Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Graymouse

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
I just came across a question that I thought could make an interesting discussion. I found this searching the internet. This question was asked back in June 2019 and thought that we can give a more updated view point since the release of the Remake.

Why is Tifa Lockhart so popular?

Rafa Alves, B.A. Internet Systems, Faculdade Meta (2017)
  1. For being one of the main characters on the most successful entry in the franchise, thus making her much more well-known than Lenna (FF5), for example. If more people know the game she was in, there's more chance of her becoming popular.
  2. Because the game she was in was 3d. Generally but not always, characters from FF7 onwards are most well-known than the ones from FF1-6 (the same rule from the previous topic applies here). In the Kingdom Hearts franchise, I think the only character from that the 2d era of FF to ever make a cameo was Setzer(FF6), on KH2. I didn't played KH3, so I don't know if that changed.
  3. Her design is very attractive to male audiences. That also adds to popularity.
  4. Unlike Aerith, who kinda sticks to the “damsel in distress” trope, Tifa is a strong and independent woman who can take of herself. If you think on characters like Rinoa or Garnet, neither of them can completely escape from that trope, which makes Tifa even more unique in the franchise. Her personality and attitude resonates with the female audience, as this kind of character was uncommon in jrpgs and games in general back when FF7 came out.
  5. She may invoke nostalgia to some people as FF7 was launched a long time ago.
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Tinatin Armainteresebs

It would be hard for her not to be so popular, when she:

  1. has beautiful, simple and iconic design that stands out;
  2. is a monk class fighter among the party of supernatural beings and armed comrades, which makes her incredibly badass;
  3. has a nice, kind and sweet personality which makes her very likable;
  4. the contrast between her outgoing and sexy looks and personality is amazing;
  5. is very caring towards protagonist aka player’s character;
  6. is a refreshing love interest who saves the hero;
  7. has a good story and arc;
  8. has believable flaws which stop her from being a mary sue and make her the most relatable and human member of the cast;
  9. is part of one of the most popular video games of all time which gives her the bigger audience and reach.
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I think most of these are believable and still hold true, is there anything else that can be added or taken out? What do you guys think?
 
Purple

Purple

Charmed
Master Bates said:
Really takes me back. Back when the OG was still fresh, I remember Cloti to be the less popular ship, totally outnumbered by Clerith. But post-OG and the presence of Compilation had slowly but surely managed to change the tide. This ship has really come a long way.
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I remember those days. I think that’s the reason the LTD exploded during AC. Some people were shookt when Cloud and Tifa were living together raising children. Those were then days. Lol. Then again I wasn’t surprised the compilation became what it is. Aerith has always been a red herring to me.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I don’t believe that she was envious in that scene, she was really scared lol.

@Purple I remember I think I discovered TLS around then haha took me some time to register- or maybe I did and then forgot my account, it’s very possible. Back then I was surprised because I thought SE would be coy forever with the LTD ?
 
Master Bates

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Purple said:
I remember those days. I think that’s the reason the LTD exploded during AC. Some people were shookt when Cloud and Tifa were living together raising children. Those were then days. Lol. Then again I wasn’t surprised the compilation became what it is. Aerith has always been a red herring to me.
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The LTD was still raging before AC because Square had been throwing bones to shippers thru other game cameos. During the TNC days, Clerith cameo in FFTactics (my fave FF game, btw) and of course, the famous Kingdom Hearts cameo were always thrown around. But Cloti also had their cameos. It was about then that the LTD contention was starting to morph into "what was the intended pairing" if I'm remembering things correctly, and Clerith was the 'dominant' ship.

But you're right. It was the release of AC that reignited the LTD machinery and when Cloti truly started gaining leg. And with the release of subsequent materials (novellas, ultimanias, cameos in modern games, and outside meta-texts), the popularity of Cloti also grew. EDIT: See, this is why I'm optimistic the Remake will end the LTD. SE has been leaning Cloti since.

Edley said:
View attachment 6125
These kids ain't subtle.
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"She told them where to stick 'em."

LMAO HELP! PULL MY MIND OUT OF THE GUTTER!
 
Purple

Purple

Charmed
Master Bates said:
EDIT: See, this is why I'm optimistic the Remake will end the LTD. SE has been leaning Cloti since.
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Part of me feels they might finally end it and seal it with a kiss or you know make it blatantly obvious that they’re the OTP. However, I do have a nagging feeling SE might go the vague route again but at the same time the perceived vagueness of the OG is in part due to technological constraints at the time, something that wouldn’t really be a problem for next gen graphics. We’ll just have to wait and see but I’m looking forward to all the discussion once the final installment comes out, lol.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I know that in the OG if you have Tifa in your party, you will see her and Cloud sitting close together after the fight against Sephiroth. Since they seem to include everyone this time around in cutscenes, here's to hope that it'll be done too with Cloud putting a hand on her shoulders/waist, IDK.
 
Yumelinh

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Purple said:
I remember those days. I think that’s the reason the LTD exploded during AC. Some people were shookt when Cloud and Tifa were living together raising children. Those were then days. Lol. Then again I wasn’t surprised the compilation became what it is. Aerith has always been a red herring to me.
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This has always been my impression, too! When we're aware of FFVII as a whole and that one of its most important themes was "subverting expectations" It just makes a lot of sense as to why they pushed CxA so much in the beginning only to, later on, reveal that Cloud was in love with Tifa all along. To things to work as they did you were supposed to believe Aerith was the main love interest as much as you were supposed to believe Cloud was an ex-Soldier. But I don't think it disqualified Cloud's feelings for Aerith tho, he was definitely attracted to her in the time they spent together.


But this is also why I think things are coming easier for CT this time around. Remake doesn't need to push ship A that hard to have the same results because people are already attached for Aerith. The same thing with them showing Sephiroth from the beginning, already revealing Cloud wasn't a soldier and so on.
 
M

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
I posted the below in the LTD thread but it kinda got lost in the fray, but I think it's relevant to the red herring discussion going on here:

minami758 said:
This is just to the general discussion about Aerith's "imagination" line.

For the record, I’ve always been in the camp that Cloud’s attraction to Aerith was deliberately intended to be fleeting and transient (it’s very mono no aware). Aerith very much played into Cloud’s idea of what a hero should be and she always enjoyed stroking his ego, which is why he took a liking to her in the first place. She was part of a fantasy he built up around himself — that he was a strong SOLDIER, a knight in shining armor — and when she dies that fantasy does too. Cloud says as much himself in the game after he regains his identity: “I can’t remain trapped in an illusion anymore. I’m going to live my life without pretending.”

It doesn’t make Cloud and Aerith’s bond that they develop any less real, but the romantic aspect of it was always tinged with a semblance of Hollywood-esque imagination (as well as Zack's shadow, to a certain point), which is, in my opinion, what Aerith’s line (“it’s your imagination/it’s not real”) is referencing.

(And the real tragedy is that Cloud created this fantasy in the first place for the sake of Tifa.)

I could write an essay on how both Aerith and Zack represent a perfect ideal in an imperfect world, and that’s why they both must die, but that’s not really LTD related and I don't have time, so I won’t.:awesome:
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Yumelinh

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
minami758 said:
I could write an essay on how both Aerith and Zack represent a perfect ideal in an imperfect world, and that’s why they both must die, but that’s not really LTD related and I don't have time, so I won’t.:awesome:
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Pls do?? I would love to read that!! :lol:
 
M

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Yumelinh said:
Pls do?? I would love to read that!!
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Haha I guess the long and short of it is basically that Zack and Aerith are the quintessential hero and heroine — they fit the archetypal ideals of what a classic hero and heroine should be. If we take Zack to be somewhat of a parallel to Odysseus (trying to get back to Penelope/Aerith), then he is a hero that goes through a transformative journey and subsequent loss of innocence. Crisis Core is all about Zack starting as a naive teenager and learning about the hypocrisies and inner workings of Shinra, ultimately rebelling against that which made him strong. Aerith is a heroine who loses her beloved, then her innocence, and ultimately accepts the burden she must bear in order to save the world. Her arc in FF7 is very much that of a "chosen one."

However, their lives both end in tragedy because FF7 is not a world where quintessential heroes and heroines can exist. The OG is entirely about subverting expectations (in a good way, I hate how this term has been misappropriated) and taking traditional tropes and flipping them on their head. Everything is not as it seems, and real life is difficult, complex, and not fantastical at all.

Zack and Aerith are symbolic of the classic ideal, and they must die because they don't belong in a world where imperfection is the entire theme. Their deaths also give way to lessons on grief and loss. It's quite sad, but also very poignant and fitting if you think about it.

Graymouse said:
Honestly, I was really glad that in the Remake Tifa finally got her theme orchestrated. It took them way too long for it to happen. You almost never hear her theme being played.
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On a different, more Cloud/Tifa-related note, I learned today that Tifa's Theme is actually a male/female duet! I know nothing about music theory, but I saw this post on Reddit. A musician friend of mine said that the Remake's theme actually makes it more obvious, with Tifa's part being played by a flute and Cloud's being played by an oboe. Great details!
 
Graymouse

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
minami758 said:
Haha I guess the long and short of it is basically that Zack and Aerith are the quintessential hero and heroine — they fit the archetypal ideals of what a classic hero and heroine should be. If we take Zack to be somewhat of a parallel to Odysseus (trying to get back to Penelope/Aerith), then he is a hero that goes through a transformative journey and subsequent loss of innocence. Crisis Core is all about Zack starting as a naive teenager and learning about the hypocrisies and inner workings of Shinra, ultimately rebelling against that which made him strong. Aerith is a heroine who loses her beloved, then her innocence, and ultimately accepts the burden she must bear in order to save the world. Her arc in FF7 is very much that of a "chosen one."

However, their lives both end in tragedy because FF7 is not a world where quintessential heroes and heroines can exist. The OG is entirely about subverting expectations (in a good way, I hate how this term has been misappropriated) and taking traditional tropes and flipping them on their head. Everything is not as it seems, and real life is difficult, complex, and not fantastical at all.

Zack and Aerith are symbolic of the classic ideal, and they must die because they don't belong in a world where imperfection is the entire theme. Their deaths also give way to lessons on grief and loss. It's quite sad, but also very poignant and fitting if you think about it.



On a different, more Cloud/Tifa-related note, I learned today that Tifa's Theme is actually a male/female duet! I know nothing about music theory, but I saw this post on Reddit. A musician friend of mine said that the Remake's theme actually makes it more obvious, with Tifa's part being played by a flute and Cloud's being played by an oboe. Great details!
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Wow! Thanks for sharing! I would have never known otherwise.
 
Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
Graymouse said:
I think most of these are believable and still hold true, is there anything else that can be added or taken out? What do you guys think?
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I'd add a couple of things:
Her backstory:
I always liked how fleshed out her backstory was: her childhood, the loss of her mother at a very young age and how it impacted her, how she has an interest in Planetology and reads a lot about different topics, how she had to act tough when she was by herself in Midgar. Sephiroth killing his father and neighbours and burning down her village is a great origin story and her biggest motivator to do what he does and to become who she is. Tifa's origin story is better than Batman's, or any superhero for that matter.

Her flaws:
Her inner conflict between her caring nature and her quest for retribution, her doubts and hesitation about her own feelings. Her recklessness, attacking Sephiroth with his own sword (and how she almost died as result). And that she played the piano and stopped because she got frustrated with a song lol (I feel you Tifa!).

For me, these things make her one of the most fleshed out characters ever, and how things happen and affect her in a believable way makes her a very round character.
 
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Graymouse

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Cat on Mars said:
I'd add a couple of things:
Her backstory:
I always liked how fleshed out her backstory was: her childhood, the loss of her mother at a very young age and how it impacted her, how she has an interest in Planetology and reads a lot about different topics, how she had to act tough when she was by herself in Midgar. Sephiroth killing his father and neighbours and burning down her village is a great origin story and her biggest motivator to do what he does and to become who she is Tifa's origin story is better than Batman's, or any superhero or that matter.

Her flaws:
Her inner conflict between her caring nature and her quest for retribution, her doubts and hesitation about her own feelings. Her recklessness, attacking Sephiroth with his own sword (and how she almost died as result). And that she played the piano and stopped because she got frustrated with a song lol (I feel you Tifa!).

For me, these things make her one of the most fleshed out characters ever, and how things happen and affect her in a believable way makes her a very round character.
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You articulated almost exactly what I saw in her character from the beginning. The very fact that she is a flawed character is what makes her so great. More relatable in my opinion. She isn't a magical being, or someone who needs rescuing. She is a strong and very independent women that on occasion lets her guard down, especially when a certain someone is around. At least in the Remake. I am just glad that her popularity is growing and she is getting some of the lime light after so many years being in the shadows.
 
Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
Yes! She is relatable, which is a very uncommon charater trait for badass fighter ladies because they tend to be written as distant and cold. And she isn't a "strong woman needs no man" character because she still needs someone to lean on when she's weary and hurt. Her vulnerability is touching, I love how she looks all cool and tough but she's very wounded deep down and it shows sometimes.
I like that she isn't a magical artifact or has one, she isn't "special" by birth, or "chosen" by fate. Her own actions place her when she needs to be. She sometimes fails and gets discouraged, and yet she still tries her best, even if she feels it's hopeless.
And I really like all these small things I mentioned earlier. She gets frustrated sometimes (when I played the OG, I had stopped playing the piano out of sheer frustration so I liked her even more after learning that) but she's passionate about stuff, and I dig that.

I dunno, she's awesome and flawed. She's perfectly imperfect. I've looked upon her as a good role model, even if she's not intented to be, just because she is proof that you can be flawed, be scared, and yet you can try and do better.
 
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Shadowfox

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
Cat on Mars said:
I'd add a couple of things:
Her backstory:
I always liked how fleshed out her backstory was: her childhood, the loss of her mother at a very young age and how it impacted her, how she has an interest in Planetology and reads a lot about different topics, how she had to act tough when she was by herself in Midgar. Sephiroth killing his father and neighbours and burning down her village is a great origin story and her biggest motivator to do what he does and to become who she is. Tifa's origin story is better than Batman's, or any superhero for that matter.
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This is something I've been considering about Tifa too. How closely linked the loss of her loved ones is to traumatic physical injury for her.

- Her mom dies when she's young; she has the accident at the bridge which results in serious injury and a coma. (Possibly memory loss too? Years ago, I read somewhere that there's a Tifa's Diary entry in the Dismantled book which mentioned she had gaps in her memory for that year. She never knew why and no one in the village would tell her. Dunno if that's actually in the book and/or if it's even canon, and I can't for the life of me find the site where I first saw that.)

- Her dad is murdered & her entire hometown is destroyed by Sepiroth; she is struck by Sephiroth and hovers near the edge of death for however long it takes for Zangan to get her to Midgar. When she finally recovers, she's in a completely new place, on a different continent, with little to nothing left of her childhood.

Looking at it, it's no wonder she worries that Cloud might leave in the Midgar chapters. Even if we take out the fact that she's liked him for years, the thought of losing her only remaining link to Nibelheim must have hurt a lot.

When Sector 7, her home & the community she's been a part of for half a decade, is destroyed by Shinra, it's yet another immense loss that would have hit her on every level in both emotional and physical ways. We see her anxiety in the whole chapter where they are trying to get back to Sector 7 to stop Shinra from dropping the pillar, and her distraught and devastated state when they fail.

I've seen some people dismiss her as weak or pathetic for expressing her despair but they ignore that she gets back up again. Tifa really has pulled herself up over and over again despite the setbacks, the deaths, and the hurt, to keep on facing life, one step at a time. All while also showing deep empathy and compassion for others.

It's just... really heartbreaking to think of the amount of pain she's gone through in her life, and the future pain she'll have to face.

(Her and everyone in the party, of course. I'm not ignoring the rest. They're all walking meatbags of pain and trauma. Silver lining is that they will, without exception, rally close for one another and walk through hell for every one in their found family.)
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I remember when I played the OG, Tifa struck me out as a great character; she was a strong fighter, a bit shy, but independant and kind and caring. I thought immediately that she was a great character model, and I thought that was the kind of female characters I'd like my own young daughter to look up to (well as soon as the PS5 is out, she'll play Remake, so that's gonna be great lol - she knows next to nothing about the story, except what the characters look like, and that Aerith dies lol).

Back then, I didn't t hink much of the trauma both Cloud and Tifa went through, because I was still young and didn't had any experience with mental problems (I still don't - touching wood - but lots of my friends have, so it made me more aware of this), but looking back at this g ame, it's a prime example of people suffering that make it through somehow. It's not easy and all sunshine, but it does work, and there is love. I'm just ahhhhh <3 It also makes the fact that Tifa is literally Cloud's pillar because she is the proof that he exists such a strong CloTi foundations.

On the other side, why did I chose to read the comments under the last fanart? That one who says they're like siblings while the game pushes Aerith because she's always flirting with Cloud, and I'm like, how can you misconstruct the game like that? :rage:
 
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