Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Cloud and Tifa are coming to wotv, and they look pretty hot :mon:
Damn, that's honestly one of the best Tifa renditions I've seen, I like the artwork where she looks cool. My one, not complaint, but personal taste issue, with Remake Tifa is that she looks too soft and sweet, when I've always pictured her more cool looking, with harder lines contrasting her personality. They also made her legs rather thin which makes her feel less powerful than on this image.

Favorite is still the g-bike one, just looks a bit stronger and more mature, beautiful rather than cute I suppose.
 

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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I stumbled on this quote in that tumblr:

As a small boy, he didn’t get along with others apart from Tifa. So when Tifa’s mother died and three of her friends decided to take her up the mountains where the dead were believed to go, Cloud wasn’t invited. But even so, Cloud secretly went after them wanting to cheer Tifa up-Cloud profile AC prologue.
It made me instantly think about the new scene in chapter 1 with little!Tifa calling out to Cloud. I feel that while this was an early idea and the reason why Cloud did fall in love with Tifa at such a young age, it was never properly shown in the OG: that he did get along with Tifa, despite his difficult character, was touched by her gentleness, but didn't go often with her since there were always those three boys surrounding her with whom he didn't get along - and even less after they fell in the mountain.

This certainly means that we are going to see this explained and expanded upon a little bit, probably in the Lifestream scene. That chapter 1 scene certainly feels like it happened *after* they fell in the mountains, however since the other boys are with her, it could be before. But she seems bummed that he doesn't answer once again, which gives certainly the impression that he used to, at least to some level.
 
Sorry for the double post. This is a theory post, but since it might be too cloti, I rather post it here.

Since I've been reading this thread in reddit, I've been thinking. This is certainly the source of the uneasiness in the fandom re: Tifa's fate, and why so many think she might die this time around. This thread got me thinking, and definitely looking at more details that should and will be used in the Lifestream scene in Remake.

It is very clear that this Sephiroth does *not* like Tifa one bit. For him to talk to Cloud or Aerith is normal, and he doesn't aknowledge Barret or Red XIII. However, he does aknowledge Tifa. And he wants her away - away from Cloud, that is. I've been siding with MakoEyes into thinking that this chapter 18 Sephiroth is one who comes from the far future, when the Planet is dying, and facing his own death, he goes back in time because he needs Jenova's power to hop from planet to planet.

Chapter 18!Sephiroth, if he really comes from the far future as some of us suspect, then has lived through the OG and ACC. Without knowing the details, he probably understands Tifa's role in pushing the real Cloud to find himself. And thus, leading to his own demise, twice! So because he wants Cloud as a pawn, he needs her to not succeed into helping Cloud. And I think there are already the seeds for the Lifestream scene, on both sides! Let's see what I think will be reused:

- chapter 01: Tifa's flashback. This will definitely get added in the "I'm the real Cloud" box, with more context about what it was.
- chapter 02: Nibelheim in flames with Sephiroth killing Cloud's mum. This could go either way. I think, looking back at this flashback, that it's very interesting, the way they've inserted it - can Cloud trust it? Maybe it's real, maybe it's fake? I mean, it's 99% certainly real, but the way it's presented, with Sephiroth talking all over and appearing there, it's bound to create some sense of insecurity regarding Cloud's memories.
- chapter 04: the promise scene; very interestingly, they've closed a hole there. Whether he remembered by himself or not, one could have said that in the OG, Cloud's memory could have plugged into Tifa's memory through Jenova to imagine the scene - and it was THE memory that kept him on the sane side, that he was a real person. Here it is not the case, Cloud remembers it by himself. I feel this is important, because it's something that must absolutely not be attacked - it was the basis of Cloud's thinking he was Cloud from Nibelheim in the OG, and this will be strengthened.
- chapter 08: Tifa's second flashback, which will certainly be the day both her and Cloud fell in the mountains - so it will get explained more, with more context, just like chapter 01's flashback will certainly get expanded on.

There is also much to say about Sephiroth making Cloud see him kill both Tifa and Barret in the Shinra Tower, and how that puts Cloud on the edge - I've always believed that Cloud's save for Tifa during the Whispers' fight in chapter 18 was caused by this vision. Because he was on the edge because of this vision - you can see him turning to Tifa when Aerith mentions that Sephiroth has nothing to lose, no one dear to him before they go through the portal, so chronologically, it goes Shinra Tower vision > Cloud realising Sephiroth may have nothing to lose but he himself has someone to protect > Cloud saving Tifa in front of the Whispers even though he was super far away from her. This shows how Sephiroth knows he can use Tifa to distract Cloud - because he did once, and it worked.

So, in some ways, I feel like... Sephiroth will dominate Northern Crater, we'll go lower than what we ever did - it's the Empire Strikes Back - while the Lifestream scene will be expanded upon, but as intimate as ever - and the Jedi will Return :D The Lifestream scene will be given more depth - the OG one is trippy! But it would not fit Remake as is, and it is the most important moment in the game, so the devs will certainly want it to shine in ways it didn't in the OG - many fans do not see this scene as the most important scene of the OG, yet most of the devs did point out that it was the most important to them. This dichotomy certainly will be resolved by the multipart story. Writing this, I feel that more than ever, the Northern Crater and the Lifestream scene do need to happen on the same game, because those parts answer to each other and can act as the backbone of the last part.

Now the question would be... why wouldn't Sephiroth just kill Tifa? And, I don't think he will, even though the fandom has been wondering if that was going to happen, what's with that Sephiroth who clearly doesn't like Tifa, with that vision of him killing her? I would say that Sephiroth would be more keen to get Cloud as a pawn. Last time Cloud thought Tifa was dead, he killed him. So Sephiroth may thread more carefully and instead try to break him totally and use him as a clone for the Reunion. So, what he needs in fact is Tifa failing her task. What I've been pondering is more like, what kind of visions will Cloud get from Sephiroth in the future? Won't that be added heavily in the Northern Crater portion? The Lifestream scene is a mind battle between Cloud and his fake memories. So tthe idea may be to add more fake memories, show him that they're fake, make them outweight his real memories to confuse him and make it impossible for Tifa to save him. This is why I think the promise scene is so important and why its new placement caught my eyes; because this and the chapters 1 and 8 flasbacks are really going to be important for the Lifestream scene and how Cloud regains his memories and his self. Also let's remember, this Sephiroth's plans ADD to the OG Sephiroth's plans. They don't replace them. So I'm very curious to see how Cloud is going to get affected by Jenova and Sephiroth in the next game. Because I think the answer should be "more than in the OG".
 
AKA
a_apple
This reminds regarding Clouds upcoming mental break down in the remake, if you look at Sephiroth's behavior in part one then it might looks like that the story will go in a much different direction, because if you compare RE!Seph to OG Seph you can tell that there is now a fundamental difference in his approach to Cloud.
OG Seph didn't acknowledge Cloud as a person so he could manipulate him into doubting his own existence which leads to Clouds ego getting completely shattered, that's why he acted like he didn't know Cloud when he saw him again or why he acted surprised when Cloud showed emotions after Aerith died.
RE!Seph on the other hand doesn't seem to go for that because if you look at chapter 2, there Sephiroth tells Cloud he killed his mother which means he is confirming to Cloud that yes he is a real boy, which also means it's pretty unlikely that he suddenly will backtrack and try to convince Cloud that everything he suffered 5 years ago because of Sephiroth isn't real anyway even though that memory is something he wants Cloud to remember and hold on to, which conflicts with OG where Sephiroth tells Cloud he was created after the Nibelheim incidence.

Remake Sephiroth seems more focused on making Cloud concentrate on hatred and negative emotions but he also seems to try to guide him to something bigger he has yet to realize, so maybe there is a completely new storyline waiting to happen and the plot from the OG will drastically change?
 
You have to remember that we have 2 Sephiroth: one is doing his OG business as usual from the Northern Crater. The other is a new addition who has his own goals. Also, I think that by making Sephiroth appear more, they de facto changed his role a little bit. Whatever he's doing is for Cloud's demise though.
 
Sorry for the double post. This is a theory post, but since it might be too cloti, I rather post it here.

Since I've been reading this thread in reddit...
Great post, Eerie. But after reading the analysis you have shared and the linked Reddit thread, I have to say that it leads me to a pretty different conclusion than the one you have arrived at. In the past, I have wavered on the idea of whether Tifa is going to be the one to die this time around. However, this clear antipathy from Sephiroth towards Tifa adds fuel to the fire. This evidence combined with my own movement towards the idea that the Remake series is going to deviate a lot from the original game makes the prospect of Tifa dying a lot more possible in my mind, as much as I regret it. For me, the lyrics to Hollow only make sense if they’re about Tifa, and therefore, they suggest to me that Cloud will lose Tifa in at least one of the timelines that Remake will cover.
You have to remember that we have 2 Sephiroth
It slightly depresses me that this is where Remake has brought us to. When we’re playing part 2, will we be second-guessing which Sephiroth we’re seeing every time he pops-up, rather than - you know - actually emotionally engaging with the scenes we’re watching? I don’t want Tifa to die, but the emotional consequences of such an event on both me, the viewer, and our cast, especially Cloud, do interest me. The introduction of multiple timelines and Sephiroths make me fear that the Remake will muddy and complicate stories that were emotionally effective as they were. My suspicion is that the Lifestream scene in the Remake, in whatever form it takes, will concern the reconciliation of Cloud’s memories from multiple conflicting timelines in contrast to how it was presented in the original. All of the complexity that the Remake series is building up will have to resolve emotionally at some point, and as well all fondly remember: the OG’s grand mystery concerning Cloud’s identity was resolved in the Lifestream scene in the original. I just hope our authors don’t lose sight of the fact that the Lifestream scene was pivotal for Tifa’s story too and not just Cloud’s.
 
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In all honestly, I don't think Tifa's going to die because I think Remake starts and will finish at the same starting and end point of the OG. What we have to look at is Tifa's role; if she dies, there is no Lifestream scene. The Lifestream scene is an incredibly intimate scene, and that is because Tifa's role is linked to the intimate part of the plot - aka she's the one who restores Cloud's memories, and she's the only one who's able to do this because she's the only one who has lived not only the Nibelheim incident but also all their childhood memories together. If you make Tifa die, then she cannot achieve what she's been designed for.

I think fans are very concerned about this, and very emotional so they do not think in a rational way about it. But Tifa has been created to be Cloud's love. They share intimate scenes because it's her role. If she dies early, then she's dead and there's nothing she can do to help move the plot anymore - unlike Aerith whose role as a semi-divine being means that she can die and still act. If Tifa dies, then who helps Cloud? The answer is: no one. Cloud dies from mako poisoning in the Lifestream, the end.

Remake may be a very different beast in how it presents events, compared to the OG, however it has already planted all the seeds for both the Northern Crater and the Lifestream events - hell it has even hinted at the night under the Highwind too, for what it's worth. And chapter 18 changes nothing about that. Cloud still has forgotten who he is and tries to impersonate a fake persona which is what he imagines to be a hero. Remake is also laying down all the things that were not really clear in the OG, notably Cloud's feelings for Tifa. But that's mainly because it's trying to correct a misinterpretation about the OG: that Cloud didn't love Tifa anymore, despite the Lifestream scene - which is one of the grandest love declaration in gaming, if you really think about it.

Remake is not aiming at surprising us with Aerith's death, with the fact that Cloud has mental troubles, that Cloud really cares for Tifa in ways he doesn't for any other character in the game. This is also why I keep saying that the devs want all the fans to be aware of the OG and the Compilation, especially CC and ACC. Because they do not intend to use the same tricks to trick the players this time around. So they use a second Sephiroth, some smoke, Aerith with new powers, etc. But that doesn't mean that the basis of the story isn't there anymore. It is. Each character still has their own score to play. Each character got expanded on with the basis of their previous role. This is why Aerith got stronger with new powers. This is why Cloud acts more like himself around Tifa and why they seem to share a looooooooooot of time together, even in combat, even when Barret is with them - somehow they always have time to share together and the camera focuses on them: that's because their stories are intertwined. And the game wants us to note this. So it can use Sephiroth killing Tifa and Barret in a vision in front of Cloud, to make us fear for Tifa.

I think there is something Nojima said about ACC that everyone should remember: "at the end, I knew they would be together." Don't forget that "reunion" is literally the cloti theme written in Tifa's theme, promised under the stars, etc. This is Tifa's arc, and it has to be fulfilled. And it can only be fulfilled when Cloud tells her so, after the Lifestream scene.
 
AKA
a_apple
The Is Tifa gonna die this time question is a tricky one, because there is somewhat merit to it and I'm not talking about that Shinra VR scene. Because if you think about it part one is literally conditioning us into thinking that everytime Tifa is in danger Cloud will swoop in and save her, like there is a big focus of that dynamic in the game, so naturally there has to be a moment where this won't be the case, where Cloud will fail.
BUT killing Tifa just so she can become a reason Cloud can feel super sad :( would be a huge step backwards regarding the treatment of the female characters in ff7, a game that had that huge focus on it's heroines, it's like in the OG Aerith wasn't just killed so the player would miss one of his waifus, her death had a bigger meaning in the plot but also in a meta sense, her death was carefully crafted so was Tifas role. They were treated as integral parts of the game. And that was back in 1997. For the devs to now taking away Tifas own arc and moment of glory just to turn her into nothing more then a object of affection for Cloud to enhance his hatred for his arch nemesis (...because this time it's personal) would be beyond embarrassing
 
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Graymouse

yoroshiku onegaishimasu
I always thought, and I still do even now about that scene in FF7R at the Shinra VR room was more representing that Sephiroth was: pardon my language here but; Fucking with Cloud's head. In the most fucked up way possible. That is how I interpreted that scene. He gave Cloud a, "look Cloud, I can take away the most important thing in your life" look on Sephiroth's face after he "killed" her.

That entire scene, was only to mess with Cloud's head. Remember guys, Sephiroth has to break Clouds mind. (just like he did in the OG) This is just the beginning of the mind games that Sephiroth will continue to play throughout the Series. So, it begins with this and his other interactions with Cloud, that he is assaulting Cloud's mental state. This is part of the process. This is why I know that Tifa will not die, simply because as stated before Tifa and only Tifa can bring him back from his mental breakdown. No one else can do it. So, this is in no way foreshadowing that Tifa will be killed. Besides, the Devs have already told us that they are not going to stray too far away from the OG storyline. A lot of people are taking this scene way to serious and are misinterpreting the scene completely.
 
To me, the VR scene is the reason why Cloud gets so conscious about Tifa's safety in chapter 18 - right before the portal he turns to her several times during Aerith's speech - and him saving her during the fight is the answer to the VR scene. What's amusing to me is that Barret also gets killed during this scene but no one thinks Barret is going to die.
 

a_apple 2.0

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a_apple
I don't think his behavior was much different from what we saw before regarding Tifa tho
Cloud through out the game is very conscious about her safety I would say that's nothing unusual.
Also the Tifa dying scene is just one part of the riddle, it's not the only thing that's very weird about that entire sequence, the clone that suddenly appears has also a special focus on him that seems to foreshadow something. You have to keep in mind that we are pretty much shown the moment when Meteor is about to destroy Midgar just before Holy intervenes. It's practically the same scene, so we are getting a glimpse of the future here
 
It's a future manipulated by Sephiroth though. We mustn't forget that Sephiroth is playing with Cloud and playing mind games, because he wants to break him. He wants to show him that he can't do anything to save neither the Planet, neither Tifa, neither Barret. But we know it's not true. This scene is there for Sephiroth's own interests but it's something fans often forget. After all, Cloud's arc includes being Tifa's hero and being able to save her no matter what. While it's true he was late in the OG, we've seen that clearly being expanded on, and this being a main theme for Cloud, we're bound to see it in grander ways even.
 
It's a future manipulated by Sephiroth though. We mustn't forget that Sephiroth is playing with Cloud and playing mind games, because he wants to break him. He wants to show him that he can't do anything to save neither the Planet, neither Tifa, neither Barret. But we know it's not true. This scene is there for Sephiroth's own interests but it's something fans often forget. After all, Cloud's arc includes being Tifa's hero and being able to save her no matter what. While it's true he was late in the OG, we've seen that clearly being expanded on, and this being a main theme for Cloud, we're bound to see it in grander ways even.
I’ll try my best to respond to many of the points you’ve made since my last post here, Eerie. Forgive me if I miss some of them. In many regards we agree on much Eerie. We’re just operating on different assumptions. You believe that since much of the Final Fantasy VII story and our characters have been set up as they have in the original game that the stories will unfold in mostly the same manner. And half of me is inclined to agree with that. But the other half of me pulls my arm in another direction and asks: “But surely chapter 18 was a loud and unsubtle statement of intent?”

While our characters have been set up in the same way, new factors and variables have been introduced that could take their journeys in wildly different directions. There is an additional Sephiroth with an agenda that is different to that of the Sephiroth from the original game. Aerith has knowledge of the future. And Zack is alive in what appears to be another timeline. These changes must be there for a reason and they are going to impact the trajectory of Remake’s story, otherwise the story will not resolve in a satisfying way. The game ends with the quote: “The unknown journey will continue.”

Half of me has to take chapter 18 at face value and admit that they might do some different things with the story from here-on. I can point to the Evangelion Rebuild series (of which I have only seen the first 2 films) as an example of a similar effort to remake a popular modern story which then takes the original story in a very different direction with each subsequent instalment. I think there was a bit of Evangelion in the original Final Fantasy VII so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rebuild series was serving as a reference point for the Remake series as well. I think our creative leads on the Remake want to do right by their audience, but they also want to break new ground, satisfy their creative urges, interrogate what it means to re-tell the same story they’ve told once before, and ultimately do some things with Final Fantasy 7 that they always wanted to do, but never got the chance to.

But you also make many reasonable points, Eerie, and so do a_apple and Graymouse. If Tifa dies, not only will that ruin her character and her story, but it will ruin Cloud’s too. And I don’t have a counter argument for this point. Like many of us here, I’m writing this post right now because I have a lot of love for the original game. I loved Cloud and Tifa’s stories and I will always value how much the Lifestream scene affected me as a young teen. Like many, I would appreciate a straight-forward remake of VII with a bigger budget and some modern game design. I’m not asking for anything to be changed and I am truly worried that certain changes to the story could lessen it.

I had a great time with the Remake and it did a lot right for me, but it wasn’t perfect, and we can point to the plate-fall sequence in Chapter 12 as a clear example of something that worked better in the original. While Bigg’s death was surprisingly effective, Jessie’s death completely missed the mark. The whole thing was drawn out (as the whole game was) and when it came to the moment the plate dropped, the big money-shot, the music didn’t fit and a cartoon cat dropped by to slam his fist into the ground. Instead of grief, I felt cold and confused in those moments. The silence and screams that accompanied the FMV in the original were much better creative choices than those made in the Remake. And if the creative team behind the Remake can screw up a moment like that, something they had previously done well with minimal resources, what else can they screw-up going forwards?

So there’s a few points I’m trying to make: First, I am not an advocate for change in the Remake going forwards, and like many, I would prefer a mostly-faithful retelling with some embellishments here and there. Second, is that our creatives are not perfect and that they are not going to make the right storytelling choices even about things that they have previously gotten right - we can’t just assume that they aren’t going to make choices that make the most narrative sense because they certainly made mistakes in the Remake. And finally, the point that motivates what I am posting in this thread: there is evidence for ‘things’ that can’t be ignored.

Setting chapter 18 and the “unknown journey” aside for now, as a_apple has also identified, there is evidence and intent going on in Remake that is setting up... something. As you say, seeds are being down for future pay-off. But additions have also been made to the story and one has to wonder if they’re tracking towards the same conclusion as the original or if they’re tracking towards something else. Tifa’s death in the VR hallucination was put there for a reason. Cloud’s complex about protecting Tifa is there for a reason. Tifa’s Theme being used as a repeated leitmotif in the Remake is there for a reason. The repeated image of Cloud and Tifa’s hands reaching/clasping each other is there for a reason. Hollow’s lyrics were written for a reason. It could very well be that I’m joining the dots up in the wrong way and I’m coming to the wrong conclusion. But I also don’t think hand-waving the details in the VR sequence as Sephiroth taunting Cloud is a good enough answer. Why spend months planning the VR sequence with the Visual Works team at Square Enix if those details don’t matter? They foreshadowed Cait Sith in the Plate-fall FMV sequence and they foreshadowed the connection between Aerith and Zack in the ending FMV scene.

However, there are other seeds being down that run counter to any evidence that Tifa might die. The moments of sexual attraction and flirtation between Cloud and Tifa are surely building up to something: perhaps the Highwind scene. One would hope, at least! Like I said previously, I am not certain on what I think is going to happen and I do waver on this point about Tifa dying. If there are indeed multiple timelines in this new story, this could empower the creative team to have their cake and eat it. They can do some truly shocking things in one timeline, while playing things safe in another. But whether or not such choices would make for a good and satisfying story is matter for another discussion.
 
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