FF Newbie Starting FF7 original

[Makoeyes987]

Would you say that events that change the course of the game later on like

Spoiler

completing Wutai causing the Turks fight at the end of the game to be skippable

would fall under those, or do you think it’s OK because the game is still completable without it?

For me, I love the obscure content games of old had; it deepened the mystery and satisfaction of discovery. Modern games are a lot more face-value.

I love and hate it. I love it because it does make it fun and interesting, however I also don't like how most of it has zero clues or telegraphs for their existence.

I would sorta classify that Turk event, but at the same time, Yuffie does sorta nudge the player to check out Wutai once you get the Tiny Bronco. ".........Hm. How 'bout goin' west? No, no reason. NO reason at all!" It's not really specific where "west" is, but it's something. Although Yuffie is a secret character anyways so There should be a better event check and warning for things like that, and then the player can have choice about it.

Hidden content is great but if it's so hidden that you could never find it at all, and then it's scripted out of the game forever until you decide to redo the whole thing again, that's sorta crappy. Like, FFXII's Zodiac Spear bullshit. Or the hidden ATEs that you'd never know existed unless you bought the FFIX Strategy Guide to tell you. There's no discovery if you have no idea what you're trying to discover.

 

[Prism]

Now that's the key - the game should at least give you the smallest hint to get the player even curious about exploring secrets. If they don't even know they exist in any sense whatsoever, they wouldn't have the base curiosity needed to find the damn things. Finding them might account to blind luck rather than intentional exploration.

I think VII has a good amount of balance in that regard, but it's definitely more true in some areas over others. Secret characters are telegraphed pretty decently well, as well as some of the hidden bonus explorable things (like when using the submarine)
Other parts, not so much...

 

[ForceStealer]

The benefit and feelings of accomplishment and joy at "figuring something out by myself" are completely nullified and reversed into rage and frustration at the knowledge of losing out on some impossible to know of item/accessory/materia/event because there was nothing there to warn me or tell me to expect it ahead of time.

But if we're talking about a first playthrough, you wouldn't know you missed it

But XII's sidequest design sucks in general and I frequently complain about it, lol.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh you'd know. Gaps in the ability menu. Items missing. Etc. And even if you didn't know during the first playthrough, the knowledge of finding out you missed something afterwards is enough to give you at least a "D'oh!" moment. Pandora's Box and Dragon Zombies are a perfect example of this. Or better yet, Barret's Missing Score, and Vincent's unique dialogue on the Sister Ray with Hojo.

Realizing something's gone and you missed out having that being part of your experience sucks. Especially when you think you were thorough and find out what was hidden was completely obscured to the point it feels like the game designers were fucking with you. FFXII did that so much it almost felt antagonistic. They didn't want you to discover the best loot, weapons and items for some fucked up reason. Not only that, they also wanted to gate it behind random chance. They really made it a point to fight the player getting the best equipment in order to do some bizarre sort of personalization. And it didn't get better with the Zodiac Age! It's so bizarre.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

This is a ways off yet as I've still got a bunch of FF7 content to go through, but what FF game should I go to next?

I've heard a lot of good things about 8 and 9, as well as 6 (which I could probably emulate).

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you want an amazing retro experience, go for FFVI.

If you want to see more of the same era of FF RPGs like VII, go to VIII or FFX.

FFIX is a love letter to classic Final Fantasies with sizeable callbacks to them, so I think it's best to at least play VI and maybe IV before doing that one but it is one of my all time favorites. Like, it's seriously an amazing game and I love it to pieces. But it's very different, especially coming from VII.

And if you want to reject tradition and embrace modernity, play FFXIII and XV

 

[Deleted member 13557]

If you want an amazing retro experience, go for FFVI.

If you want to see more of the same era of FF RPGs like VII, go to VIII or FFX.

FFIX is a love letter to classic Final Fantasies with sizeable callbacks to them, so I think it's best to at least play VI and maybe IV before doing that one but it is one of my all time favorites. Like, it's seriously an amazing game and I love it to pieces. But it's very different, especially coming from VII.

I'm of the belief that earlier FF titles are medieval themed, so if IX is like that, I'm all in. I'm as much of a sucker for medieval themes as I am for cyberpunk (a la FF VII) and gothic horror themes.

And if you want to reject tradition and embrace modernity, play FFXIII and XV

I've heard very mixed things about XV.

Fun fact: Besides Maximilian Dood, one of my first vivid memories of FF exposure was one of the characters from FF XV being featured in Tekken 7 as DLC.

Did a quick Google search of XIII, definitely familiar with the protagonist.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh you'd know. Gaps in the ability menu. Items missing. Etc. And even if you didn't know during the first playthrough, the knowledge of finding out you missed something afterwards is enough to give you at least a "D'oh!" moment. Pandora's Box and Dragon Zombies are a perfect example of this. Or better yet, Barret's Missing Score, and Vincent's unique dialogue on the Sister Ray with Hojo.

You might just have a complex . I of course got the Missing Score because I had Barret, but in my original playthrough I didn't really change my party once I had settled on one, so if I had missed it that would have meant I didn't use Barret anyway. (That said, I do agree that that is an example of missable item that is meaningful in that it's an ultimate weapon and not a, well, Iron Bangle.) And when I'm playing through today, I do always make a point to get it and then run back down if I'm not using Barret, but I think that's just because it's hard to ignore once you DO have that knowledge, but in the moment, eh.
For example, have you ever actually used Pandora's Box in battle, and for a reason, not just to use it? lol. Although, again, I do understand the drive to get all the Enemy Skills, just not the desire to make sure to fill all 4. Why? You can only have three people in your party! lol

But yeah, fully agree on XII's sidequest design. Something that basically requires you to have the guide is, frankly, bad design and XII is packed with it. I know it's more likely is due to XII's troubled development, but it reeks of a cynical way to sell guides, and it annoys me, haha.

But speaking of FF7 party, @ThatGuyMikey what WAS your favored party by the end? Sorry if you said that already and I missed it. And as for FF games...yeah, VI-X is generally regarded as FF's golden era, so it's tough to go wrong in that stretch.

Besides Maximilian Dood, one of my first vivid memories of FF exposure was one of the characters from FF XV being featured in Tekken 7 as DLC.

Should've been Tifa *grumble*

 

[Deleted member 13557]

But speaking of FF7 party, @ThatGuyMikey what WAS your favored party by the end? Sorry if you said that already and I missed it. And as for FF games...yeah, VI-X is generally regarded as FF's golden era, so it's tough to go wrong in that stretch.

As boring as it sounds, I primary used Cloud, Tifa and Barret to keep the AVALANCHE theme going. Used Aerith a fair bit as well before... ya know.

I don't think I've mentioned this yet but I love how Tifa's limit breaks are essentially an ever evolving combo.

But for my current playthrough I'm ABSOLUTELY gonna be using Cid in my party. I just fell in love with his character and his backstory, but I never really used him outside of when he briefly becomes the team leader. Probably gonna use Vincent too.

 

[ForceStealer]

In my original playthrough. Cloud, Barret, and Cid was my party. I added Cid almost entirely because I saw one of his later limit breaks (Dragon Dive) on my friend's game and had to have it, haha. But yeah Tifa's limits are great

 

[Rankles]

This is a ways off yet as I've still got a bunch of FF7 content to go through, but what FF game should I go to next?

I've heard a lot of good things about 8 and 9, as well as 6 (which I could probably emulate).

You heard good things about 8?! Can’t say anything springs to mind... ?

 

[Ite]

Hey I love 8 lol. 9’s my all-time fave though, if it appeals to you at all I recommend not waiting. It’s a great follow up after 7 — a tone shift towards a light-hearted fairy tale direction, but the story and characters have the same depth and darkness that 6 and 7 do.

Cid, Vincent, and Cait Sith are my true FF7 backbenchers. Two of them because of their dangerous limit breaks, and I never gave a hoot what Cid had to say in scenes, even though he was pretty fun in combat.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

Okay, I mentioned this earlier but I've made some general FF7 notes on my phone to basically reaffirm my understanding of the story lol.
Here they are, feel free to correct any mistakes. This'll be a long one:

Cloud puts himself in Zack's shoes because he looked up to him as Zack succeeded to become a SOLDIER, but Cloud failed (he obviously stopped looking up to Sephiroth). A combination of the trauma gathered from the Nibelheim incident (seeing his hometown burn, seeing Zack die, his mother dying, being experimented on, etc) and not achieving his dream (therefore not "impressing" Tifa) led him to fabricate a story inspired by Zack which he believed wholeheartedly.

Sephiroth has influence over Jenova given how he was injected with its cells in utero, and because his will overpowered it. Therefore, he can control it at will from the Northern Crater / Cave and make it shapeshift as him to attack the party by dropping pieces of itself, leading to the Jenova battles bar Synthesis, which was a product of the reunion.

Jenova is able to dominate the will of anyone without a strong sense of self, I.e. Cloud and the cloaked Sephiroth clones. (Can't control genuine SOLDIERS because of their strong will?)

The reunion is essentially all of the Jenova cells reassembling after beings with Jenova cells die, I.e. other "Jenova" bosses and the numbered Sephiroth clones. Sephiroth controlled where the Jenova cells went because of his influence over Jenova, leading those will the Cells who don't have a strong will to the Whirlwind Maze, killing them, and retrieving their cells. This, and the cells from the defeated Jenova bosses, creates a being resembling the "true" Jenova (Synthesis).

Lifestream = spirit energy when it's returned to the planet, mako energy = compressed lifestream, compressed mako energy = materia.

Sephiroth is at the North Crater during the entire course of the game, recuperating after being thrown into the lifestream by Cloud. Every other time you see him "in person", it's actually Jenova, being controlled by Sephiroth and taking his form, voice, etc. (Was it also Jenova who levitated, pushed and pulled the entire party in front of the countered Holy?)

Jenova arrived to the planet via meteor, creating the Northern Crater. Jenova's sole purpose is to destroy planets, life and move on. Sephiroth wishes to follow in his "mothers" footsteps (wanting to take the planet "back"); hereditary genocide, essentially.

 

[Rose_of_Night]

One of us...one of us...

ONE OF.... dammit I'm late

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud puts himself in Zack's shoes because he looked up to him as Zack succeeded to become a SOLDIER, but Cloud failed (he obviously stopped looking up to Sephiroth). A combination of the trauma gathered from the Nibelheim incident (seeing his hometown burn, seeing Zack die, his mother dying, being experimented on, etc) and not achieving his dream (therefore not "impressing" Tifa) led him to fabricate a story inspired by Zack which he believed wholeheartedly.

That's partly right...

But not quite.

Spoiler: Details on Jenova Cells and Cloud

Cloud swapped his real personality and identity with a fake because of the most important ability Jenova carries.

Mimicry.

Jenova is a master shapeshifter able to psychically read the minds and emotions of its victims. Remember, this is what Aerith's mother discusses with Gast on those tapes in Icicle Inn. Jenova wiped out the Cetra by impersonating their friends, loved ones and the dead before spreading a terrible mutating virus.

Jenova was able to shapeshift into Sephiroth and impersonate Tifa to get the Black Materia. Remember what Sephiroth says in the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth
Cloud... Don't blame Tifa.
The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......
A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.

He's correct here.

Jenova is a powerful mimic. When Cloud was experimented on, Cloud was mako poisoned and the Jenova cells in his mind were in control of his consciousness. They mimicked Zack's memories, Tifa's memories, and Zack's placement within events to construct a false recollection and persona for Cloud to function. The persona is rooted in Cloud's idea of what a cool SOLDIER is and Zack himself. This is why Cloud couldn't remember who he was and why he was so influenced by Sephiroth. His true self was hidden and the persona constructed by Jenova cells were at the forefront of his consciousness.

Pay close attention to the Nibelheim flashback. Keep in mind who the grunt is and who Zack would be.

Jenova cells play a key role in how Cloud turned into who he is.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

Cloud swapped his real personality and identity with a fake because of the most important ability Jenova carries.

Mimicry.

By "fake" I presume you mean a personality that isn't his, and not one that doesn't exist whatsoever.

Jenova is a master shapeshifter able to psychically read the minds and emotions of its victims. Remember, this is what Aerith's mother discusses with Gast on those tapes in Icicle Inn. Jenova wiped out the Cetra by impersonating their friends, loved ones and the dead before spreading a terrible mutating virus.

I took this quite literally when I first played the game. I thought Ifalna was saying that Jenova looked like dead people lol.

Jenova was able to shapeshift into Sephiroth and impersonate Tifa to get the Black Materia.

Yeah, that scene baffled me. Especially after learning that Jenova was shapeshifting as Jenova. So Jenova shapeshifted as Sephiroth shapeshifted as Tifa? Don't know if this was the same scene but it somehow made the party disappear and reappear.

Jenova is a powerful mimic. When Cloud was experimented on, Cloud was mako poisoned and the Jenova cells in his mind were in control of his consciousness. They mimicked Zack's memories, Tifa's memories, and Zack's placement within events to construct a false recollection and persona for Cloud to function. The persona is rooted in Cloud's idea of what a cool SOLDIER is and Zack himself. This is why Cloud couldn't remember who he was and why he was so influenced by Sephiroth. His true self was hidden and the persona constructed by Jenova cells were at the forefront of his consciousness.

So Jenova is able to mimic everyone, regardless if a person has its cells or not. It also has access to everyone's memories? Or is that more on the part of mako, as it comes from the lifestream? I'd take it that having Jenova cells is a product of Shinra trying to make a Cetra to find the promised land (obviously failed) and trying to duplicate Sephiroth's power(?) as its cells had monumental effects on his strength. The failed "duplicates" (clones) are the cloaked, numbered guys. Cloud isn't a Sephiroth clone because he isn't numbered.

So Zack's memories and placement within the Nibelheim incident as well as Tifa's memories were accessible to Jenova, and found their way into his mind. That explains why he's so adamant about being EX-SOLDIER, he's of the strong belief that he was a member of SOLDIER because of the Jenova-inflicted memories, and believes that he left because of the Nibelheim incident, when in reality he can't remember leaving at all?

Him having Tifa's memories explains him seeing the death of Tifa's father and her stating that she hates Shinra, Mako reactors, SOLDIER, Sephiroth and the like in a flashback of sorts. But if he had Tifa's memories wouldn't he remember Zack? I guess him having both of their memories created some sort of dissonance, which along with his reality contributed to his fits.

I remember Cloud breaking down and stating that he doesn't even remember joining SOLDIER and he only really recounted the drive there (which he was in, but as a Shinra troop) feeling the heat of the flames (there were Shinra troops incapacitated on the ground, presumably who Cloud actually is) and him being unable to enter certain rooms because... Zack didn't enter them?

Pay close attention to the Nibelheim flashback. Keep in mind who the grunt is and who Zack would be.

I will do. I'm quickly approaching Kalm on my second playthrough now.
Cloud would be Zack, the guy on the left would be Cloud.

 

[Makoeyes987]

By "fake" I presume you mean a personality that isn't his, and not one that doesn't exist whatsoever.

Correct.

So Jenova shapeshifted as Sephiroth shapeshifted as Tifa? Don't know if this was the same scene but it somehow made the party disappear and reappear.

Yes, it shapeshifted twice. That is the scene you're thinking of.

So Jenova is able to mimic everyone, regardless if a person has its cells or not. It also has access to everyone's memories?

Sephiroth and Jenova can read anyone's mind, Jenova cells or not.

I'd take it that having Jenova cells is a product of Shinra trying to make a Cetra to find the promised land (obviously failed) and trying to duplicate Sephiroth's power(?) as its cells had monumental effects on his strength. The failed "duplicates" (clones) are the cloaked, numbered guys. Cloud isn't a Sephiroth clone because he isn't numbered.

It's a product of Hojo experimenting on people to test the Jenova Reunion Theory. Sephiroth was the product of trying to make a Cetra and they made a super soldier instead. SOLDIER's surgery to create superhumans was the byproduct of the Jenova Project. Cloud is a failed Sephiroth Copy thanks to not getting a number and getting away before he could become a black cloaked thrall to Sephiroth.

So Zack's memories and placement within the Nibelheim incident as well as Tifa's memories were accessible to Jenova, and found their way into his mind. That explains why he's so adamant about being EX-SOLDIER, he's of the strong belief that he was a member of SOLDIER because of the Jenova-inflicted memories, and believes that he left because of the Nibelheim incident, when in reality he can't remember leaving at all?

Correct.

Him having Tifa's memories explains him seeing the death of Tifa's father and her stating that she hates Shinra, Mako reactors, SOLDIER, Sephiroth and the like in a flashback of sorts. But if he had Tifa's memories wouldn't he remember Zack? I guess him having both of their memories created some sort of dissonance, which along with his reality contributed to his fits.

Well no. Cloud saw that himself, as himself. He just included it in his fake persona. He was there at the reactor. As the MP guarding Tifa from going inside.

I remember Cloud breaking down and stating that he doesn't even remember joining SOLDIER and he only really recounted the drive there (which he was in, but as a Shinra troop) feeling the heat of the flames (there were Shinra troops incapacitated on the ground, presumably who Cloud actually is) and him being unable to enter certain rooms because... Zack didn't enter them?

Correct.

I will do. I'm quickly approaching Kalm on my second playthrough now.
Cloud would be Zack, the guy on the left would be Cloud.

I believe so, yes.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

I'm getting there, slowly.

Probably sounds weird but when I really like a game I like to know that I have a strong understanding of it, which is why I've just been asking questions constantly.

Essentially, if I didn't like this game I wouldn't ask you to remind me what Jenova is every 5 minutes lmao.

To be fair on myself I've only been playing this game for like a week. I've beat it, sure, but sometimes by brain just doesn't compute.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

So uh, I just found something weird.

I'm currently doing my 2nd playthrough of FF7, just passed the sector 7 plate collapse.

I walked into the sector 5 church, and unless if I'm seeing things, Aerith pops up for like half a second. The girl with ponytails looks at her, and turns as she disappears.

Easter egg or glitch, I don't know. I'll come back after her death and see if it still happens.

 

[JBedford]

That is a glitch.

Random tip: During the Kalm flashback do not ask the innkeeper about the town.

 

[Deleted member 13557]

Biggs and Jessie in Elmyra flashback scene?

How did I miss all this lol

 

[Deleted member 13557]

That is a glitch.

Random tip: During the Kalm flashback do not ask the innkeeper about the town.

What does it do?

 

[JBedford]

The game has some problems with reuse of flags. There's an optional scene later in the game that uses the same flag as that unrelated dialogue, so if you ask the innkeeper about the town the game will think you've already witnessed that optional scene and you'll never get to see it.

 

[Tetsujin]

The game has some problems with reuse of flags. There's an optional scene later in the game that uses the same flag as that unrelated dialogue, so if you ask the innkeeper about the town the game will think you've already witnessed that optional scene and you'll never get to see it.

wait I have never heard of this

 

[Deleted member 13557]

I shall... not take the stairs!