Fat Princess: Helping to create...

[Max Payne]

I guess I just shrugged it off because, GASP?! A video game that centers around rescuing a Princess? How sexist!

Mario, Zelda, anyone? What about the critically acclaimed games Ico and Braid? It's nothing new or unusual, and I guess why people have decided to kick up a fuss over a cell shaded comedic RTS.

And yes, it's supposed to funny. Maybe not satirical, but it wasn't meant to taken seriously: " comic medieval battle royale", as stated on the official site.

Makes me think people are offended because it's a fat princess. It's ok to have a hapless princess as long as she's attractive.

pretty much this.

Never mind the women are kept in cages, BUT THEY EAT AND ARE FAT OMG

Not to mention they get fat within seconds

 

[Celes Chere]

'm sorry, but that's like saying I shouldn't get upset with Twilight's sexist portrayal of it's characters because it's a work of fiction. Just because it's a work of fiction doesn't make something any less offensive.

I'm trying to say that these works of fiction aren't trying to target anyone specifically. Like Dacon said, it's mean to be ridiculous, not to insult overweight women. Like I said, people are always going to be offended. There is nothing anyone can do about it, unless we want to ban all media from the world, forever. Even then, people will find something else. I just don't think this "Fat Princess" stuff is that big of a deal, especially compared to a lot of other games. I'm just trying to say that these characters aren't real, and that they aren't trying to target people.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm sorry, but that's like saying I shouldn't get upset with Twilight's sexist portrayal of it's characters because it's a work of fiction. Just because it's a work of fiction doesn't make something any less offensive.

@Dacon
There are? I only know of some survival horror games, Portal and some JRPGs. Are there more?

Sorry I missed your post, but RPG games like Fallout and Oblivion are full of them, there's quite a few in some FPs games.

They just really don't stand out much.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Sorry I missed your post, but RPG games like Fallout and Oblivion are full of them, there's quite a few in some FPs games.

They just really don't stand out much.

I think that's because in games like Oblivion and Fallout, they're more side characters than main characters. Both games have positive portrayals of women, and I'm glad for that. But getting a female in a game that can be taken seriously shouldn't be like pulling teeth. Bethesda is realizing this, at least.

 

[Max Payne]

I think that's because in games like Oblivion and Fallout, they're more side characters than main characters. Both games have positive portrayals of women, and I'm glad for that. But getting a female in a game that can be taken seriously shouldn't be like pulling teeth. Bethesda is realizing this, at least.

Well there's Borderlands, Pariah, and several other games.

But why can't sexy women be taken seriously too? That would be like me saying I can't take men in any game seriously because they're all either testosterone driven, unrealistic supergods, or overly sexualized, superhot supergods.

I just look past all that shit to the personality and character within, and if that isn't there I move on to something better.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@CelesChere

That's a ridiculous assertion because there are plenty of games that are able to not be criticized for being offensive by...not doing culturally and societally offensive shit. The, "can't please everyone" argument is intellectual laziness and insensitivity. Yeah, GTA has always been criticized for its portrayal of women and shit, so I don't see how you can say this game is being unfairly targeted for what its portraying.

Just because it's fiction doesn't remove it from the reality and existence of the culture and society that created it. A real person created it and tailored it for people to buy and consume. Messages exist in media, society, and everywhere. Because cultural bias is inherent in anything we do as people. Again, nothing is created in a cultural and societal vacuum free of human interpretation and ideas.

Critiquing and calling out racist/sexist/clasist/etc bullshit exists so that change can occur and the same negative and demeaning messages that exist aren't perpetuated in society. You don't censor, but you don't stay silent either.

@Dacon

The point with Family Guy is because its fucking satire that doesn't advocate or show those negative cultural and societal messages as positive or right. No, it actually makes fun of them and shows them for stupid. It's not meant to be serious and actually shows the stupidity and madness of it all. You're not making sense comparing a game that carries no satirical message, to a show that IS satire and comedy. They're not the same thing.

It's not about having it both ways, its about comparing two entirely different genres of media. I already said the negative connotations but you're taking them out of context. It's the message and view of society that's reinforced. Its not fucking brainwashing women to eat.

Yeah, things can be taken at face value but this is it AT face value. You're force feeding a woman to eat, who complies and eats to the point she's huge and can't move or be carried. I don't understand how you can't see how that'd NOT be offensive to an overweight woman. Fuck, it's ridiculous.

Nothing offensive tries to target anyone specifically. It just reinforces the same shit societal negativity that permeates reality as is.

And that argument regarding men is not the same thing, because men are not objectified to the same level as women. They are not on the same level of portrayal or equality. Men aren't judged solely as objects to be possessed or rescued, nor are they made or encouraged to conform to inferiority and helplessness.

But you do bring up a good point about men being constantly scrutinized and held under a lens of machoism and masculinity.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well there's Borderlands, Pariah, and several other games.

But why can't sexy women be taken seriously too? That would be like me saying I can't take men in any game seriously because they're all either testosterone driven, unrealistic supergods, or overly sexualized, superhot supergods.

I just look past all that shit to the personality and character within, and if that isn't there I move on to something better.

Women can totally be sexy as long as they have personality or backstory along with it. Lara Croft, at least, has a backstory. I can respect Nariko because she has a backstory that explains why she acts the way she does.

I guess this is why fighting games can be such a pain in the ass when it comes to writing, because it can be a real hassle to figure out what the hell is going on with the character unless they explain it at the beginning like Tekken 4(or was it five? I forget.) I like my women, first and foremost, with personality and backstory.

 

[Max Payne]

Bullshit Mako, satire or not IT'S STILL OFFENSIVE to someone. It doesn't matter what the intent is, according to you, as long as someone is offended. It's still picking and choosing.

This game is meant to be comedic and not taken seriously. Anyone who freaks out over it is clearly not looking at the game objectively, or have the self esteem of a turd. It's comedy, meant to amuse and entertain people.

It's not about society, or people. It's a game, it's meant to be funny. People are forcing a woman to eat to make her impossible to be carried away quickly, and she gets giant in a manner of seconds. That's not reflective of ANYTHING in society. It's silly to get upset about.

BTW Nin, I generally only look to fighting games for violence, not story and pretty women.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It'd be offensive because it'd be taken out of its satirical context. That's not its intent. Hell ANYONE can be offended by anything. But it has to have actual basis and context for the offensiveness to have merit. Being offended by satire is the point. It's not MEANT to be taken for real, and it doesn't positively reinforce or validate such offensive portrayals. There's a big difference.

The game may be comedic but it's entirely lacking the context of portraying the said overeating and implication of fat women (or hell women in general) lacking in self control and gorging themselves, as stupid and ridiculously untrue. It's not the same thing as satire.

And it is about society and people, numbnuts. Because the game EXISTS in society. Where does it come from? Hell? Mars? It was made here BY people FOR people IN society. Meaning, it carries with it the bias and messages of the society that created it.

I wouldn't say any video game that has a damsel in distress is sexist, btw. It truly depends on the context of the creator and game itself. The Legend of Zelda series is certainly not sexist because it shows Zelda kicking so much ass and being a strong character. Mario isn't sexist because it shows women who aren't just damsels in distress and while Peach my be airheaded and constantly the object of rescue, she's hardly the norm of women in the series.

Context is fucking everything in critique.

 

[Munatik]

I agree on some level that negative images of women in video games are very hard to avoid. I see where there is an "Oh well, it won't change, so get over it" kind of attitude as well, and you're right that it's not anything to lose sleep over. However, not everyone has to agree that it is an excuse. I'm sure plenty of us know that it's possible for games to be fun without having to tack these kinds of shallow indignities upon characters of any gender or body type. There are great examples of women in video games out there who retain some measure of dignity while the games themselves are still fun. Metroid, anyone?

Makes me think people are offended because it's a fat princess. It's ok to have a hapless princess as long as she's attractive.

No, that's not exactly it, either. It's the fat thing, but it's also the hapless thing. So yeah, it's hard to say that Mario and Zelda aren't completely guiltless in this regard, at least in some of their incarnations. At the very least we can identify that the Princess in Super Mario Bros. is not the epitome of how women ought to be represented in video games, even if the game itself is otherwise fun.

And as mentioned, there's also the reverse, where women are portrayed as busty sex objects, even if they do happen to kick ass. However, there's a pointlessness to this as well except for how much it makes up for in actual substance (when that's all it is).

Really, the biggest problem is the pointlessness of it. There is no point in portraying a women in this way when game developers are clearly capable of moving beyond such immature depictions by either creating positive images or nothing at all.

 

[Celes Chere]

That's a ridiculous assertion because there are plenty of games that are able to not be criticized for being offensive by...not doing culturally and societally offensive shit.

Yeah, ones that are rated "E". Even then, I bet someone could get offended by something in it.

The, "can't please everyone" argument is intellectual laziness and insensitivity. Yeah, GTA has always been criticized for its portrayal of women and shit, so I don't see how you can say this game is being unfairly targeted for what its portraying.

Or maybe it's intellectual laziness because I don't agree with you? =/ It's the truth, not laziness or insenitivity. I basically agree with this:

Makes me think people are offended because it's a fat princess. It's ok to have a hapless princess as long as she's attractive.

Just because it's fiction doesn't remove it from the reality and existence of the culture and society that created it. A real person created it and tailored it for people to buy and consume. Messages exist in media, society, and everywhere. Because cultural bias is inherent in anything we do as people. Again, nothing is created in a cultural and societal vacuum free of human interpretation and ideas.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Nin.
"I'm trying to say that these works of fiction aren't trying to target anyone specifically. Like Dacon said, it's mean to be ridiculous, not to insult overweight women. Like I said, people are always going to be offended. There is nothing anyone can do about it, unless we want to ban all media from the world, forever. Even then, people will find something else. I just don't think this "Fat Princess" stuff is that big of a deal, especially compared to a lot of other games. I'm just trying to say that these characters aren't real, and that they aren't trying to target people."

It's not MEANT to be taken for real

And neither is this game.

implication of fat women (or hell women in general) lacking in self control and gorging themselves, as stupid and ridiculously untrue. It's not the same thing as satire.

So, as long as it's satire, it's OKAY to insult people? Sorry, but I fail to see the logic there. :/ If this fat woman thing is so offending, you should be offended by satire as well.

 

[Max Payne]

It's intent is it's goofy over the top shit that people play after they've had a bad day.

The damn game is labeled as a comedic.

And it is about society and people, numbnuts. Because the game EXISTS in society. Where does it come from? Hell? Mars? It was made here BY people FOR people IN society. Meaning, it carries with it the bias and messages of the society that created it.

Bullshit. It's not about society, it's about a made up world where people get fat in seconds and the only logical way the people in the world can think of to keep their woman from getting abducted is to make them fat.

There's no message here. It's diversionary entertainment meant to distract people from their lives for a little while. There's no bias either. No one made this game to show fat people as awful inept creatures, nor women. If anything it shows the creatures ingame as absolutely stupid. Just because it's made by people in society, doesn't make it about the people in society, that's fucking retarded.

The people did not put that kind of thought into this game, it doesn't tell a story, it doesn't deliver some message. It's goofy, bloody, stupid action. A comedy game.

It's not meant to be representative of ANYTHING in real life other than midget people who get a fake woman fat. Does that sound like something in real life?

The only way this game is offensive is if people choose to perceive it that way. If it wasn't a fat woman in this game no one would give a shit. Hell she doesn't even start out as or stay fat!
It's just another avenue for people to yell sexism or some other bullshit.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@CelesChere

Again, there's a difference between legitimate criticism, and criticism with no basis. There are plenty of well done games that are able to somehow escape objectifying women and not portray fat people as cows, and not garner negative critique. It's not that hard to do.

I didn't say you were intellectually lazy, I said the argument/excuse of, "can't please anyone" doesn't absolve or excuse a work of media for being racist, sexist, or whatever. By pushing the responsibility of seeing offensive and shitty implications on the viewer, you're absolving the person who actually MADE said offensive shit of responsibility of purporting negative messages. It's bullshit.

They don't have to try to target anyone specifically to carry the same genderfail messages that society is mired in. People don't have to make a game called, "FUCK WOMEN AND THEN KICK THEM REPEATEDLY BECAUSE THEY'RE WHORES" to make a game insensitive to women that objectifies them. By carrying the same negative societal connotations and messages, they support and reinforce patriarchal bullshit and misogyny. It's shit like that that subtly reinforces the status quo.

Maybe you're missing what satire is. Satire shows human bullshit, abuses, and shortcomings. They hold it up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, irony, and other methods that show how ridiculous and stupid it is. It can be funny, but its not meant to actually validate it. If you get offended by it, you're missing the point. It's supposed to show how stupid it is, by actually showing it and then making fun of it because of its stupidity.

@Dacon

That's supposed to make it somehow okay for it to carry stupid, societal messages that carry on negative portrayals of women and overweight people? It's intent and creative purpose means nothing in terms of the message it has. People are still going to see it and react to the connotation it carries. It fucking purports the negative objectification of people in the world by doing so, and continuing it.

It'll distract people but it also carries with it a cold and offensive message by showing a fat person eating like a cow. An overweight woman will feel like it's rather rude and obnoxious..being shown a characture of another overweight woman, eating to the point of excess and immobility. The game becomes just another channel where the societal view of fat people being uncontrollable eaters, will show itself.

No, I doubt they did put that thought into the game. I don't think they're mean, spiteful people who like to poke fun at fat people. Not at all. But people can unconsciously support negative societal norms and not realize it. It happens. They grow up in such a society and shit, that it just seems "normal" and "harmless" to them.

The fact she doesn't start out fat, makes it just as bad or worst. It again, shows that women have no self control and just eat. And eat. They don't know better. No, its not a choice to perceive it because its there. You're trying to admonish it, by saying its "just for fun" but things "just for fun" are to be held accountable for their messages and shit.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

BTW Nin, I generally only look to fighting games for violence, not story and pretty women.

And that's a totally fine reason to play fighting games. Unfortunately, there are some games solely to watch girls pull each other's hair and go all catfight on one another (see Rumble Roses series). I sincerely doubt there's a lot of respect or story in those games.

 

[Max Payne]

Again, there's a difference between legitimate criticism, and criticism with no basis. There are plenty of well done games that are able to somehow escape objectifying women and not portray fat people as cows, and not garner negative critique. It's not that hard to do.

I didn't say you were intellectually lazy, I said the argument/excuse of, "can't please anyone" doesn't absolve or excuse a work of media for being racist, sexist, or whatever. By pushing the responsibility of seeing offensive and shitty implications on the viewer, you're absolving the person who actually MADE said offensive shit of responsibility of purporting negative messages. It's bullshit.

They don't have to try to target anyone specifically to carry the same genderfail messages that society is mired in. People don't have to make a game called, "FUCK WOMEN AND THEN KICK THEM REPEATEDLY BECAUSE THEY'RE WHORES" to make a game insensitive to women that objectifies them. By carrying the same negative societal connotations and messages, they support and reinforce patriarchal bullshit and misogyny. It's shit like that that subtly reinforces the status quo.

Maybe you're missing what satire is. Satire shows human bullshit, abuses, and shortcomings. They hold it up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, irony, and other methods that show how ridiculous and stupid it is. It can be funny, but its not meant to actually validate it. If you get offended by it, you're missing the point. It's supposed to show how stupid it is, by actually showing it and then making fun of it because of its stupidity.

Then family guy has barely been satire for years. All they do now is insult everyone and everything.

The game doesn't carry any of that shit. It's not about the woman, it's about the war. She's not a person, she's an objective to capture. There's no logic to any of it, it's meant to be silly, and over the top. The woman gets fat, and she can be shrunk back down. None of this happens at the behest of the character ingame. It's not about any of the shit people are throwing a fit over.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why the fuck are we even talking about Family Guy here, again?

I don't buy that, but whatever. Believe what you want about the show.

And there you go. You said it yourself, she's an object to capture. Do you not see how that just channels in the societal view of women = objects to be possessed? Do you not see how its parroting the message of, "fat people are dumb and will eat anything in front of them, even to the point of looking ugly and obese?" You seriously don't see how that message is conveyed through this? And how a woman or overweight person would seriously find issue with that? Overweight people have been the butt of shit for years. It's not just a harmless joke or game.

I don't give a fuck if its a game or not. The fact is, is that its conveying these negative messages and again, is bolstering the status quo.

 

[Max Payne]

Why the fuck are we even talking about Family Guy here, again?

I don't buy that, but whatever. Believe what you want about the show.

And there you go. You said it yourself, she's an object to capture. Do you not see how that just channels in the societal view of women = objects to be possessed? Do you not see how its parroting the message of, "fat people are dumb and will eat anything in front of them, even to the point of looking ugly and obese?" You seriously don't see how that message is conveyed through this?

I don't give a fuck if its a game or not. The fact is, is that its conveying these negative messages and again, is bolstering the status quo.

She isn't fat until you make her fat, nor does she stay that way, she only listens because she'll die otherwise. I didn't say she was an object, I said she was the OBJECTIVE. She doesn't get ugly, she looks pretty much the same as she did when she was small, just bigger. She only gets larger to make her harder to capture. It's supposed to be retardedly silly.

She's only a woman in appearance, otherwise she's just a factor in the game. The whole game is basically spitting in the typical damsel in distress stereotype and shooting it through the roof.

If anyone takes this that damn seriously, they either know very little of the game, or they're just judging it because there's a woman who can get fat in it. You have to be pretty damn dense to know everything about the game, and play it thinking it's about some stupid genderfail crap. There's no fucking message, it's stupid to think there is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

She isn't fat until you make her fat, nor does she stay that way, she only listens because she'll die otherwise. I didn't say she was an object, I said she was the OBJECTIVE.

Hence my saying that it purports and reinforces the genderfail message of women lacking self control and eating to the point of obesity. Women are constantly pressured and under scrutiny regarding how much they eat and how much weight they gain. They fear not exercising enough control in what they eat because they'll be viewed as pigs. My mistake in saying you said "object" but she still is objectified. She's an object to be captured. She sits passively and eats.

And yes, we're judging it because its a woman and she gets fat. That's the entire point. It's the societal connotations that are being conveyed here. Yeah, its about her being a woman and about weight. No one denied that. It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

 

[Max Payne]

Hence my saying that it purports and reinforces the genderfail message of women lacking self control and eating to the point of obesity. Women are constantly pressured and under scrutiny regarding how much they eat and how much weight they gain. They fear not exercising enough control in what they eat because they'll be viewed as pigs. My mistake in saying you said "object" but she still is objectified. She's an object to be captured. She sits passively and eats.

She's objectified, in the sense that they're trying to keep her alive by making her fat, and the enemy is trying to make her smaller to capture her easily. It's a retarded form of capture the flag, it's not about women or being fat.It's not about her at all. It's about keeping the enemy from winning.

Making the entire game about that is ignorant and stupid.

And yes, we're judging it because its a woman and she gets fat. That's the entire point. It's the societal connotations that are being conveyed here. Yeah, its about her being a woman and about weight. No one denied that. It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

People in society don't put women in cages, tell them they'll die if they don't eat enough to turn into a whale so they can't be carried off by the enemy. That's retarded. It's not about a woman, or her weight, it's about a princess, and doing something stupid to keep her from being captured. It's a small factor of a war game centered around a crazy man's version of capture the flag.

And thank you for saying that, because pretty much no one would give a shit if it was a fat king being tossed around like a football.

 

[Cthulhu]

And there you go. You said it yourself, she's an object to capture. Do you not see how that just channels in the societal view of women = objects to be possessed?

Being the eternally and infinitely positive Great Old One that I am, I'd say that capturing a fat woman to win the game is a clear indication to the players that fat women are desirable and should be chased after, .

 

[Makoeyes987]

Stop taking shit literally because it's not about literal messages. It's about the underlying sexist messages and female objectification that exist in society. Again, you don't have to make a game where you beat up hookers, rape them, and then kill them to portray women in a negative light. The are other ways that purport and reinforce misogyny.

Does the game feature a woman? Does it feature a woman eating to excess against all reason? Is she objectified? Yes. It's stupid alright, but its also offensive too.

And again, I did say that it would still be offensive. In a different way. It's still negative shit for overweight people too. The fact she's female adds an entirely new spin on it.

@Cthulhu

This game, totally condones chubby chasing. Rly.

The fact she's an "object of desire" doesn't change she's still objectified. Hence, fail.

 

[Dumb Apple]

I feel like I'm the person in the corner going "Uh, guys?" and point out all the other misogynistic and male chauvinistic games out there.

I'm really, genuinely confused why this game is causing such a stir, when it portrays nothing new or unusual, other then the fact that she's fat. Would people be so upset if she never gained weight, and instead of feeding her cakes you just built more locks around her?

Again, I feel as though people are more upset over the fact that she's fat then anything. A person is forced to eat cake, the person gets fat. Whoa, that's actually feasible, but oh nos, it's a sexist representation.

Let me haul myself over in my stiletto heals, bathing suit, and boobs proportionate to my head to say something.

Is it "better" if the misrepresentation is something like Soul Calibur IV, or Dead or Alive, when the characters are all gravity defying physically impossible tits of doom clad in underwear with delusions of grandeur?

I feel like they're doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons. Thank you! People are finally commenting on the misrepresentation of females in video ga- ... wait, you picked that game for those reasons?

[edit: frickin' typos]

 

[Arianna]

@Arianna: Here's why.

Yeah, I'll agree... *nods*

PS: I saved this to my computer, and would like to use it. If it's yours, may I have permission?

 

[Max Payne]

Stop taking shit literally because it's not about literal messages. It's about the underlying sexist messages and female objectification that exist in society. Again, you don't have to make a game where you beat up hookers, rape them, and then kill them to portray women in a negative light. The are other ways that purport and reinforce misogyny.

Okay, stop trying to perceive some underlying message because it's not about underlying messages. It's not a deep thought provoking game. It's diversionary fun based around a stupid concept. It's not about messages at all. It doesn't tell a story, hell IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE.

You can try and make it about it some bullshit gender/fat hate, but it's clearly not the intention of those who created it, and therefore it's all bullshit. Hell one of the developers is a fucking woman.

And again, I did say that it would still be offensive. In a different way. It's still negative shit for overweight people too. The fact she's female adds an entirely new spin on it.

Bah, people still wouldn't care as much. The amount of people who complained would be significantly smaller.

 

[Makoeyes987]

First off, Holy Shit. Where the hell have YOU been, Geo?! Wtf?

I'm really, genuinely confused why this game is causing such a stir, when it portrays nothing new or unusual, other then the fact that she's fat. Would people be so upset if she never gained weight, and instead of feeding her cakes you just built more locks around her?

See the previous arguments and critical commentary on said game.

If she didn't gain weight.....I wouldn't be as offended. Because then it'd be just female objectification again, where the woman is made to be an object of capture. The same old game design shit that's been present since games were created. But they've tacked on another bullshit negative societal message to it, so yes, its more offensive.

Is it "better" if the misrepresentation is something like Soul Calibur IV, or Dead or Alive, when the characters are all gravity defying physically impossible tits of doom?

I don't have a problem with Soul Calibur since it portrays said female characters as women who kick ass and look sexy doing it. Their sexuality and looks are not the base sum of their appearance and appeal. They're strong. They're powerful. They can go toe-to-toe with the next big guy with a big sword. Dead or Alive on the other hand...eh. I definitely see why it garners the criticism it relieves.

@Dacon

I'm not trying to perceive anything. People see it. I could just say to you, stop being blind, and open your eyes to negative bullshit

Again, just because its "diversionary fun" doesn't exclude it from critique or the fact it was made by society and carries messages FROM society. I've explained the intention of the creators means nothing if it still carries with it the negative connotations society has regarding women and weight.

And news flash. Women can be just as sexist or more, than men. That's supposed to make it okay?

And I dunno. You could be right or wrong. But that still doesn't mean anything.