Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
HOLD IT RIGHT THERE! That is not true at all. It's just a myth perpetuated by the fandom. I’ll get to this below.
We agree on that first paragraph. As for the bolded part, I don’t really give too much stock on Toriyama’s pronouncements post-DB/DBZ because god knows how that guy doesn’t give a shit about his creation, and that interview of his about
Where do I even begin? It’s been so long since I touched anything DB/DBZ-related so I’m just gonna write my thoughts on this subject citing examples of events on the top of my head.
I always found Goku to be a fascinating character. At first glance, we are led to believe that he is stupid, but he really isn’t; he’s just ignorant due largely to his years of isolation in the wild. His perceived stupidity is rooted in his ignorance of societal cues and of developments outside of his own little world. But when he is presented with perspective and context, he does show to pick up on things fast. The guy’s certainly a fast learner, and this is manifested mostly in his battle prowess (he is a fighting prodigy), on which his brain is predisposed to and wired as part of an alien warrior race. The other characters even take note of this and express surprise to find out that Goku isn’t stupid as they thought he is after all.
Over the course of the story, he learns certain social cues that injects a level of maturity in his future actions and interactions with people, and at times even displays a level of emotional maturity higher than others. When it comes to matters that he can relate, Goku shows surprising empathy, as seen with his interactions with Upa and Upa’s father. But Goku can also be a chilling, insensitive motherfucker, especially when it comes to things that he cannot relate. Adult Goku also hints that he isn’t as innocent as he once was when he used Videl and Bulma as bargaining tools to get favors from the Grand Supreme Kai. When he learned of Krillin and 18 having a kid, his main concern was how a robot was able to conceive a child, indicating that he knew the process. Goku learned about sexuality, guys, if the existence of his two sons wasn’t obvious enough. That doesn’t make him un-pure, though. That only means that he learned and demonstrates that he is not a total idiot. He’s just insensitive at times and mostly battle-focused.
And yet despite being predisposed to preferring battles and his insensitivity, Goku is not incapable of feelings and love for those who he deems close---his family most of all; he just does not show affection that one would normally expect (because Goku is not normal), but his actions in subtle ways do inform us that he values his family more than his friends and strangers, and that he wasn’t always a deadbeat father. He never was a deadbeat father.
People always point out Goku’s years-long absences as proof of him being a deadbeat and thus a horrible father, but that is forgetting the fact that most of his absences was spent with him being DEAD and thus had no choice on the matter. Let’s not forget that after the 23rd Budokai when the Earth was at peace, Goku spent the next five years in peace with his wife, and eventually son (whom he dotes on as told by Piccolo and Gohan himself), in their quiet home in Mount Paozu. It never even occurred in his mind to contact his friends Bulma, Krillin, et al during those five years of peace; he was just alone with his family. Gohan, his son, adores Goku and worships the ground he walks on. When we first meet Gohan, he’s shown to be clearly attached to his father. This suggests that Goku WAS a constant presence in Gohan’s childhood and that when at times of peace, Goku does stay at home with his family and does not wander (he stays with his family again for the next ten years when he got revived at the end of Buu Saga until he left to train Uub to be the next Earth’s defender, but still promising to return from time to time). But Toriyama and DBS forgot about this again in exchange for cheap laughs to the detriment of how Goku’s character is perceived in the fandom.
When Gohan was first kidnapped by Raditz, his reaction was that of a father despairing that his child was taken away from him. He pushed his pride aside and teamed up with Piccolo in order to save his son from his estranged alien brother. During the fight with Raditz, when he learned that there are far stronger enemies (Vegeta and Nappa) on their way to the Earth to get the dragon balls, Goku actually contradicted Piccolo’s impression of him. Piccolo told him he must be excited at the thought of having to fight stronger foes, but Goku actually told him that, while normally he would be, he’s more scared than excited and if given the choice, he’d rather not have to fight them (because he acknowledges that the Saiyans’ presence on Earth endangers his family’s wellbeing and that of the Earth), which suggests that Goku was not always a battle maniac and that he is capable of tempering his thirst for a good battle when it comes to the safety of the greater good (a character trait of Goku that DBS forgot and threw out of the window… AGAIN). When Goku was beaten by Raditz, Gohan was angered enough that an evil man was hurting his father. Goku begged Raditz to spare and not hurt Gohan. And then he died. Goku DIED trying to save his son. But before finally croaking, Goku instructed his friends to return Gohan to his mother with his dying breath. That is not what a horrible father makes.
When Piccolo was training Gohan in preparation for the Saiyans, Piccolo commented on how coddled Gohan is by his parents. He mentioned at how soft and doting Goku and Chi-Chi were with Gohan as evinced by how spoiled Gohan has become. We are told that Goku IS soft and doting on his child. This was referenced again in the Cell Saga when Goku was training Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Gohan was utterly frustrated with his father because Goku keeps on coddling him to the detriment of his development as a fighter, so much so that Gohan shouted at his father to take his training seriously and only then did Goku relent. Again, Goku is not only told to be a coddling parent, he is also shown to be one. He is a coddling and doting parent. How does that make him a horrible father?
The last few days leading up to the Cell tournament, Goku spent them with his family (with Krillin tagging along). Whether that be because he had a feeling he’ll die or not, the fact is that he chose to lay low on training and instead spent those days with his family---not with his battle friends, not with his other long-time friends, not with strangers. He spent them peacefully with HIS FAMILY. And as an aside, he also specifically told Gohan to not return home and stay with Dende on the Lookout for a few days. That leaves Goku alone with his wife in their home in Mt. Paozu. Take from that what you will. The next thing we know, they have a second child named Goten (but Goten’s matter of conception is another can of worms that messes with the timeline so I’m not even go further into that rabbit hole because Toriyama can’t be arsed to give a fuck about consistency).
When he died the second time in the Cell Saga, his last words were to Gohan: that he was proud of him, and to tell his mother he was sorry for always giving her a hard time. In the Buu Saga when his one-day ‘vacation’ was about to end, he told Goten he was proud of him and to look after his mother in his place. Then when Goku saw Gohan again in the world of the kais, he again told him how proud he is of the man Gohan has become despite having been absent the past seven years of Gohan’s life. Goku is shown time and again to be tender, and at times even affectionate (he gives his children hugs and head pats as his showcase of affection), with the members of his immediate family, esp. his sons (Gohan most of all). He does not have these moments of tenderness with his friends. His affection for his wife isn’t as pronounced and because he is averse to PDAs. But it is pretty telling that he always listens to her and asks for her permission with regards to matters concerning their children, constantly has in his mind what she has to say when things go awry (“Chi-Chi will yell at me for this”, “Chi-Chi will have a fit when she sees/gets a hold of this”, “Chi-Chi won’t like this”, “I’ll have to ask Chi-Chi first”, etc. etc.), and always returns to her after his grand adventure. But I’m less concerned about his reputation as a husband and more about his enduring image in the fandom as a father and a man who willfully abandons his family, which is not true at all. Literally the reason why he chose to stay dead the second time was because he deemed himself a danger to the people he cares about and to the Earth (which is a stupid reason, imo, but eh…). His decision hurt his family as a consequence, but his intention was never to hurt them but rather more to protect them.
If there was a horrible father, it would have to be Vegeta. That’s exactly part of his character arc. He needed to learn to value his family and accept how happy they made him, which culminates in his dramatic sacrifice that further contributed to the bulk of Vegeta’s appeal---a bad guy turned good guy because ‘love’. But Goku doesn’t need that kind of turn, because he already values his family from the very beginning and continues to be happy with them. He loves them the best as he can (despite his brain damage) and shows this love in subtle, not-entirely-conscious of ways. And his family loves and adores him in return. I feel like if we are to judge Goku as a father, then we should look at it in the eyes of his children. Gohan and Goten harbor no resentment towards him. On the contrary, they are very admiring of their father and always vie for his attention. That should tell us how he is as a father behind the closed doors of their home. His wife also didn't remarry the seven years he was dead, and instead remained faithful and continues to shower him with unconditional love. That is not an attitude of a neglected wife.
Sorry, that diatribe ended up too long. It's just the notion that "Goku is a horrible father" is a pet-peeve of mine when it comes to DB. To me, it's of the same level as with the misrepresentations some of the fandom has of Cloud and Tifa's relationship relative to the FFVII LTD. And it's even worse because it seems that most of the DB fandom actually believes it to be true. At least CloTi has a lot of defenders and majority of the fandom do not believe the misrepresentations of the more extreme Clerith fandom.
I always found Goku to be a fascinating character. At first glance, we are led to believe that he is stupid, but he really isn’t; he’s just ignorant due largely to his years of isolation in the wild. His perceived stupidity is rooted in his ignorance of societal cues and of developments outside of his own little world. But when he is presented with perspective and context, he does show to pick up on things fast. The guy’s certainly a fast learner, and this is manifested mostly in his battle prowess (he is a fighting prodigy), on which his brain is predisposed to and wired as part of an alien warrior race. The other characters even take note of this and express surprise to find out that Goku isn’t stupid as they thought he is after all.
Over the course of the story, he learns certain social cues that injects a level of maturity in his future actions and interactions with people, and at times even displays a level of emotional maturity higher than others. When it comes to matters that he can relate, Goku shows surprising empathy, as seen with his interactions with Upa and Upa’s father. But Goku can also be a chilling, insensitive motherfucker, especially when it comes to things that he cannot relate. Adult Goku also hints that he isn’t as innocent as he once was when he used Videl and Bulma as bargaining tools to get favors from the Grand Supreme Kai. When he learned of Krillin and 18 having a kid, his main concern was how a robot was able to conceive a child, indicating that he knew the process. Goku learned about sexuality, guys, if the existence of his two sons wasn’t obvious enough. That doesn’t make him un-pure, though. That only means that he learned and demonstrates that he is not a total idiot. He’s just insensitive at times and mostly battle-focused.
And yet despite being predisposed to preferring battles and his insensitivity, Goku is not incapable of feelings and love for those who he deems close---his family most of all; he just does not show affection that one would normally expect (because Goku is not normal), but his actions in subtle ways do inform us that he values his family more than his friends and strangers, and that he wasn’t always a deadbeat father. He never was a deadbeat father.
People always point out Goku’s years-long absences as proof of him being a deadbeat and thus a horrible father, but that is forgetting the fact that most of his absences was spent with him being DEAD and thus had no choice on the matter. Let’s not forget that after the 23rd Budokai when the Earth was at peace, Goku spent the next five years in peace with his wife, and eventually son (whom he dotes on as told by Piccolo and Gohan himself), in their quiet home in Mount Paozu. It never even occurred in his mind to contact his friends Bulma, Krillin, et al during those five years of peace; he was just alone with his family. Gohan, his son, adores Goku and worships the ground he walks on. When we first meet Gohan, he’s shown to be clearly attached to his father. This suggests that Goku WAS a constant presence in Gohan’s childhood and that when at times of peace, Goku does stay at home with his family and does not wander (he stays with his family again for the next ten years when he got revived at the end of Buu Saga until he left to train Uub to be the next Earth’s defender, but still promising to return from time to time). But Toriyama and DBS forgot about this again in exchange for cheap laughs to the detriment of how Goku’s character is perceived in the fandom.
When Gohan was first kidnapped by Raditz, his reaction was that of a father despairing that his child was taken away from him. He pushed his pride aside and teamed up with Piccolo in order to save his son from his estranged alien brother. During the fight with Raditz, when he learned that there are far stronger enemies (Vegeta and Nappa) on their way to the Earth to get the dragon balls, Goku actually contradicted Piccolo’s impression of him. Piccolo told him he must be excited at the thought of having to fight stronger foes, but Goku actually told him that, while normally he would be, he’s more scared than excited and if given the choice, he’d rather not have to fight them (because he acknowledges that the Saiyans’ presence on Earth endangers his family’s wellbeing and that of the Earth), which suggests that Goku was not always a battle maniac and that he is capable of tempering his thirst for a good battle when it comes to the safety of the greater good (a character trait of Goku that DBS forgot and threw out of the window… AGAIN). When Goku was beaten by Raditz, Gohan was angered enough that an evil man was hurting his father. Goku begged Raditz to spare and not hurt Gohan. And then he died. Goku DIED trying to save his son. But before finally croaking, Goku instructed his friends to return Gohan to his mother with his dying breath. That is not what a horrible father makes.
When Piccolo was training Gohan in preparation for the Saiyans, Piccolo commented on how coddled Gohan is by his parents. He mentioned at how soft and doting Goku and Chi-Chi were with Gohan as evinced by how spoiled Gohan has become. We are told that Goku IS soft and doting on his child. This was referenced again in the Cell Saga when Goku was training Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Gohan was utterly frustrated with his father because Goku keeps on coddling him to the detriment of his development as a fighter, so much so that Gohan shouted at his father to take his training seriously and only then did Goku relent. Again, Goku is not only told to be a coddling parent, he is also shown to be one. He is a coddling and doting parent. How does that make him a horrible father?
The last few days leading up to the Cell tournament, Goku spent them with his family (with Krillin tagging along). Whether that be because he had a feeling he’ll die or not, the fact is that he chose to lay low on training and instead spent those days with his family---not with his battle friends, not with his other long-time friends, not with strangers. He spent them peacefully with HIS FAMILY. And as an aside, he also specifically told Gohan to not return home and stay with Dende on the Lookout for a few days. That leaves Goku alone with his wife in their home in Mt. Paozu. Take from that what you will. The next thing we know, they have a second child named Goten (but Goten’s matter of conception is another can of worms that messes with the timeline so I’m not even go further into that rabbit hole because Toriyama can’t be arsed to give a fuck about consistency).
When he died the second time in the Cell Saga, his last words were to Gohan: that he was proud of him, and to tell his mother he was sorry for always giving her a hard time. In the Buu Saga when his one-day ‘vacation’ was about to end, he told Goten he was proud of him and to look after his mother in his place. Then when Goku saw Gohan again in the world of the kais, he again told him how proud he is of the man Gohan has become despite having been absent the past seven years of Gohan’s life. Goku is shown time and again to be tender, and at times even affectionate (he gives his children hugs and head pats as his showcase of affection), with the members of his immediate family, esp. his sons (Gohan most of all). He does not have these moments of tenderness with his friends. His affection for his wife isn’t as pronounced and because he is averse to PDAs. But it is pretty telling that he always listens to her and asks for her permission with regards to matters concerning their children, constantly has in his mind what she has to say when things go awry (“Chi-Chi will yell at me for this”, “Chi-Chi will have a fit when she sees/gets a hold of this”, “Chi-Chi won’t like this”, “I’ll have to ask Chi-Chi first”, etc. etc.), and always returns to her after his grand adventure. But I’m less concerned about his reputation as a husband and more about his enduring image in the fandom as a father and a man who willfully abandons his family, which is not true at all. Literally the reason why he chose to stay dead the second time was because he deemed himself a danger to the people he cares about and to the Earth (which is a stupid reason, imo, but eh…). His decision hurt his family as a consequence, but his intention was never to hurt them but rather more to protect them.
If there was a horrible father, it would have to be Vegeta. That’s exactly part of his character arc. He needed to learn to value his family and accept how happy they made him, which culminates in his dramatic sacrifice that further contributed to the bulk of Vegeta’s appeal---a bad guy turned good guy because ‘love’. But Goku doesn’t need that kind of turn, because he already values his family from the very beginning and continues to be happy with them. He loves them the best as he can (despite his brain damage) and shows this love in subtle, not-entirely-conscious of ways. And his family loves and adores him in return. I feel like if we are to judge Goku as a father, then we should look at it in the eyes of his children. Gohan and Goten harbor no resentment towards him. On the contrary, they are very admiring of their father and always vie for his attention. That should tell us how he is as a father behind the closed doors of their home. His wife also didn't remarry the seven years he was dead, and instead remained faithful and continues to shower him with unconditional love. That is not an attitude of a neglected wife.
Sorry, that diatribe ended up too long. It's just the notion that "Goku is a horrible father" is a pet-peeve of mine when it comes to DB. To me, it's of the same level as with the misrepresentations some of the fandom has of Cloud and Tifa's relationship relative to the FFVII LTD. And it's even worse because it seems that most of the DB fandom actually believes it to be true. At least CloTi has a lot of defenders and majority of the fandom do not believe the misrepresentations of the more extreme Clerith fandom.
Edited because I realize I missed to address another major argument of "Goku is a horrible father"...
During Gohan's fight with Cell. People love to point out that he allowed his son to get beaten, but that wasn't the case at all. Goku BELIEVES in Gohan. He trained him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. He has seen Gohan's potential and he knows that Gohan CAN defeat Cell, hence, he was overconfident enough to give Cell a senzu bean and not intervene with Gohan's fight. But this is his huge mistake not only as a person, but as a father (his one of many). He failed to understand Gohan, his son, as a person. He always believed Gohan was just like him, someone who loves battles. As a warrior, Goku also wants to see his son become one and take pride in the fact that his son is strong. But Gohan, while incredibly strong, is a pacifist and not predisposed to be a warrior like him. Once Goku realizes this after being confronted by Piccolo, he panics and asks for a senzu bean WITH FULL INTENTION OF INTERVENING. He didn't take a few minutes to deliberate on this; he took action the moment realization hits.
Once he accepted who Gohan is and what Gohan wants to become (that is, to become a scholar), Goku accepts and supports this wholeheartedly, all the while saying he is proud of him. Goku cares for his son enough that he allows him to be his own person and not push his own ideals on him. This is unlike Vegeta with Trunks. Mayhaps this is what Toriyama meant when he says Goku does not view his family as 'family', in that Goku does not view his family (sons, for that matter) as extensions of himself but as their own separate persons. He considers his sons' achievements as their own and not his. That while he can be proud as their father and of what they have achieved, he will never take credit for their achievement. In contrast with Vegeta who views Trunks' achievements as his. That's just my interpretation. But either way, I still don't put too much weight in Toriyama's words as regards to that one.
Once he accepted who Gohan is and what Gohan wants to become (that is, to become a scholar), Goku accepts and supports this wholeheartedly, all the while saying he is proud of him. Goku cares for his son enough that he allows him to be his own person and not push his own ideals on him. This is unlike Vegeta with Trunks. Mayhaps this is what Toriyama meant when he says Goku does not view his family as 'family', in that Goku does not view his family (sons, for that matter) as extensions of himself but as their own separate persons. He considers his sons' achievements as their own and not his. That while he can be proud as their father and of what they have achieved, he will never take credit for their achievement. In contrast with Vegeta who views Trunks' achievements as his. That's just my interpretation. But either way, I still don't put too much weight in Toriyama's words as regards to that one.
DB was even hardly my favorite battle shounen anime show in its time because that show has a lot of issues. I always was a YYH over DB/Yusuke > Goku guy that I even got into arguments over it; and I still am to this day. But nobody talks about YYH anymore
whereas DB recently had Super which reawakened people's interests and perpetuated these misrepresentations. The writing in DB was never its strongest suit. There’s just a lot of inconsistencies. I always treated it as nothing but a fun, braindead flashy action show, but I did like Goku’s character quite possibly the most and his father-son relationship with Gohan was my favorite dynamic of the show (if that wasn’t obvious enough), although I did also like his dynamic with Vegeta and Piccolo. I also agree about Vegeta’s character progression (which is too in-your-face) and at one point he was my favorite character in the show. But then I look back and ruminate on Goku’s character, and I’m reminded of his subtlety and I like him more again. Furthermore, Vegeta’s his heel-face turn is just inherently more compelling than Goku’s who was already a good guy to begin with, which just adds to Vegeta’s appeal.Which again brings me to why I abhor DBS. Goku’s character there is the most flanderized. Even Vegeta (and all of his character development) is squandered. Heck, everyone’s character there (sans maybe 17 and Frieza) was squandered and butchered beyond recognition. I barely recognize anyone in it. It’s like the show took the characters’ single most-recognizable trait and magnified it to ridiculous proportions, abandoning the other traits that made the characters slightly interesting in the first place. And this is just the matter of characters already existing before Super; the show has other egregious faults, too, with its new characters, quality of writing in each arc, power-scaling inconsistencies (DBZ is also guilty of this, admittedly), you name it. God, I hate that cash-grab show. I hope Toriyama just let this franchise die and stop ruining the franchise further, but alas… we can’t have good things. And despite everything, I do have a lot of fond memories with DB (mainly my experience of watching it together with my childhood friends). It’s not my favorite (never was), but I do despair at what it has become.
But anyway, I have digressed. This is the CloTi thread and all I gotta say is that CloTi is canon. Always was and still is.
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When he's with his kids, it's clear Goku loves them, but it's the end of DBZ that has pissed me off, with him going who the fuck knows where to train the reincarnation of I don't remember his name. I was seriously shocked at how that was handled sooooooo flippantly.
Can't believe shipping causes people to think they have to pick sides so aggressively. Enjoying both is the best way to consume this game.
