Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[Eerie]

I've said it already, but to me parts of why the LTD exists, and even why people thought clerith was canon at first, was because cloti lacked the foundations to be credible once the Lifestream scene kicked in. People refused to believe in it because the game itself pushed clerith so much. So when you see that, you think it's not possible that Cloud loved Tifa, that he's over it, and anyway look at the end of the game, he wants to search for Aerith. Which is... well, why not? It's possible. The game had bad translations, but also lacked the nuances FFVIIR has, because of its blocky characters, one would be able to insert whatever he wanted there.

To me, this is something that Remake erases. Yes, you can favour one or the other girl, but in the end, all the shipping scenes are non-optional (except if you really don't want to beat 3 drones... lol). This puts cloti in such a favourable light, when we know what's coming up. Because with such realistic graphics, people can't hide behind "that's not how I envisioned things" because things are crudely described. This reminds me of what Nojima has said, that he needed to be much more precise, to adhere to the precise graphics. This, amongst other things, is exactly what he was talking about. This removes shipping goggles to an extent. People can't do anything but see what's happening. There is only such extent to which they can distort and push their own interpretation.

And, I have already noticed it here, but one of the things you could do to favour Tifa in the OG was to make Cloud her personal guard during fights. You'd subdue Cloud to Tifa, and gained LTD points towards Tifa when you'd block monsters' attack towards Tifa. And it's something I can't help but think when there is Cloud who very obviously saves her from a monster's attack (in a cinematic). It's like they incorporated this stuff into the game - the most visible one is during the Whisper Harbinger fight by the end, when Cloud saves Tifa. Oddly enough, the attack was only directed at Tifa, when Aerith was nearby and Cloud could have saved both. People will say "yeah, but Cloud saves everybody", which is true, but this one especially sticks out to me because of the way it plays out, and because I do remember this game mechanic from the OG.

Speaking of Cloud saving Tifa, I'll also note that when the plate falls and he picks up Tifa, literally saving her, up until he hugged her, which saved her mentally, giving her the strength that she needed. He's been her clutch way more than what this FC gives him credit for

 

[insanehobbit]

So much great discussion! I want to briefly jump back to the subject of Cloud's thirst in 'Alone at Last.' IIRC, after the Chapter 4 job, Jessie also invites him to come back to her room alone (though in a much more suggestive way, obvs), and Cloud knows exactly what she means. So I think it's pretty fair to assume that Cloud thought he was getting something action in Chapter 3.

We all muse about who loves whom. But in the remake, which covers maybe 20% of the OG, nobody really loves anyone in THAT way yet. So establishing CxT as a relationship of equals, where they can both rely on the other, is a good start to a healthy relationship. It's also a more modern and in-depth take on subverting the traditional hero vs damsel archetypes. What I mean is that instead of surprising the audience with the damsel saving the hero as the OG did with the lifestream event, we see them from the start in this egalitarian manner.

You put it a lot better than I did. As powerful of a fighter as Tifa is in the OG, you never get the sense that she's just as strong as Cloud or that he sees her that way. AC drops the ball in that respect too. How I wish we actually had solo Tifa fight where she was the victor. Instead, she was very much cast in the damsel/emotional support role in the film. (One day, I will stop bitching about AC, but sadly that is not today.)

Remake frames them as equals early on. From their first pest control mission, Cloud is just so impressed by her. He's surprised at first, but quickly accepts that she can handle herself, and pretty much starts looking at her as a mentor. (Side note: In retrospect, it's pretty clear that Tifa could have handled all those monsters on her own, so it's sweet that she had the jobs go to Cloud just so he could get himself established.)

Then we have Cloud explicitly saying he trusts her to handle herself when she goes off to Corneo's mansion (a favor that Tifa returns before the Rufus fight). Finally, in the Drum, they (as well as the rest of the party), immediately accept that Cloud and Tifa will be the respective leaders of their groups without discussion.

Also back to the screengrab a few pages ago when they're rescuing Aerith in Hojo's lab and you can see both Tifa and Cloud in the frame. Ship wars aside, the game is literally framing them as co-heroes in that moment. The game is told through Cloud's POV, but Tifa is just as much the hero as he is.

I know this is mostly a side effect from game mechanics, but I've really noticed this quality of Tifa and Cloud being an egalitarian pair from the combat gameplay. Aerith is a caster/ranged character, which is often pointed out in cutscenes, but it's really clear in ingame footage as well. I don't often use Aerith, but I've noticed a lot of time when watching other players use Aerith, that it's often Aerith by herself at a distance, with Cloud and Tifa together, almost synchronized, attack the enemy together.

I know this is probably mostly accidental (unlike the scene with the sahuagin where Tifa and Cloud fight back to back), but I just love how natural these two look fighting as a couple.

Which is why I don't think these choices were entirely accidental. They also have complimentary battle dialogue (even when they're not addressing each other). Also their matching asymmetric character designs. All of these are things that, taken on their own, I wouldn't put too much stock into, but altogether, it's like the game is subtly telling us, "Hey, aren't these two good together?"

There were discussions earlier on how Cloud seem to be quite happy at Sector 7 and even planned to stay a little longer, got me thinking that the Chapter Title, "Home Sweet Slum" isn't just a reference to Avalanche / Tifa's home, but perhaps for that few peaceful days, Cloud did feel like it was Home Sweet Slum indeed.

Many people think that the chapter 3 side quests are some of the most boring, but I thought it was FF7's version of a slice-of-life. We basically got a glimpse of how daily life for Cloud and Tifa could be - changing filters, finding kittens, pest control, some time alone and a drink at the bar after.

It really is very slice-of-life! And as much Cloud was moaning about the filters and finding the cats, he was definitely enjoying himself by the end of it, as much he tries to play it cool and nonchalant. Which got me to thinking, if Sephiroth hadn't come to Nibelheim, or if the two of them had actually looked at each other at the Water Tower, I think they would have been quite happy living a quiet, normal life in their little backwater town. Tifa never really grew up wanting to be a hero, and Cloud only wanted to be one to impress her. Not to say that their relationship would be perfect, but I don't think it would be from the ache of thinking that there must be something better out there, something that they have yet to fulfill.

I guess that is kind of the life they settle into Post-OG. Tending bar and running a delivery service is about as mundane and normal as you can get in that world of theirs.

 

[Stiggie]

Speaking of Cloud saving Tifa, I'll also note that when the plate falls and he picks up Tifa, literally saving her, up until he hugged her, which saved her mentally, giving her the strength that she needed

You know what always really stands out to me about that scene? Cloud grabs her by the shoulders and Tifa specifically raises both hands to touch his hands at her shoulders.

Normally, when people grab my hands, I can reflexively grab back, especially in dire straits, which is why I put less stock in individual moments of touching than other people (we are simply a species that uses our hands a lot) except that in aggregate I know that when people go out of their way to touch each other, it's for a reason, or when their touch lingers longer than necessary.

But when someone touches you and you respond by specifically moving your hands towards theirs when that's really unnecessary (like Tifa does on the plate scene, that feels meaningful to me, like she moves her hands towards his because that's simply where they belong.

The way Clouds hand lingers on her back when they catch Aerith in the sewers is somehow very endearing to me as well.
Like I recognize that touch from times when I wanted a reason to have physical contact with someone but knew I was just looking for excuses to do so.

 

[minami758]

I love their relationship so much and all this great discussion just gets me more excited for what's to come.

I know this is probably mostly accidental (unlike the scene with the sahuagin where Tifa and Cloud fight back to back), but I just love how natural these two look fighting as a couple.

There are so many great gifs on Twitter of these two just going at it during battle, and it just looks so in-sync. Please give us team-moves in the next installments, SE! Also that image of Cloud and Tifa back-to-back, SE seems to really enjoy using it for promo. I never get tired of seeing it. True battle couple indeed.

Finally, in the Drum, they (as well as the rest of the party), immediately accept that Cloud and Tifa will be the respective leaders of their groups without discussion.

I've spoken about this before, but I also like to think that this is a nod toward the latter parts of the OG, where Tifa leads the party when Cloud is gone. With the Remake, it's set up early on that Tifa is Cloud's right-hand woman in battle and in life. If he's the captain, then she's his lieutenant. So when we get to that loss of leadership in the Remake, the natural follow-up is Tifa because Cloud sees her as such.

I don't want to get deep into localization again and the frequency of name-calling, but it's also present in Japanese when the party is separated in the Drum. Cloud refers to the separated team as "Tifa-tachi," aka "Tifa and the others." It's not a big deal on the surface, but demonstrates that he also defaults to Tifa before anyone else.

The game is told through Cloud's POV, but Tifa is just as much the hero as he is.

I've always described Cloud and Tifa as two sides of the same coin. Were it Tifa who were experimented on by Hojo (nevermind that the SOLDIER program is sexist and doesn't seem to admit women), then FF7 could've very easily been from Tifa's POV.

While I've had my own issues with the OG in that Tifa doesn't get a section of backstory to herself, I also see the Lifestream just as much her backstory as it is Cloud's. It's only because we view the narrative from Cloud's eyes that Tifa doesn't seem to be as fleshed out in certain respects. That said, I do hope Tifa gets more development (during Nibelheim or otherwise) this time around, or that maybe we'll even run into Zangan at some point. I'd love to learn more about her first five years in Midgar or how she even got Zangan to train her in the first place.

I guess that is kind of the life they settle into Post-OG. Tending bar and running a delivery service is about as mundane and normal as you can get in that world of theirs.

After saving the world and suffering through so much, I'm glad that our heroes get to settle down and have some peace and quiet.

I know some Tifa fans have wished in the past that she'd become the token "strong female character" where she rebuffs Cloud and sets off on her own adventures, and disliked that she became a mother-figure to Denzel and Marlene. But "don't need any man Tifa Lockhart" was always a headcanon/fantasy, in my opinion. And I personally think we're beyond a time where female characters don't get to be badass without being lone wolves. Why can't Tifa be strong and independent while also living and raising children with the man she loves?

I'm reminded of the Patty Jenkins quote about why she included Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman (2017): "I feel like one of the most ironically sexist things that happened to women heroes for so long," Jenkins explained, "was that they had universal storytelling taken away from them. So, male superheroes could have Lois Lane. They can have love, they can have vulnerability, they can have complexity. But women superheroes or strong women characters had to be, 'I don’t need anyone, I’m the toughest person in the world.' That’s not fair to anybody. No human being is an island like that."

Do I think they could've portrayed Tifa (and everyone else tbh) much better in ACC? 100%. I think that film did all the characters a disservice. But my own personal gripes about character regression aside, I always saw Tifa (and Cloud) as people who just wanted simple lives. They were ordinary people thrust into an extraordinary adventure, and when they get the chance to be ordinary again, I'm not surprised they take it. Of course they'll rise to the occasion again whenever they're needed, but I'm glad they get to catch a break.

Ahh, went off on a tangent there, but it's just something I needed to get off my chest.

 

[Graymouse]

Wow, guys I leave the thread for about 10 hours and come back to a page and half of great discussions! I really love how active this thread is!

I know this is mostly a side effect from game mechanics, but I've really noticed this quality of Tifa and Cloud being an egalitarian pair from the combat gameplay. Aerith is a caster/ranged character, which is often pointed out in cutscenes, but it's really clear in ingame footage as well. I don't often use Aerith, but I've noticed a lot of time when watching other players use Aerith, that it's often Aerith by herself at a distance, with Cloud and Tifa together, almost synchronized, attack the enemy together.

I know this is probably mostly accidental (unlike the scene with the sahuagin where Tifa and Cloud fight back to back), but I just love how natural these two look fighting as a couple.

I just wanted to comment on this real quick. Like you said, I think Aerith just fell victim of being a magic user and healer. In traditional JPRG's the magic users and healers are almost always in the back. Otherwise they would be cut down almost immediately. So naturally she would stand towards the back of the party to offer support whenever it is needed. If anything I consider Aerith a Red Mage, and she plays an important role in the group as well.

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...518-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/

Found the page where her scar is described, @Cat on Mars although it is early material so not sure if it’s supposed to apply anymore.

For the way Cloud speaks to Tifa, I’ve already said it, but I find the EN version to be less gentle than the JP and FR one. It’s a wonder why they decided to go that route in the international version when it’s clearly not the case in other languages. I mean, it’s heavily oozing through Cloud’s speech mannerism that Tifa is special and that he treats her differently than the others. Why would he speak to her the same way he speaks to other characters in English only is weird to me.

Speaking of Cloud, again, when Alone at last starts, it’s really interesting because you see Tifa from Cloud’s eyes - it’s by the way not the only time this happens. And dang if Tifa isn’t gorgeous there. There is definitely some UST there that Tifa has to resolve or else it would have escalated lol.

That is interesting, how at the beginning that they were going to have Cloud give her the scar. I am so glad that they ditched that idea because I just couldn't bring myself to see him harming her in any way.

Whenever there is a VO option I exclusively play a game in Japanese on my first play through. This goes for all games and especially anime' . I do this simply because Japanese is the "canon" language and I know that the English dubs will almost always get a few things wrong when the localization team translates it over to English. There are a lot of mannerism that don't translate well from Japanese into English.


Edited to add: I have been watching this streamer by the name of Nyxipuff for a while. She is a huge Tifa fan. She played the OG FF7 for the first time, and I watched her go through that game and it was really fun. She is now going through the Remake. Be warned though she fan girls a lot, I mean A LOT!

 

[insanehobbit]

I've always described Cloud and Tifa as two sides of the same coin. Were it Tifa who were experimented on by Hojo (nevermind that the SOLDIER program is sexist and doesn't seem to admit women), then FF7 could've very easily been from Tifa's POV.

While I've had my own issues with the OG in that Tifa doesn't get a section of backstory to herself, I also see the Lifestream just as much her backstory as it is Cloud's. It's only because we view the narrative from Cloud's eyes that Tifa doesn't seem to be as fleshed out in certain respects. That said, I do hope Tifa gets more development (during Nibelheim or otherwise) this time around, or that maybe we'll even run into Zangan at some point. I'd love to learn more about her first five years in Midgar or how she even got Zangan to train her in the first place.

This is right on. Because the version of events we see is entirely filtered through Cloud's POV and since Tifa takes a backseat in the early parts of the game, on the surface, Tifa looks like a supporting character who is there to advance Cloud's development without any character arc of her own. But she does have an arc, it just happens to be almost the exact same as Cloud's. Not only do they have the same backstory (minus Hojo's experiments, of course), but all the major flashpoints in the OG's narrative (I'm specifically thinking about the multiple versions of the Nibelheim incident and of course the Lifestream) are just as important to Tifa's development as they are to Cloud's.

I do think the Remake is going to make this clearer. The first test will be how she reacts to Kalm flashback, so we'll learn soon enough, haha.

I know some Tifa fans have wished in the past that she'd become the token "strong female character" where she rebuffs Cloud and sets off on her own adventures, and disliked that she became a mother-figure to Denzel and Marlene. But "don't need any man Tifa Lockhart" was always a headcanon/fantasy, in my opinion. And I personally think we're beyond a time where female characters don't get to be badass without being lone wolves. Why can't Tifa be strong and independent while also living and raising children with the man she loves?

I think the response to Tifa's character in the Remake has been overwhelmingly positive, but I have seen some fans who feel like she's being done a disservice when she expresses her doubts about Avalanche's mission, and I'm honestly a little baffled. Not only does this line up with her portrayal in the OG (and she explicitly says this is how she felt in CoT), but it also makes her a more nuanced and complex character. Why wouldn't you want that?

That badass Tifa who sets off on her own adventures sounds like someone who's describing her entirely based on her character design, not her actual character. She's always been more of the team mom (and actual mom in AC). The Final Fantasy series does have plenty of those "badass" female characters, but Tifa isn't one of them.

@JT77fp earlier brought up the moment in the OG when Tifa has the "melodramatic" breakdown after Cloud goes missing. That's another moment that I'm really curious to see how the Remake handles. I did wince a little here during my most recent playthrough. Partly because I think the English translation has Tifa be a little too blunt in saying how she DGAF about the rest of the world, and partly because it seems to portray her as another woman who cannot function without a man.

But digging down a little, I actually think this is a great character moment for her. I've seen people criticize her for being selfish here, and I agree with that, though I would say it's actually a good thing. Up until that point, I would say that her biggest character flaw is that she's not selfish enough. She always put others ahead of herself, which results in her bottling up her true feelings, which is why they/Cloud are in this current predicament. (Side note: I really appreciated Aerith calling her out on this a little in the Remake while they're in The Drum). Once she thinks she's lost Cloud for good, she realizes, and more importantly, is able to admit to herself and the others, that the world isn't worth saving to her if he isn't in it. It's such an important step in her personal growth, and consequentially, by saving Cloud, she does help ensure that they do save the world.

 

[Stiggie]

it seems to portray her as another woman who cannot function without a man.

I really like that moment because it really feels like the world has sort of given up at that point, it's not that she doesn't give a crap about the world, it's that the moment meteor was summoned, there is this feeling of having failed, that they're all going to die, and that everyone now has to come to terms with that. At that moment Tifa has to choose what her place is, and she decides that she belongs at the side of Cloud, that that's where she's supposed to be.

Unlike Aerith, who is actually the only one who can save the planet, there is no reason for Tifa to think she's needed for the planet, but she knows she's needed with Cloud.

 

[Eerie]

I remember on my first playthrough, I did not like that Tifa chose to abandon the mission to remain by Cloud's side... mainly because she was my best character, so I had to abandon her hahaha. I was fuming :') I also did not understand her decision, since I was still young back then, I didn't get it. In hindsight, of course, this is an important decision for Tifa - she abandons the world for Cloud, and not any Cloud, but vegetative!Cloud, which shows her devotion and dedication, because finding a woman who does that at 20 years old is rare and shows just how strong Tifa's love is. This is wedding vows levels, and they were far from being wed at that point (well they still aren't because they don't care :') but you get my point).

When Tifa abandons her "let's save the world!" mission, it's also very clear that she isn't the kind of character who will go on solo missions to be a badass, that's just not her goal. People who kept pushing her into that role misremember the OG, or haven't played it. Even now in Remake, we see her going forward to fight alongside Cloud at the pillar, and going back at Shinra just in time to save him. Already we see her chosing him over her mission (running away in the sewers with Aerith, staying with Wedge and Aerith during the pillar fight, running away with the gang at Shinra Tower), so it's not like it's coming out of nowhere either.

 

[minami758]

I think the response to Tifa's character in the Remake has been overwhelmingly positive, but I have seen some fans who feel like she's being done a disservice when she expresses her doubts about Avalanche's mission, and I'm honestly a little baffled. Not only does this line up with her portrayal in the OG (and she explicitly says this is how she felt in CoT), but it also makes her a more nuanced and complex character. Why wouldn't you want that?

Oh for sure, she's struck a new cultural popularity peak with the Remake release. All the characters have, but Tifa in particular has captured hearts again like no other. She trended for like 2 days straight after the release in April. Kitase mentions in an interview that the moment that stood out to him the most at E3 2019 was the overwhelming response to Tifa's first appearance, haha.

I don't want to get too deep into social criticisms here, but I think the concept of nuanced, flawed, complex female characters has unfortunately taken too long to receive appreciation. FF7 was certainly ahead of the curve in creating characters like that (for video games), but even then Tifa got a lot of shit for having insecurities and being indecisive, aka acting like a human being. It hasn't been until the last decade or so that female characters that used to get shit on all the time for having emotions have been re-examined under a new lens by the masses.

The fact that Tifa is unsure about Avalanche's methods and yet still goes through with them makes her an infinitely more interesting character to me than one who is fully gung-ho about them.

Partly because I think the English translation has Tifa be a little too blunt in saying how she DGAF about the rest of the world, and partly because it seems to portray her as another woman who cannot function without a man.

I actually do think this was a problem with the flawed translation of the OG back in the 90s. IIRC, in Japanese, Tifa actually states that she knows she's being selfish for wanting to stay with Cloud and apologizes to the team for doing so. I think some of the re-translation mods that came out for the OG actually fix that piece of dialogue. I totally agree with the rest of your analysis.

Edited to add: I have been watching this streamer by the name of Nyxipuff for a while. She is a huge Tifa fan. She played the OG FF7 for the first time, and I watched her go through that game and it was really fun. She is now going through the Remake. Be warned though she fan girls a lot, I mean A LOT!

Nyxipuff is great for reactions, her love for Tifa is infectious, haha.

 

[Yumelinh]

Edited to add: I have been watching this streamer by the name of Nyxipuff for a while. She is a huge Tifa fan. She played the OG FF7 for the first time, and I watched her go through that game and it was really fun. She is now going through the Remake. Be warned though she fan girls a lot, I mean A LOT!

Nyxipuff is so relatable, lol. I love her videos!

I'm really curious to see how the Remake handles. I did wince a little here during my most recent playthrough. Partly because I think the English translation has Tifa be a little too blunt in saying how she DGAF about the rest of the world, and partly because it seems to portray her as another woman who cannot function without a man.

But digging down a little, I actually think this is a great character moment for her. I've seen people criticize her for being selfish here, and I agree with that, though I would say it's actually a good thing. Up until that point, I would say that her biggest character flaw is that she's not selfish enough. She always put others ahead of herself, which results in her bottling up her true feelings, which is why they/Cloud are in this current predicament. (Side note: I really appreciated Aerith calling her out on this a little in the Remake while they're in The Drum). Once she thinks she's lost Cloud for good, she realizes, and more importantly, is able to admit to herself and the others, that the world isn't worth saving to her if he isn't in it. It's such an important step in her personal growth, and consequentially, by saving Cloud, she does help ensure that they do save the world.

I used to have a problem with this particular scene too, for the same reasons that you mentioned here, and after learning the actual translation (which is way less harsh and more in Tifa's character) I came to soften up this scene (besides, my problem was never about Tifa staying behind with Cloud, that made sense, it was more related to the presented dialogue there). But your explanation here? Amazing! I think I came to appreciate this moment even more now.

If we stop to think about it, Tifa has always been selfless in an unhealthy amount. And in order for her to finally make a decision for herself, she literally needed to be put in a situation where she had to choose between fighting to try to save the world or help the person she loves the most, and for the first time she made a choice for herself. The world would still have the rest of the gang to fight for it, but Cloud only had her.

Honestly, the older I get, the more I understand that we need to learn to be selfish at times and put our well-being as a priority, or we may end up living a life full of regrets.

I'm reminded of the Patty Jenkins quote about why she included Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman (2017): "I feel like one of the most ironically sexist things that happened to women heroes for so long," Jenkins explained, "was that they had universal storytelling taken away from them. So, male superheroes could have Lois Lane. They can have love, they can have vulnerability, they can have complexity. But women superheroes or strong women characters had to be, 'I don’t need anyone, I’m the toughest person in the world.' That’s not fair to anybody. No human being is an island like that."

Do I think they could've portrayed Tifa (and everyone else tbh) much better in ACC? 100%. I think that film did all the characters a disservice. But my own personal gripes about character regression aside, I always saw Tifa (and Cloud) as people who just wanted simple lives. They were ordinary people thrust into an extraordinary adventure, and when they get the chance to be ordinary again, I'm not surprised they take it. Of course they'll rise to the occasion again whenever they're needed, but I'm glad they get to catch a break.

I absolutely agree! I also have a lot of problems with AC/C, but having Tifa (and Cloud) settling into a simple, peaceful life has never been one of them. After all, they went through, it seemed only right that they could finally rest and just live their lives, plus it was 100% in character with their personalities.

Also, this Patty Jenkins's quote:

Spoiler

 

[iamhorde]

Which got me to thinking, if Sephiroth hadn't come to Nibelheim, or if the two of them had actually looked at each other at the Water Tower, I think they would have been quite happy living a quiet, normal life in their little backwater town. Tifa never really grew up wanting to be a hero, and Cloud only wanted to be one to impress her.

I was thinking the same thing! We wouldn't have FF7 in that scenario but I'd want them to live a happy and peaceful life so much that I'd rather not have known of their existence and to let them live in peace. But then again, thinking from an alternate universe perspective, assuming Cloud and Tifa not leaving as a variable and Sephiroth still burning down Nibelheim as a constant, both our heroes may not have survived

On EN vs JP translations, some misconceptions of Tifa still seem to linger on the remake. An analysis from Tumblr clearly points this out and it seems to be written from a fan's neutral (non-shipping) point of view. The subtle differences was enough to make this person change their perception of Cloud & Tifa's interaction as being awkward to sweet. Sorry that my past several posts have been language comparisons, I'm not dissing translations as my first and default playthrough was in English.

You can read the analysis here. Would love to hear @odekopeko's thoughts on this too.

https://100wendybirds.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F621393182669897728

 

[JT77fp]

But digging down a little, I actually think this is a great character moment for her. I've seen people criticize her for being selfish here, and I agree with that, though I would say it's actually a good thing. Up until that point, I would say that her biggest character flaw is that she's not selfish enough.

At that moment Tifa has to choose what her place is, and she decides that she belongs at the side of Cloud, that that's where she's supposed to be.

I don't want to get too deep into social criticisms here, but I think the concept of nuanced, flawed, complex female characters has unfortunately taken too long to receive appreciation.

Awesome! I appreciated reading all these thoughts. Also the quotation from Patty Jenkins. I think it is hard to create strong female characters that are flawed because they are scrutinized for those flaws under a sexist lens more than male counterparts would. Tbh, sometimes Aerith cops that too.

Onto 'Alone at Last', I had to laugh @insanehobbit 'changing filters not really being about changing filters'!

For me, seeing how modest and sincere Tifa was about asking Cloud what fancy clothes would suit her was hilarious. It's perhaps a male perspective and cultural bias, but seeing a drop dead gorgeous woman asking such a modest question seems really really comical. I mentally rolled my eyes and thought, "anything... literally anything".

 

[odekopeko]

@iamhorde After watching the Alone At Last scene again in English, I think it's fine. I actually really like some of the dialogue changes they made here because the conversation sounds more natural. The English title is also much cuter to me than the Japanese one, 二人きりの時間, Alone Time.

I didn't really get the impression that Tifa was being pushy either. I think only someone bent on reading her character wrong would think like that. The only complaint I had was that Tifa's mannerisms when she backed away and held onto her stomach didn't match with what she said. It could be misread as expecting a rejection. But Cloud agrees to pick and outfit to go with hers is definitely a positive, and not a rejection. Plus when she said it's going to be fun, his musing tone and shy smile is hard to miss.

I would definitely have a problem if it was just dialog boxes like the OG, but this isn't the case here for me.

 

[RhinoKart]

Oh wow I'm so behind, such a great conversation going on in here!

(except if you really don't want to beat 3 drones... lol)

I actually love the message you get from the two versions of this scene. All game you get a "reward" of some kind for doing something extra. Get out of reactor 1 in 20 minutes you get extra items from Jessie, do all the side quests in chapter 3 and 8, you get a special cutscene. Beat the drones in the time limit and you get sexual tension with Tifa! I love that being Tifa's hero is literally a reward you should be aiming for.

Tifa asks Cloud to take care of the drones, she trusts him to handle them and live up to the SOLIDER skills he's been going on about. If he does, he also gets to live up to the promise and save her when she needs help. If he doesn't, she just saves herself and is just happy he got out too!

Then we have Cloud explicitly saying he trusts her to handle herself when she goes off to Corneo's mansion (a favor that Tifa returns before the Rufus fight).

Awww I love this observation, they both trust each other to handle things, but go back to help just in case. They are too adorable!

But "don't need any man Tifa Lockhart" was always a headcanon/fantasy, in my opinion

This never made sense to me, because I always saw the thing that Tifa wanted most to be a family, not because she is a women and all women should want that or something, but because it is the thing she constantly loses over the story. Her mom dies when she is young, her close friends all move away, her father is murdered, her town destroyed, and she builds a new family in sector 7 with Avalanche but she ends up losing most of them too. It's why she can't bring herself to leave Avalanche even when she disagrees with their methods, because she can't stand to lose another family all over again.

In case of Tifa she is constantly worried if this new family she has built is "normal" and when people suggest that it is she is happy. The thing she wants most of all is the thing that keeps being denied to her, a happy stable family life with people she loves and who love her.

earlier brought up the moment in the OG when Tifa has the "melodramatic" breakdown after Cloud goes missing. That's another moment that I'm really curious to see how the Remake handles. I did wince a little here during my most recent playthrough. Partly because I think the English translation has Tifa be a little too blunt in saying how she DGAF about the rest of the world, and partly because it seems to portray her as another woman who cannot function without a man.

While I think a good part of her staying behind is for love, I also always took this scene as Tifa feeling the overwhelming burden of guilt. She held back on telling Cloud the truth because she wasn't sure what to do and now she seems him before her in a coma. This is because he gave in to Sephiroth because Tifa had doubts about Cloud's identity. I imagine she feels that she is to blame and feels intensely guilty that the man she loves is in this state in part because of her and she wants to do anything she can to make it right. Just to be clear I'm not saying I blame her actions in the game, just that Tifa feeling guilty when things aren't really her fault follows how her character is portrayed.

 

[Yumelinh]

Speaking of the new additions from the Remake. Cloud being jealous of Tifa was something I definitely didn't expect, lol. And it is portrayed in such a cute/funny way.

Also, we can discuss whether or not Tifa was jealous at the Sewer/Train Graveyard scenes, but when it comes to Cloud there's literally no other explanation.

My fav is the one at Barret's Resolution scene. The boy whipped his head so faster at the mention of another guy using the flower trick on Tifa,lol.
( ship moment aside, Barret's Resolution was so good! All three resolutions got me feeling something )

In OG, Tifa's jealousness was always used as a way to show she had feelings for Cloud, but now in the Remake, we have him being the jealous one? The only thing I can think of is "oh! The tables have turned, indeed"

 

[insanehobbit]

I really like that moment because it really feels like the world has sort of given up at that point, it's not that she doesn't give a crap about the world, it's that the moment meteor was summoned, there is this feeling of having failed, that they're all going to die, and that everyone now has to come to terms with that. At that moment Tifa has to choose what her place is, and she decides that she belongs at the side of Cloud, that that's where she's supposed to be.

I slightly disagree with this, because when they find Cloud in Mideel, they are still in the midst of the Huge Materia quest. They still think they've got a shot, and even Shinra is pitching in stop the Weapons. (I think that moment comes a little later when we get to the Highwind scene. This time we have a non-vegetative Cloud who also decides his place is with Tifa.) I think that's why Barret is so dismayed by her reaction. From his perspective, it looks like Tifa has just decided to give up when there's still fighting to be done.

Speaking of Barret, I really enjoyed Tifa's interactions with the other Avalanche members on the Highwind for the brief period when she's the party leader. They all recognize how important Cloud is to her and show their support in various ways. Barret, as mentioned, is more concerned about her well-being than Cloud's, Red is just the sweetest and tries to be as helpful as he can, even Vincent....recites some emo goth poetry for her?

One thing I'm looking forward to the Remake expanding upon is the other party's members reactions to Cloud and Tifa's relationship post-Lifestream (but Pre-Highwind). I was a little disappointed in how the dialogue was pretty much all plot oriented from that point forward. Like @Eerie mentioned, they've just witnessed some "in sickness and in health" stuff from Tifa. I wouldn't be surprised if they all became mini-Marle's to Cloud at that point.

I also can't wait to see how Cloud and Tifa interact with each other during this time. They're almost on the same page re: their feelings for one another, but they haven't had the talk just yet, so there's just a sliver of doubt. (I've gotta poke fun of my girl here again, because she literally looks into the mind of the guy she likes, finds out that almost all of his thoughts are about her, and she's still like 'Hmmm, I wonder if he likes me like that.') If we already have this much unnecessary touching and sexual tension in Part 1, I cannot even imagine what we're getting here. I feel so bad for the third party member. (It's probably gonna be Barret, poor guy)

I don't want to get too deep into social criticisms here, but I think the concept of nuanced, flawed, complex female characters has unfortunately taken too long to receive appreciation. FF7 was certainly ahead of the curve in creating characters like that (for video games), but even then Tifa got a lot of shit for having insecurities and being indecisive, aka acting like a human being. It hasn't been until the last decade or so that female characters that used to get shit on all the time for having emotions have been re-examined under a new lens by the masses.
.

I'm actually shocked that Square gave us such an amazing character in 1997 (though to be fair to them, they've had pretty good track record with female protagonists. The Terra/Celes duo in FF6 was also way ahead of their time). Which is probably why Tifa has gotten so much shit over the years and most of it is deeply misogynistic. Like I love the dude, but Cloud essentially lies to everyone for 2/3s of the game while erasing the existence of his best friend who gave his life for him, and the reaction is 'Wow, what a complicated, subversive protagonist.' Tifa withholds the truth to stop said protagonist from having a breakdown, and reaction to her is 'Wow, what a lying, manipulative bitch.' Luckily, these voices are definitely in the minority now, but like seriously people, read a fucking book.

For me, seeing how modest and sincere Tifa was about asking Cloud what fancy clothes would suit her was hilarious. It's perhaps a male perspective and cultural bias, but seeing a drop dead gorgeous woman asking such a modest question seems really really comical. I mentally rolled my eyes and thought, "anything... literally anything".

I am grateful for your male perspective, because I didn't think about that at all! It's hilarious that Tifa looks to Cloud of all people for fashion advice. Though the options we get are perfectly in line with what a 16-year old boy who doesn't know the difference between a dress and a skirt would choose.

I actually love the message you get from the two versions of this scene. All game you get a "reward" of some kind for doing something extra. Get out of reactor 1 in 20 minutes you get extra items from Jessie, do all the side quests in chapter 3 and 8, you get a special cutscene. Beat the drones in the time limit and you get sexual tension with Tifa! I love that being Tifa's hero is literally a reward you should be aiming for.

Lol, I would almost say the game is punishing you by denying you the train roll. Like you have to actively be bad at the game to avoid it. I'm a pretty mediocre gamer, and I had no trouble clearing it in Hard mode with plenty of time to spare. It's even easier than the OG version of this scene, where you really have to hustle down the train in under 30 seconds or so.

 

[Graymouse]

After all these bricks of text in the past couple of posts, (not complaining the discussion is great) I think it is time for some pictures.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274272462260199424

Cloud pushing Tifa against a glass window of a train. It must be really crowded. I am sure Cloud don't mind.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274442900932300804

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274391806365429760

Damn, Jealous Cloud.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274343592727732224

For those who like domestic Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Eerie]

The English title is also much cuter to me than the Japanese one, 二人きりの時間, Alone Time.

Isn't the JP title referring to a date-like time? I think it was Strangelove who mentioned it in the LTD thread.

I just rewatched the scene in French, and it flows pretty much like in JP, I didn't think it was unnatural.

You can see it here, the title is "Un moment à deux", which is probably also close from the JP and does highlight at a special moment between the two. The whole scene in French is sweet, and it's funny the youtuber goes "but I think she's already perfect" when Tifa asks what she should wear

Edit: damn it I was in a hurry and forgot to share at the right time stamp, sorry folks I will update later!
Edit2: starts at the right t ime stamp now!

 

[Graymouse]

Isn't the JP title referring to a date-like time? I think it was Strangelove who mentioned it in the LTD thread.

I just rewatched the scene in French, and it flows pretty much like in JP, I didn't think it was unnatural.

You can see it here, the title is "Un moment à deux", which is probably also close from the JP and does highlight at a special moment between the two. The whole scene in French is sweet, and it's funny the youtuber goes "but I think she's already perfect" when Tifa asks what she should wear

Watching that scene in French, is freaking sexy. French is definitively the romance language for sure!

 

[odekopeko]

Isn't the JP title referring to a date-like time? I think it was Strangelove who mentioned it in the LTD thread.

Literally, yes it's Alone Time for Two. The Jp title is more neutral. I think it's just my personal preferences. I prefer Alone At Last.

Based on what I've read from your posts, though, I honestly think Japanese translates to French more naturally than it does to English.

 

[Eerie]

I don’t think French and JP are close though both are high context languages, that’s about the only thing that connects them lol. But I also remember that localisation was heavy in EN to fit what players expected from the characters - something that was not done in other languages.

 

[Purple]

Popping in to add that the leg straddling scene was deliberately animated and rendered. There were a million of other ways to do their scenes together but the devs chose to make them touchy towards one another. A sign of great things to come? I’m cautiously optimistic about it

 

[Eerie]

Marle truly is such a cloti shipper lmao. I noticed while linking the video that when she tells Cloud "be nice to Tifa!" and he answers "but I am", she answers "I'm telling you to be attentive, not interested!" Implying that he's acting like about all Tifa's suitors up to that point (so he's interested) - but he does listen to marle and change afterwards with Tifa. I like it cause the FR lays down that Cloud is interested in Tifa. Sorry can't know for the JP or the EN there, but it made me smile so! (it's probably been already said by the way :')).

 

[Chonkoboo]

Have anyone else caught Cloud's nod of agreement to what Aerith said in this part?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274828616333815808

 

[Purple]

Alone At Last has a longing tone to it. Also, nothing against the Tumblr translator, but it seems like she’s kinda reading Tifa’s character wrong in English

She says in English it feels like Tifa is throwing herself at Cloud and that she’s pushy and controlling (lol whut)...but in Japanese, she likes Tifa “a bit”. Call me a tired and cynical LTD spectator, but maybe she prefers the other heroine.

She’s also quite negative about almost all of the lines in the English localization and is reachin’ with some of her comments, so eh *shrugs*

“This is gonna be so much fun, you’ll see!” = pushy and controlling? My first time to hear it