifa and Cloud, otherwise she'd be an absolutely despicable human being imo.
I think that if Aerith knew she could change fate and live, and that his feelings for her were actually genuine, despite the Zack aspect, I think she still would try to push Tifa and Cloud together, simply because honestly, not doing so would be a total bitch move.
I've heard people call Aerith a homewrecker in the past, and I never agreed with it, but if she were to actively pursue Cloud in the remake, then I would categorize her as such.
Aerith is friends with Tifa and Cloud and KNOWS they end up together in the original/real timeline. When your friends get together, you don't try to ruin their relationship and fuck your friends boyfriend.
If, by some miracle, you get access to a timemachine, that doesn't give you moral permission to go back in time and simply make sure the relationship never happens, that would be even worse.
Aerith knows she "lost" the rivalry, if time is reset, it's her duty as a friend to make sure that Cloud and Tifa end up together, not doing so would be morally WORSE than sleeping with your friends boyfriend, because while sleeping with him would merely ruin the relationship, this would make is so that the relationship never even happened, you'd rob them of their memories and time together.
Aerith has to root for Tifa and Cloud, otherwise she'd be an absolutely despicable human being imo.
huh i dont think i agree lol.
aerith isn't morally obligated to make sure tifa and cloud get together. if the story progresses in a way where tifa and cloud drift apart and aerith/cloud happens that doesn't make aerith a bad person. the whole point of getting a "redo" is that things can change.
i would agree that aerith has an obligation to tell cloud/tifa that they ended up together in another timeline. and if aerith wanted to be a good friend she would probably get tifa's permission first. but beyond that, why on earth is aerith responsible for getting them together lmao?? like if tifa/cloud can't work it out that's on them.
Celesta
Pro Adventurer
Thanks for sharing, really appreciate this analysis. With regards to Aerith resolution I initially linked her words more to Cloud’s bout of survivors guilt and depression in ACC which hindered him from enjoying his life with Tifa and the children more so than the Highwind scene.
But the Highwind sexy time is happening for sure.
The obvious emphasis on tension between the characters in question and physical distance between them when they are really hot for each other/in love makes this an inevitability. And it after all it fits with this being Cloud’s hero/coming of age narrative as he’s emotionally and mentally 16 and there is content (I.e his catatonic state after Jessie kisses him and that Madam M handjob) that highlights his immaturity with regards to relating to women too.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I am actually in the camp of letting Tifa X Cloud work it out on their own to be honest. I never liked the idea of one needing permission to fall in love with someone, who in my opinion, already clearly have deep feelings for one another.
Time is important when it comes to these types of things. Cloud X Tifa need a bit of time to reconnect with each others hearts. The sexual tension between the two is there so they don't need a third person to help them fall in love. If it was meant to be than, it will be.
Although we are talking about fictional characters in a video game, this can also be said for real world relationships. Friends can nudge each other to go talk to that person, but your friends can't make you fall in love. That is up to the two individuals if they want to pursue it or not.
We have a good idea of how the story ends, the only thing left is just getting there. This time I think their relationship will be more fleshed out and leave no doubt type of storytelling, But who knows? Let's wait and see what happens...
Time is important when it comes to these types of things. Cloud X Tifa need a bit of time to reconnect with each others hearts. The sexual tension between the two is there so they don't need a third person to help them fall in love. If it was meant to be than, it will be.
Although we are talking about fictional characters in a video game, this can also be said for real world relationships. Friends can nudge each other to go talk to that person, but your friends can't make you fall in love. That is up to the two individuals if they want to pursue it or not.
We have a good idea of how the story ends, the only thing left is just getting there. This time I think their relationship will be more fleshed out and leave no doubt type of storytelling, But who knows? Let's wait and see what happens...
DutchDread
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- Dutch Dread
Because she's their friend. She isn't morally obligated to actively pursue it, but she is morally obligated to not stand in the way, and as a friend, she SHOULD actively try to help make sure it happens.
I think this becomes clear when you simply do a thought experiment. Let's say you have a best friend, you've known your best friend all your life, and you know his wife, and you know their love for each other, you were there when they met, you were the best man at their wedding, etc, and secretly, you've also always had a bit of a crush on his wife yourself, although you'd of course never dream of doing anything to get between them.
Your best friend also has an arch nemesis that enjoys messing with him. Through some weird circumstance you and the nemesis are sent back in time to before your best friend and his future wife meet.
Do you:
A: Preventively go to meet your mates future wife and take his place in the meeting so that you can end up marrying her.
B: Do nothing, but what happens happens.
C: Try to stop your friends arch nemesis from changing the timeline in such a way that your best friend might never end up meeting his wife?
In my opinion, A: Would be the morally reprehensible behavior of a psychopath, and B: would not be the behavior of a friend.
As my best friends mate I would feel like I owe it to him to be the best wingman I could be, anything else would feel like a betrayal. And likewise, if my friend went back in time and stopped me from meeting my wife, I would also view that as a betrayal of our friendship, and I would not want such a person as a friend. If your best friend did that to you? Would you not feel betrayed? I would.
If Aerith knows Tifa and Cloud ended up together, and yet tries to pursue him romantically anyway, that to me would make her a villain, not on the level of Sephiroth perhaps, but damn close to for instance Rufus. I would find it to be absolutely reprehensible behavior, and it would ruin her character for me.
You may disagree with me, but honestly, this one is pretty cut and dry to me, there are gray areas, but this ain't it imo, the kind of person I want as friends, would not do that.
no, i wouldn't feel betrayed because everything's different this time. i might feel a little pissed off if my friend didn't tell me that they know the fucking future lol. but if they tell me what's going on then i'm more than happy to let the pieces fall wherever they fall. i don't think aerith would ever actively try to take tifa's place, but if it happens naturally, then it happens.
DutchDread
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I can't say I understand that viewpoint but to each his own I suppose. If my friend who knows exactly what my wife means to me told me he was gonna go back in time and make sure I'd never meet her I'd punch his lights out, and if he told me he had already done so I'd never speak to him again, I don't see how things being different changes anything. But if that example didn't convince you, then I am not sure what else I could say.
One last example perhaps, what if you had loved a girl all your life, but it didn't work out, and as a result you became a depressed suicidal drunk, your friend then tells you that actually, you DID end up happy with her, but he went back in time to change that, that would not bother you?
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
If I might interfere I think both of you are missing each other's points here. The bolded part of @loozzer 's post pretty much solves most of the problems of @DutchDread's posts ( even tho I think DD's scenario was of an Aerith that actively pursues a relationship with Cloud despite knowing that, if she lets things run its course he would end up with Tifa while Loozer's scenario was of Cloud and Aerith somehow working out and deciding to be together while fully aware of their 'other' destinies (and letting Tifa knowing it as well ofc).
In my personal opinion, both of you are somehow right in your own scenarios.
An Aerith that is fully aware of everyone's destiny actively putting herself as an obstacle in Cloud and Tifa's relationship while they aren't aware of their own future together is bad, not as bad as DD stated imo ( we would need to know the circumstances to judge that), but still bad because it would be an interference in someone's future/destiny without their consent.
However, an Aerith and a Cloud that are fully aware of their future and options, but decided to be together despite everything are absolutely okay in my book too, because that was a choice they made while fully knowing everything. In this scenario, you can't blame Aerith because Cloud chooses to be with her in the end. It was his/their choice after all.
And honestly? I don't think we should worry too much about any of this. There's no enough indication that Aerith is fully aware of her future, but only that she has certain glimpses of what will happen. We don't even know the extend of her power or how much she knows up until know tbh. Everything is pretty much speculation at this point.
I agree with you. But in my opinion, just I don't know if it is feasible to put efforts on this route. They have to address Zack, Tifa, and Cloud childhood romance to Tifa first, which they already put lots of efforts on describing it. And that will downplay the role of Tifa in the whole FF7 universe since they declared to balance between Tifa and Aerith. Aerith already has a very important role to fight against Sephiroth, how much room is left for her to be in an relationship without making Tifa less importance to Cloud. It is really an effort for Nojima.
DutchDread
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Well, the reason I didn't address the "she needs to tell them" point is because I don't think telling them constitutes "fully knowing everything". You can tell me I loved someone with all my heart, but unless I actually remember and experience those things, I can't really pretend to be properly informed, merely saying it simply lacks impact.
If Aerith were to touch Tifa and Cloud and both of them would life through their lives together up till the point of divergence, experiencing all of it as if it actually happened, and THEN decided to split up, then maybe I could let that go, although even there, if only one person wants to split up I imagine I'd still have problems with the person who set this scenario in motion, and think that she SHOULD have just said nothing and let the future happen. But without that fully informed consent, I can't justify it morally.
And since I don't think Aerith will ever get fully informed consent. I think that as a friend, she should be the best wingman possible and simply not interfere with their relationship, and help with the occasional "follow your heart" when necessary.
Which she seems to be doing, so, good on her.
As Tifa, I could, and would, still fully hate her for doing that. Just because my husband is fully informed, doesn't mean you get to sleep with him. Tifa would need to properly informed and be ok with Aerith taking her lover away from her, not just Cloud. It's ME my friend is screwing over by sleeping with my husband, not my husband.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I do get your point that being informed is different from "living/feeling it". You're right! That's why messing with different timelines is so fucked up, there's a lot to consider before acting on it. However, I don't think it's right to put such a weight on Aerith alone. If Cloud somehow decided to be with her while knowing the consequences of his acts and Tifa gave them their blessing somehow, then it would be truly 'wrong'. Even if we didn't like the outcome of this. Yeah, it would be kinda messed up, but not totally wrong.
Also, it's not Aerith's responsibility to push them together either. By simply letting things run its course she would be doing a lot imo.
That said, I do agree that if she does know everything than the chances are that she will step out and let things run its course simply because going a different route may end up leading to people interpret her character in a wrong way and I don't think the devs would want that.
If they want to make CxA happen is much easier to follow a route where Aerith isn't fully aware of their future. There would be no need to put such a weight or her shoulders.
Yes, there would be a lot to considered and to be addressed if they followed that route, but tbh, for now, I don't think this is even a possibility. There's a lot of ways to make CxA canon without need to go down this route if they even want that.
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DutchDread
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Heej, I am not saying it's her sacred duty to get them together, and that whatever happens is on her, I think the weight is pretty small, "don't try to seduce your friends dude, and generally try to be supportive", you know, the same stuff a friend is normally expected to do/be anyway. Stuff can still happen, she's not the puppetmaster of fate, but I would not think of it as being a particular load on my shoulders to not sleep with my mates wife in the past.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Here are some pictures.
I am not exactly sure what and why her hand is where it is.
Thinking of Cloud.
I love this one! Putting each others couple earrings in!
I am not exactly sure what and why her hand is where it is.
Thinking of Cloud.I love this one! Putting each others couple earrings in!
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Thanks! But somehow I can not imagine other route. Unless they don't do the lifestream sequence but that seems impossible and Re has already given lots of hints of the past of Cloud. Also Tifa is written to address Cloud's character arc development. But who knows, I am thinking about Dragon Age, which I had great expectation and constantly got disappointed, not everyone can do as great as Witcher, Uncharted and red dead redemption for a series of games. Just my best wishes to land Cloti canon lol.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
But I actually agreed with you. If she's fully aware of everyone's fate then she will prob step out (bc that's how I perceive Aerith to be, she cares too much for both Cloud and Tifa to even decided to put herself btw them). I was just saying that it isn't right to put such a weight ( aka get Cloud and Tifa together) on her shoulders. Simply let things run its course would be enough.
As far as we are now aka part 1, I'm still not worried that they'll not follow the OG route = Cloti. I just don't like to take the cards out of the table before the game ends, but that's just how I prefer to behave ^^ Don't let me put doubts in your mind D: For now, I think you can be pretty optimistic regarding Cloti (I am at least)
edit: typos. I should read my posts bf press post
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Yeah！I am looking forward to 4k wheel chair scene!As far as we are now aka part 1, I still not worried that they will not follow the OG route aka Cloti, but I'm just don't like to take the cards out of the table before the game ends, but that's just how I prefer to behave ^^ But don't let me put doubts in your mind, really!! For now I think you can be pretty optimistic regarding Cloti (I am at least)
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Guys, this is what I love about this thread. This whole conversation was very insightful. I love when everyone can theory craft like this. I think that we have some of the best ideas and minds right here in this club. It has been and continues to be very enjoyable, for me. 
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I agree! It's really great that we can have discussions like this even among us Agreeing and disagreeing is a part of it and it's what keeps discussions alive, and by keeping it alive we can explore and discuss a lot of good scenarios that may happen in the future. It's all nice, really ^^
Agreeing and disagreeing is a part of it and it's what keeps discussions alive, and by keeping it alive we can explore and discuss a lot of good scenarios that may happen in the future. It's all nice, really ^^
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Ok! Time to my usual fanart dump of the day lol 
Shadowfox
You look like you need a monkey
Stepping in late here, but hope you'll indulge me on my two cents.
Right now, I think Aerith, especially if she has mystically gained the knowledge of the OG events, would step back because she's more aware of Cloud's messed up mental situation. Her dialling back on romantic intentions isn't necessarily about making sure Tifa and Cloud get together, but more about recognising that Cloud needs to sort his internal issues first before getting into any romantic shenanigans. IOW, she's doing what OG Tifa was doing.
Close bonds will still continue developing between Cloud and the two women, and while some of that closeness may hint of romance, I don't expect it to be due to actual active pursuit of romance.
If -- and this is a big if -- the Remake makes it seem that Tifa and true Cloud mutually drift apart from one another after all the internal issues are properly sorted out, and Aerith survives, then, yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with Aerith and Cloud giving romance a try.
Yep. Canon Aerith isn't a homewrecker. By AC she knows that true Cloud has loved Tifa for so long and they're both in a relationship. Dead or not, canon Aerith is the type who would gracefully step back and be genuinely happy for them. I believe that Remake Aerith too would not be stepping in between two people who love each other and want to be together.
Right now, I think Aerith, especially if she has mystically gained the knowledge of the OG events, would step back because she's more aware of Cloud's messed up mental situation. Her dialling back on romantic intentions isn't necessarily about making sure Tifa and Cloud get together, but more about recognising that Cloud needs to sort his internal issues first before getting into any romantic shenanigans. IOW, she's doing what OG Tifa was doing.
Close bonds will still continue developing between Cloud and the two women, and while some of that closeness may hint of romance, I don't expect it to be due to actual active pursuit of romance.
If -- and this is a big if -- the Remake makes it seem that Tifa and true Cloud mutually drift apart from one another after all the internal issues are properly sorted out, and Aerith survives, then, yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with Aerith and Cloud giving romance a try.
Yep. Canon Aerith isn't a homewrecker. By AC she knows that true Cloud has loved Tifa for so long and they're both in a relationship. Dead or not, canon Aerith is the type who would gracefully step back and be genuinely happy for them. I believe that Remake Aerith too would not be stepping in between two people who love each other and want to be together.
iamhorde
Pro Adventurer
If, and this is a big IF, what you said does come to pass, we could be seeing a whole different LTD between Zerith and Clerith. From the way FF7R seems to be setting things up though, it's more likely to be Cloud x Tifa & Zack x Aerith, well balanced.
But since we're talking big IFs and alternate timelines / universe, a Zack x Tifa and Cloud x Aerith pairing might kinda work too. I could see Zack's more optimistic worldview and positive spirit rubbing off on Tifa. Tifa has always been there supporting Cloud and helping him to find his true self, everything she's done so far has been pretty selfless, perhaps Zack for a change could be Tifa's support. I'm digressing, just really think Tifa deserves someone great after all that she's been through.
Side note, if SE weaves in Zack for part 2 from the get go, perhaps the LTD might be over sooner than we think.
Sasseli
~*:Newbie:*~
No, it definitely would NOT work! The thought alone is absolutely horrifying 
Tifa needs Cloud and that’s that. Nothing else would work, seriously. That’s like saying, Katara and Zuko and Aang and... dunno, Toph? Or Naruto and Sakura *shudders* . That goes against everything the stories established.
I agree, if Zack shows up in everyone’s timeline, the LTD is as good as over. Because Aerith loves Zack and Cloud loves Tifa. That’s the unchangeable story.
Tifa needs Cloud and that’s that. Nothing else would work, seriously. That’s like saying, Katara and Zuko and Aang and... dunno, Toph? Or Naruto and Sakura *shudders* . That goes against everything the stories established.
I agree, if Zack shows up in everyone’s timeline, the LTD is as good as over. Because Aerith loves Zack and Cloud loves Tifa. That’s the unchangeable story.