Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Honestly, I don't care how much clotiness is in AC/OTWTAS, I still cringe when I watch it. I find it a terrible sequel and I don't mean to offend anyone who likes it. I just can't stand it! :) Yes, Cloud is mopey. But what about Tifa's character development in CoT/AC? It was non existent and relegated her to a professional worrier (as opposed to warrior!). She worries about Cloud, worries about Denzel, is heartbroken over Aerith's death and the destruction of Midgar and never really does anything of substance. The whole bit about Cloud being scared to tell her he went to visit the church is just petty. I know the creators wanted to portray her insecurities, but at the same time could they have given her character growth by getting over it and being more assertive? Instead of asking "do you love me?", have her tell Cloud that she loves him and trusts him to come talk to her when he's ready. Oh and don't get me started about her telling everyone NOT to help Cloud fight Sephiroth. Seriously?! It's because of AC that I still harbour some doubts about the remake being any good when it is finally completed!

I'm new here, and hello btw! So glad to see old-timers pop back up. I don't know, it feels kinda nice?

On the Way to a Smile was recommended to me by another user here. Honestly, it reads more like character vignettes, so in her character's defense, that's not enough room to portray character growth. But I agree with you that I wanted her to just come out and say her feelings for him instead. But I also wanted Cloud to do the same. And then on the other hand, their characters are flawed, and I love that about them.

About her insecurities, the 10th Anniversary Ultimania I'm reading does make it a point to note that AC Tifa has insecurities about Cloud's shared connection with Aerith, because she's not part of the equation there. I just wish she realized that what Cloud shares with her is also something special and different, and it's something Aerith isn't a part of either. The insecure trait is talked about a couple of times on her character profile pages. But at the very end, there's a photo of her looking up as she remembers Aerith, making a note to say that her feelings for Aerith are genuine. They were friends, and she loved her. Those feelings were real. Her complicated feelings, her insecurites, never got in the way of her friendship with Aerith.

I don't think the Remake is failing in this respect. I think they're expanding on it, and giving us the fuller picture.

If Tifa dies, who saves Cloud?

You know, the weirdest thing I heard from shippers in the other fandom is how they think Aerith can do the saving because she has Cetra powers that she can use. If this Aerith has knowledge of the OG, then their argument is, wouldn't she be able to do it? But that leaves me wondering. Even if she can, his head is full of Tifa. This is something he never wanted to share with anyone, it's intimate, and it's supposed to be be kept hidden. Aerith wasn't able to do this in the OG because (and this is just my headcanon) the only person who Cloud eventually allows to access his mind is Tifa because hello? She's the only one on his mind, and the reason he joined Soldier. The "wanting to be like Sephiroth" was motivated by his crush on Tifa. It just wouldn't make sense, and the whole "reunion motif" that you mentioned, what would happen to that? Cloud and Tifa need to have their "true reunion" for their story to come full fircle. We already got a hint of that when he gives her the reunion flower, says it's been five years, and she's like, Huh? Nah, Tifa. It's only Tifa.
 
Last edited:

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Am I misremembering, or doesn't he call Tifa's name when they're in the Lifestream? IIRC she says that she heard Cloud calling her? So I don't think he'd let anyone but her reach him. Even if Aerith knows the full picture (which, she doesn't), she cannot confirm to him that those memories are the true!Cloud's ones, because she never was there and it's easy to lie for a friend/boyfriend. Only Tifa can say "yes, I have lived those events, they are real, but how did you get to live them too, since I didn't see you?" to have him accept his true self. At that point, he already said that only Tifa's words were important to him and allowed him to believe in his own story, that he was himself (when he was breaking down).

Also, narratively, you cannot take what you have given to one of your heroine and give it to the other who already has another role. Tifa and Aerith balance each other because they are opposite and complementary, one is tied to the overarching story, the other to Cloud's story. One has a grand moment, the other an intimate moment. If you give one heroine both moments, then what's left to the other? That'd be bad storytelling, because the other has been crafted with this in mind.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
On Cloud's Highwind speech, there's another difference I noticed reading the JP script for the original game.

The same lines in the JP script:
「みんなで行こう」
「エアリスの想い……」
「星にとどいたはずなのに 邪魔されて身動きできないでいる……」
「エアリスの想い、解き放つんだ!」

The word that was translated as "memories" in the English game was originally 想い, which I usually read as "thoughts, feelings, wish". In this case, I tend to tie 想い closer to Aerith's wish for Holy to protect the planet. So this speech was Cloud saying that Aerith's wish should have reached the planet but it's been blocked by Sephiroth and cannot move, and he was calling on the group to go together to free her wish and thus activate Holy.

Interestingly, 想い was also the same word Tifa used for "feelings" in her "Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel" line in the HA Highwind scene.

It can mean any of those things in English, depending on context, but it's a good thing to remember that built into the kanji 想 in 想い, the radical 心 exists and is a part of this word. That 心 is the "heart", so you're right that it can also be translated as "wish" or hope, and it comes from the condition of the heart.

(sorry for the double post! omg)
 
Last edited:

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Also, narratively, you cannot take what you have given to one of your heroine and give it to the other who already has another role. Tifa and Aerith balance each other because they are opposite and complementary, one is tied to the overarching story, the other to Cloud's story. One has a grand moment, the other an intimate moment. If you give one heroine both moments, then what's left to the other? That'd be bad storytelling, because the other has been crafted with this in mind.

Exactly. That's the whole reason why I don't get when other shippers try to claim this moment because this is not just a "ship" moment, but a "Tifa" moment as well.

This is her finally putting her and Cloud's past in place. This is also where the feelings of these two characters come to light. To have another person going into Cloud's mind, they would have to completely remake this scene and erase all Tifa's connections to it and I don't see the Devs doing this ( Part 1 seems to be following the same flow as OG when it comes to this).

Furthermore, I find it so strange that it comes from the same people who try to refute the romantic connotations of this scene, but at the same time, try to claim it for their side.




Thanks for your inputs @odekopeko! :) Sometimes I feel like asking your opinion about the whole Koi_bito mess, but is it really worth reliving this topic? lol :sigh:
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Thanks for your inputs @odekopeko! :) Sometimes I feel like asking your opinion about the whole Koi_bito mess, but is it really worth reliving this topic? lol :sigh:

If I have to be honest, not koi_bito but koi[no space]bito is something that recently came up as more Japanese fans are picking up On the Way to a Smile. People were just as puzzled by the use of the word there, and I've been discussing with my friends.

I've heard the term "mutually exclusive" thrown around with this word amongst English speaking fans on both sides of the ship, but I don't think I have a really good grasp of what that means to even debate on it. If you guys can explain this concept to me in layman's terms, I'd appreciate it. I need the dummy version!

Anyway, whatever the case, I've mentioned this to someone else that calling someone your "koibito" doesn't automatically make them..well, your "koibito." A girl who stalks a guy can say, "Well, he's my boyfriend," but that doesn't necessarily make them lovers if the other party isn't even aware of them being in a relationship. I admit, I took issue with Nojima writing that into the story because even if their feelings are mutual, those feelings were never communicated. We know this is true because it's backed up by official statements that he only communicated these feelings to one woman, and that's Tifa.

That was before. But now I realize that, in the novel, Aerith, at first, called Cloud her "friend". If they were already in a relationship before her death (arguable), why does she at first speak of him as her friend? She then acknowledged that, no, she didn't think of him as a friend. She loved him. As a woman loves a man. As a "koibito."

I do believe that he loved both women, so I'm not saying Cloud doesn't love her. But to be lovers, you need to be in some sort of relationship. They weren't. I still feel Aerith was speaking of what Cloud is symbolic of to her, what he means to her, and how she views him, but in no way is that proof that they were lovers, or that he ever knew she loved him in this way.

With Tifa, that isn't the case. The difference is, Tifa wasn't the one talking to herself about her unfulfilled desires and feelings for Cloud. It was the actual director talking about who she is.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I think so too, @Eerie and that is how I would translate it. The official English translation is pretty accurate. In line with everything she said, she was saying she loved him, and she saw him as a man in that sense, and not as a friend. Not that they were "lovers."
 
Last edited:

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
I'm curious to hear what you guys think of this scene. It really bothered me when I first saw this scene and was really worried that it might be a sign that they were gonna change the story and kill Tifa instead. But the more discussions and commentary I read seem to suggest that it's nothing but a red herring and Kitase himself said that they were gonna stick to the same story beats. You can't have a lot of the 2nd half the same with Tifa gone.

After giving more thought, the only reasons I could think of why SE would include such a scene are:

  1. It is what it is, just a vision. Sephiroth playing tricks on Cloud and Tifa's death was just a representation of Sephiroth taking away all that Cloud holds dear.
  2. It's a red herring to keep fans talking and guessing.
  3. God forbid, it is a sign of what is to come.
  4. To make Cloud realize how much Tifa means to him and to show us how important she is to him. This was to amplify his desire to protect her at all cost and makes his promise to save her so much more important.
Wearing my shipping goggles, I'd really like to think it's the 4th but I don't think it's that far fetched either, logically speaking. FF7 Remake has been amplifying almost everything from the OG. The relationships are a lot more well established, the stakes seem higher and even Cloud and Tifa's relationship has been established and amplified way sooner compared to the OG. It's like they are taking the best parts of the OG and making it even bigger and better.

Here's hoping that my faith in SE will pay off.

I'm sure someone will be able to poke holes in this theory, but I took the vision in Shinra tower as a possible future. Sephiroth is trying to change the timeline, but the EoC scene tells us he wants Cloud's help for some reason. EoC scene also says "7 seconds to the end [of the world]".

So with that in mind I figured that Sephiroth is showing Cloud what will happen if he doesn't join him. The people dear to Cloud will die, and Midgar (and presumably humanity) will be wiped out. Basically Sephiroth is messing with Cloud by presenting a possible future (persumably the one Sephiroth is trying to have happen).

I could see Tifa dying, but not staying dead. By that I mean I don't think she will actually die, but they could kill her off but later we have to fix the timeline to one where she is alive, since she alone can heal Cloud's mind (which is ultimately important in his ability to fight off Sephiroth's control of him). They did a lot in part 1 to set up the eventual reveals of the lifestream, so I doubt they are changing that part of the story.

I'm not big on timeline stuff, so I kind of hope they don't pull a "Tifa dies in this timeline but then we change it" plot but I can imagine that happening. If she does die she won't stay dead.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
There are some real intense convesations here.

Killing Tifa at the end of Part 2 as the cliff hanger ending indstead of say, Aerith?

I wonder if SE would take that risk. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Would people still buy Part 3?
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Thanks, @odekopeko! I appreciate your input over this subject :)

I don't usually bring this into any discussion if I can avoid it cause I don't speak Japanese myself, but it's such an unavoidable subject when it comes to discussions with other shippers. I read everything about this subject and most everyone comes to this same conclusion that, in that context, Aerith simply stating that she loved him and not that they were "lovers".

About this, I see it being thrown around all the time at twitter lol "Nojima said Cloud is Aerith's Koibito. They're lovers!" But anyway, it's one of the interpretations from this word, right? so there's no way to run away from it lol



leach ended I sold everything I had the next day and washed my hands off that shit. Which would tell you about how I would feel and react to such an ending. ?

Let's not talking about Bleach! I loved it so much :sob:

But I must admit If there is one thing that ending has shown me, it's that there are worse things that can happen to a story you love than your ship just not being canon lol ;-;
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
There are some real intense convesations here.

Killing Tifa at the end of Part 2 as the cliff hanger ending indstead of say, Aerith?

I wonder if SE would take that risk. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Would people still buy Part 3?

I don't think they would, it would feel extremely cheap I think, like something done just to shock people. But unlike Aeriths death, this would feel like it's just done to mess with people.

And while they are doing some things differently, I think they do still see the remake as at least partially a "remake" and not a "sequel", they're changing some stuff up yeah, but while doing so I think they're still trying to keep it a remake as well. And killing Tifa would so fundamentally change the game, so much depends on it, that by doing so you really wouldn't be able to say it's a remake anymore.

Also, I think it would make A LOT of people angry, and judging from all the people who are suddenly alive, and their insistence on giving Aerith and Tifa equal time and attention, and their stated goal to try and please both old fans and new, I don't think pissing off everyone by killing off Tifa is high on their to do list.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
I don't think they would, it would feel extremely cheap I think, like something done just to shock people. But unlike Aeriths death, this would feel like it's just done to mess with people.

And while they are doing some things differently, I think they do still see the remake as at least partially a "remake" and not a "sequel", they're changing some stuff up yeah, but while doing so I think they're still trying to keep it a remake as well. And killing Tifa would so fundamentally change the game, so much depends on it, that by doing so you really wouldn't be able to say it's a remake anymore.

I agree! Aerith's death never felt like it was there just for shocking value. Her death served a purpose and, because of her Cetra heritage, she was able to still help save the world and her friends even from the lifestream.

Killing Tifa would add absolutely nothing to the story. She can serve any purpose while dead. Killing Tifa would be tantamount to sacrificing her character for shocking value or LTD purposes and I can't see SE doing such a thing to her. I hope they don't.


( I see you're new around here?! Welcome!! :) )
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I agree! Aerith's death never felt like it was there just for shocking value. Her death served a purpose and, because of her Cetra heritage, she was able to still help save the world and her friends even from the lifestream.

Killing Tifa would add absolutely nothing to the story. She can serve any purpose while dead. Killing Tifa would be tantamount to sacrificing her character for shocking value or LTD purposes and I can't see SE doing such a thing to her. I hope they don't.


( I see you're new around here?! Welcome!! :) )

Thank you so much, I've just gotten through watching a third lets play of the remake and decided I needed to find a different way to get my fix :P

And yeah, Aeriths death is shocking when it happens, but in retrospect, it makes perfect sense within the story being told, like it always had to happen. Specifically because her Cetra heritage gives her power in death, there is a reason it's the Cetra who talk about "the promised land" and "returning to the planet".
When Aerith died, that gave Tifas character a purpose, if Tifa were to die...it would just remove her characters purpose, leaving Aerith to be the be all, end all heroine of the game.
I really can't imagine they'd do that, it would be such a slap in the face, and well, bad writing.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
I think in english it should be “beloved”, it translates well. S/he is her/his beloved. Cloud is Aerith’s beloved.
I think so too, @Eerie and that is how I would translate it. The official English translation is pretty accurate. In line with everything she said, she was saying she loved him, and she saw him as a man in that sense, and not as a friend. Not that they were "lovers."
Thanks, @odekopeko! I appreciate your input over this subject :)

I don't usually bring this into any discussion if I can avoid it cause I don't speak Japanese myself, but it's such an unavoidable subject when it comes to discussions with other shippers. I read everything about this subject and most everyone comes to this same conclusion that, in that context, Aerith simply stating that she loved him and not that they were "lovers".

About this, I see it being thrown around all the time at twitter lol "Nojima said Cloud is Aerith's Koibito. They're lovers!" But anyway, it's one of the interpretations from this word, right? so there's no way to run away from it lol

But even that doesn't make sense, because it was written like a teenage crush. Nojima outright retconned Aerith and Cloud's relationship in On the Way to a Smile. They never had this deep connection, and Aerith didn't have a profound effect on Cloud UNTIL she died.

The "koibito" line would make more sense if it was meant to show how delusional Aerith was about someone she only went on one or two dates with. What's even more incredible is that it was an outright slap in the face to Clerith-shippers in terms of the "show, don't tell" principle, but they use it as evidence.
 
Last edited:

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
There are some real intense convesations here.

Killing Tifa at the end of Part 2 as the cliff hanger ending indstead of say, Aerith?

I wonder if SE would take that risk. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Would people still buy Part 3?

If they did that, I think the backlash would be so huge there wouldn't be a Part 3.

At most, I think they might come up with a scenario where Tifa almost gets killed to play up our fears from the "vision" at Shinra HQ but subverts that by having Cloud save her. Perhaps that same scene from the vision would play out but Cloud having that premonition from part 1 is now prepared to save her.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
Hi everyone,

With all these old ACF members coming out of the woodwork, I'm finally going to de-lurk. Despite all the LTD-related shenanigans (and other...strange happenings), I always look back at my ACF/Faith days fondly as a time when the Internet was still good. (I don't know if y'all still remember me, but it's so nice to see your usernames again. I'm still using the same because I honestly haven't participated in Internet fandom in....over a decade, yeesh).

Back to the topic at hand, I was also extremely wary of the Remake after AC and SE's mediocre track record of releases over the past decade and change. So I was pretty shocked by how much I loved it, and how well Cloud and Tifa's relationship was handled played a huge part in that.

Having been forged in the crucible of LTD-arguments past (koi_bito will forever haunt my dreams), I almost felt like certain changes in the Remake were there just to debunk some of the more obnoxious critiques waged against Tifa/Cloti (i.e., Tifa being Cloud's childhood bully/forcing him into the promise/guilt-tripping him about it).

Not to mention how much Cloud-->Tifa we got here. I had slowly been falling out of love with the pairing over the years, because the older I got, the more I felt like Cloud was sort of a jerk and Tifa deserved better, but the Remake completely changed that for me. There's the physical protectiveness, attention to her emotional well-being, all the melodramatic hand clutches when he feels like he's failed her. But what truly shook me to my core was that we now have multiple canonical instances of Jealous!Cloud and Cloud awkwardly initiating flirting (there's the "Beautiful," of course, but also all the random compliments dashed in throughout -- joking that she's light, would be good at keeping her balance, etc.) Stuff my middle school self would have never even dared to dream of. At times, it almost felt like the first thing Cloud did when he got to Midgar was buy a copy of 'How to Flirt with the Girl You Like 101.' He's so awkward at it, but it's so endearing.

Obviously, my shipping googles are on 24/7, but you could almost argue that Cloud's emotional arc in FF7R up until they break into Shinra building is about him wanting to protect/comfort Tifa, which culminates with the resolution scene at the top of Chapter 14. Of course, a big part of his growth in this episode is him opening up to other people in general, but there is just so much Tifa dispersed throughout the story. It also ties in with his broader arc throughout the series in relation to his identity, something that his true feelings for Tifa are directly connected to.

From a "cinematic" standpoint, the game also does quite a bit to draw attention to their scenes. There's the famous hand-grab atop the pillar that's slowed down for no perceivable narrative reason. When Cloud remembers the promise, not only is it the only memory that doesn't bring him pain, but the game also breaks the rules of its own visual language by showing us a flashback of a scene we've already played through (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is the only time this happens during the game) when Cloud also recalls his earlier conversation with Tifa at the bar. More of a minor variation, but another instance is the close-up on their hands when Tifa saves him on the roof. There are so many wonderful subtle moments between them in the background, but there are also instances like these where it feels like the game is just screaming at us 'Hey! This is important. Pay attention.'

The revelation that Tifa's theme is actually a duet hit me like a freight train. I loved the way the first notes were tentatively played both when she saves him on the roof and also he has the flashback of her in Chapter 8. I'm probably forgetting something here as well, but I can't remember this happening with any other bits of the soundtrack. On another musical note, as much as the other side likes to use the instrumental Hollow playing in Sector 5 as ship proofz, I thought it was also very telling that the Main Theme AKA Cloud's Theme first plays in Sector 7. It's almost as if Cloud's subconscious feels like Sector 7, and Tifa in particular (especially at that point in the game) is home.

Timeline fuckery not withstanding, FF7R is the devs finally being able to tell the story they were always trying to tell and hopefully rectifying some misconceptions along the way. And I do think ending/clarifying the LTD is a part of that. For the audience to buy into Aerith's role in the game (Holy/Meteor, the impact of her death), you do not have to believe that Cloud is in love with her. That she's an important person to him, sure, and absolutely, but Aerith will be Aerith and her arc will be her arc with or without a romance with Cloud. On the other hand, for the audience to buy into Tifa's role in the game (i.e., the revelations in the Lifestream), you absolutely have to believe that Cloud is in love with Tifa. For some players of the OG, the Lifestream sequence might have felt like another twist, and I think that was probably the intention at least in part, given the 90s storytelling of it all and the game's desire to subvert expectations, but you can't have the same approach in a modern retelling. That Cloud was in love with Tifa all along has to feel organic, has to feel earned, and I think Part I of the Remake has laid a great foundation for that.

Which is why I'm not too worried about Tifa dying/Aerith living and getting together with Cloud in subsequent parts. SE's spotty recent track record aside, it just wouldn't make any narrative sense based on what we've seen over the past 23 years and their work thus far with the Remake. Final Fantasy 7 is not a love story and has never been a love story (says the person who's just written a thousand words on the subject - yikes!). That being said, Cloud and Tifa's relationship is integral to the overall narrative coherence of the series, whereas a happily ever after for Cloud and Aerith in life or death would more or less contradict the themes of the OG/entire Compilation. Why flush 23 years of work down the drain just to satisfy a small, albeit vocal, part of the fanbase? Also, I will have to say, if the intention of the Remake Project is to tell Cloud and Aerith's love story, then based on what they've set up in Part 1, the devs must truly be some of the most incompetent storytellers in the world, and as much shit as I've given them over the years, I do not think that is the case.

...Looking back at all this word vomit is kinda embarrassing, but this is what quarantine brain and having two months of thoughts with no outlet will do to you, I guess. I've really valued all the insights and observations I've found in this thread so I tried to keep this down to topics that I hadn't seen discussed in detail yet, though I'm sure the same has been said before and better elsewhere. Thanks to anyone who's indulged me. Hope to contribute more in the future, but nothing so obscenely long. xx
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
But even that doesn't make sense, because it was written like a teenage crush. Nojima outright retconned Aerith and Cloud's relationship in On the Way to a Smile. They never had this deep connection, and Aerith didn't have a profound effect on Cloud UNTIL she died.

The "koibito" line would make more sense if it was meant to show how delusional Aerith was about someone she only went on one or two dates with. What's even more incredible is that it was an outright slap in the face to Clerith-shippers in terms of the "show, don't tell" principle, but they use it as evidence.

Oh, and have this.

https://chatnoir-art.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F620753151136595968
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
We did it folks! I guess there is finally enough action in the Cloud X Tifa club to bring back OG forum members. I am completely new here but I am glad to see old forum members with interesting points of views. Welcome back to the forums!

@MasterMoogle BTW Look at poll results now. What happened. :headbang: There are a lot Cloud X Tifa out there in the wild!

 
Last edited:

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
We did it folks! I guess there is finally enough action in the Cloud X Tifa club to bring back OG forum members. I am completely new here but I am glad to see old forum members with interesting points of views. Welcome back to the forums!

@MasterMoogle BTW Look at poll results now. What happened. :headbang: There are a lot Cloud X Tifa out there in the wild!

Oeh I saw that, and saw that I was specifically banned by that person, I don't even know them 0.o'
So made a separate account just to get my vote in out of spite XD Rigging a poll by banning people who like Cloti is just stupid.
 
Top Bottom