FFVII Character Details, Easter Eggs, and General What-the-fuckery

[minimosey]

But if she did know, that makes her a huge bitch for not telling Zack's parents when they ask.

I think she did know Zack was dead, but that's just it: that's the only thing she does know. It's not like she told Elmyra a lot about her husband's death, just that his spirit had wanted to see her.

She wouldn't be able to tell Zack's parents where he died (except maybe approximately), how he died (on-duty? by accident? murder?), what he was doing for the past five years, if he was given proper rites... All of these are things a person might reasonably want to know about a loved one's death. Chances are good the circumstances surrounding Zack were among the "...many things" Aerith says she wants to learn when the party leaves Midgar.

She couldn't even have told them how she knows without sounding like a lunatic. Remember, Elmyra didn't believe Aerith when she told her, so why would Zack's parents? They were looking for news that their son was OK, not news of his death, and very likely would have balked at that. And Aerith would know that, because she knows how Elmyra reacted... and how she reacted herself. (Considering her hang-up about Zack in the game, if she did know about his death, she probably did NOT take it well at all when she heard.)

Even if she could convince them, there is no way to tell them about Zack's death and not raise other fears and insecurities, possibly even guilt (what was their son going through for five years that he never got word to them and died? why didn't they try harder to track him down?) short of lying about the circumstances. So... she doesn't. She may just be too upset to think straight about it, considering how she left the house. She may honestly believe that with how things stand, it's better for them to be able to think that Zack is a negligent son--but is doing OK--than deal with that. After all, when Cloud talks to her in Gongaga, she seems to be convincing herself that Zack disappeared taking off with another girl. Tifabelle, that quote you posted? Aerith's hoping he had the affair instead

Is she in denial about his death, or just not talking about it and trying to explain away his disappearance beforehand? Honestly, I see it as her being hurt over what she knows, uncertain over what she doesn't, and not wanting to spread either feeling around. But oh yes is there some unclear writing in the game with Aerith.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Whatever Aerith hears, or doesn't hear, when Zack dies - and CC suggests that she can hear something - it must be confused by the fact that Cloud is Zack's "living legacy" in a fairly literal sense. I always imagined that she wouldn't think Zack was dead because she could sense that he was in some way still alive. Then when Cloud falls into her church, the mystery deepens. Also, she was very young when she and Zack were dating, and she'd had five years to get over him. Yes, she wrote him those 88 letters, but she'd pretty much written him off by the last one. It was a letter to a friend, not a letter to a lover. Imagine you heard that your first serious boyfriend or girlfriend, who dumped you inexplicably and from whom you hadn't heard in years, had died. How cut up would you be? Aerith's love for Zack is not the most important thing about her, and not her defining quality as a character in the game.

 

[Tifabelle]

Whatever Aerith hears, or doesn't hear, when Zack dies - and CC suggests that she can hear something - it must be confused by the fact that Cloud is Zack's "living legacy" in a fairly literal sense. I always imagined that she wouldn't think Zack was dead because she could sense that he was in some way still alive.

Huh. Actually when that whole "her raising her head" thing happens, Zack is still alive, as it's just before Cloud crawls over to him. Right? Interesting.

It was a letter to a friend, not a letter to a lover.

How did you make that distinction?

Imagine you heard that your first serious boyfriend or girlfriend, who dumped you inexplicably and from whom you hadn't heard in years, had died. How cut up would you be?

He didn't dump her. He disappeared. So imagine your boyfriend going off on a mission, and never returning.

Aerith's love for Zack is not the most important thing about her, and not her defining quality as a character in the game.

It's most certainly not the most important thing about her, or her defining characteristic. But that doesn't make it any less significant.

 

[Masamune]

Whatever Aerith hears, or doesn't hear, when Zack dies - and CC suggests that she can hear something - it must be confused by the fact that Cloud is Zack's "living legacy"....

Gaaah. Am I the only one fed up of hearing those two words?

 

[ForceStealer]

lol, I dunno, what would you prefer it called? Because even without Zack's peptalk in CC, its basically what Cloud was. Literally - for awhile there. And I know said talk took away the sudden-ness and stark reality of his death and all, but I kinda liked that Zack, in being honorable, did more harm than good to Cloud's shattered mind.

@minimosey: I suppose. Though I still think just walking out when the parents say, "He wrote us saying he had a girlfriend, could that have been you?" was mean.

 

[Max Payne]

Gaaah. Am I the only one fed up of hearing those two words?

I'm sick of hearing all this bullshit. FF7 used to be gritty and dark. Fuck happened to that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I meant literally. He took on Zack's persona. That was in the OG.

 

[minimosey]

@minimosey: I suppose. Though I still think just walking out when the parents say, "He wrote us saying he had a girlfriend, could that have been you?" was mean.

Tifa does the same thing if she's in the party, though. It's not meant to be mean on either girl's part, they're just upset. I'd say the rudeness of the action was actually done intentionally to underline how upset they are, because even if Aerith is lacking in tact at times both girls are kind and tend to be polite with strangers. As long as either girl is in the party, Cloud will immediately notice something's wrong with them when they leave.

 

[Octo]

Gaaah. Am I the only one fed up of hearing those two words?

Yeah, my Grandad wanted me to be his "living legacy" and I was all like 'fuck you old man, I'm taking all your shit and war medals to Cash Converters, laters motherfucker!'

 

[Masamune]

lol, I dunno, what would you prefer it called? Because even without Zack's peptalk in CC, its basically what Cloud was.

But he wasn't.

Cloud wasn't given any Ho Yay speech about becoming Zack's 'living legacy', he simply took his sword and stumbled towards Midgar whilst piecing together his own reality from his memories/projections of Zack & Tifa.

 

[ForceStealer]

He still basically took on Zack's persona. At least his perception of it. That's what that term would mean if taken literally. My point was that Licorice's post isn't changed by saying "living legacy" or "took on Zack's persona."

 

[tibiquera]

Not sure how to embed an youtube video, but at the 6:35 mark, when Cloud is in the temple of the ancients and tries to access a room he says "Sealed...? That sound brings back memories". Do you guys know what that means?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isYw2WnJyU&feature=related

 

[Roger]

He still basically took on Zack's persona. At least his perception of it. That's what that term would mean if taken literally. My point was that Licorice's post isn't changed by saying "living legacy" or "took on Zack's persona."

I highly doubt if Cloud actually tried to act like how he saw, the only friend he ever had in his life, what would come out was beginning of FFVII Cloud. He took Zack's place in Zack's story about his life SOLDIER, cause he didn't have one himself. That's not the same as taking on his persona, much less becoming his legacy.

 

[ForceStealer]

Beginning of FF7 Cloud is an amalgam of what he saw of Zack, Sephiroth, and his own assumptions about how a SOLDIER should act. He definitely took on his perception of Zack's persona.

But even if he didn't, how is taking "Zack's place in Zack's story about his life in SOLDIER" not becoming his legacy? Its a very literal interpretation of the word, but I'd say it is. He's taken on Zack's experiences himself, causing them to live on.

 

[Roger]

Beginning of FF7 Cloud is an amalgam of what he saw of Zack, Sephiroth, and his own assumptions about how a SOLDIER should act. He definitely took on his perception of Zack's persona.

Either his perception of Zack is someone that doesn't care about Shinra, SOLDIER or the Planet or it wasn't him. I'm gonna go with option b.

But even if he didn't, how is taking "Zack's place in Zack's story about his life in SOLDIER" not becoming his legacy? Its a very literal interpretation of the word, but I'd say it is. He's taken on Zack's experiences himself, causing them to live on.

He used Zack's story to explain his background. That's not a legacy. It's called a con.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Myself, I prefer the term used in the subtitled version I watched. Instead of "Living Legacy" Cloud was dubbed "The proof that I once existed."

 

[Tifabelle]

I think that Zack appointing Cloud as his living legacy though is enough for him to be his living legacy. Whether or not Cloud was able to do so. Cloud also acknowledges this role at the end of AC when Zack reminds him.

So: Zack tells Cloud he's his living legacy. Cloud accepts the role. The exchange is enough to make it so. At least imo. Cloud doesn't have to act exactly like Zack to be his living legacy.

 

[Roger]

Don't get me wrong. Compilation's turn of events sure, I'm sure if we got a remake Cloud would prattle on about dreams, honour, blabla, put his head against the Buster Sword constantly and hitting on girls would no longer be optional. But as Masamune was saying it used to be. "My friend Zack told a story. I used that story" End of Zack's involvement in the matter.

 

[ForceStealer]

Either his perception of Zack is someone that doesn't care about Shinra, SOLDIER or the Planet or it wasn't him. I'm gonna go with option b.

The last time he saw Zack the man was killing Shinra soldiers, how much did Zack really care about SHinra at this point? We're also given no indication that Zack has ever given any thought to the Planet.

He used Zack's story to explain his background. That's not a legacy. It's called a con.

legacy - noun

-anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor

How does this not apply?


@Tifabelle - my point is that even without Crisis Core's additions to the scene, that doesn't make calling Cloud Zack's legacy is any less an apt term just because you may not like the new scene.

 

[Roger]

The last time he saw Zack the man was killing Shinra soldiers, how much did Zack really care about SHinra at this point? We're also given no indication that Zack has ever given any thought to the Planet.

By the time Cloud was doing any seeing around, Zack was long since pwned at the hands of the three Shinra soldiers that found them.

And we aren't given any reason to think he could care less if it ends either.

legacy - noun

-anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor

How does this not apply?


@Tifabelle - my point is that even without Crisis Core's additions to the scene, that doesn't make calling Cloud Zack's legacy is any less an apt term just because you may not like the new scene.

Then the story he told him is a legacy. Not Cloud's very being.

 

[ForceStealer]

What? Why are we splitting hairs on this? Your children are your legacy, they take your experiences through which you've taught them and their memories of you and carry it forward after you're gone. Cloud is doing the exact same thing in a sense even more literal than one's children would. (No, I'm not calling Zack Cloud's father, its an analogy.)

 

[Roger]

What? Why are we splitting hairs on this? Your children are your legacy, they take your experiences through which you've taught them and their memories of you and carry it forward after you're gone. Cloud is doing the exact same thing in a sense even more literal than one's children would. (No, I'm not calling Zack Cloud's father, its an analogy.)

Yeah and the analogy doesn't really work because Zack wasn't Cloud's father, mentor or whatevs, he was a friend who told a story.

then I heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true.
The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me.

Cloud is also Jenova's legacy and Sephiroth's, his own weaknesses, possibly born from his crappy childhood and any and all SOLDIER members he may have met and interacted with in his life. He's the legacy of what he had as an idea of what he would be like if were SOLDIER. Or rather he's the legacy of the experiences he has had over the course of his life, like everyone always is. So Cloud's a person. That met Zack. That's what Zack's living legacy basically means here. I'd say using the term legacy like this is making it a little meaningless.

 

[ForceStealer]

So...a child isn't a "person?" If any part of you takes influence from anywhere except ONE source, you're no longer their legacy?

We can drop this, I don't wanna pull it way off topic into a semantics argument, it just seems like an odd thing to plant your flag on.

 

[Roger]

So...a child isn't a "person?" If any part of you takes influence from anywhere except ONE source, you're no longer their legacy?

We can drop this, I don't wanna pull it way off topic into a semantics argument, it just seems like an odd thing to plant your flag on.

If you're talking about the father thing, then fathers and mothers have something else to do with their child's life beyond teaching them stuff.

And parents usually hope their child to have children of his/her own and to teach them the stuff they did. That's something I'd might use the word "legacy" to describe.

Zack telling Cloud a story because he had nothing else to do but talk to comatose guy for a year making Cloud Zack's living legacy in the same way as Zack passing on his honour, dreams, lifestory and sword to Cloud knowing he was going to die is, if you ask me, inaccurate even if "legacy" is just that broad a term.

 

[ForceStealer]

I guess I see what you're saying better now. But I still think you're putting too much emphasis on what Zack does being the determining factor rather than what effectively became. No, in the original version of the scene, Zack probably didn't see Cloud as becoming his legacy or anything whereas in the new one he did so formally. But Cloud still became kind of a bizarro Zack whether he wanted him to or not.

Spoiler: --UNPOPULAR OPINION FORTHCOMING-- (and specific CC spoilers)

Where Crisis Core's ending dropped the ball, imo, is Zack's out of body experience to jpop. The "speech," which keeps sounding more and more elaborate the more people complain about it, didn't have much to it.

For the both of us. You're gonna live. My dreams, my honor, they're yours now. *dead*

There were some pauses in there of course, but that was it. If the scene had more or less ended with Cloud's scream and walking off, I wouldn't have any real problem with it. I know what some dislike about it is that lack of "stark reality" or whatever you want to call it of Zack already being dead. But I'm fairly certain what Nojima was going for in Crisis Core was dramatic irony. Zack doesn't realize what his words are going to do Cloud's shattered mind, the audience does. And I can appreciate that.

I only say this because I feel like people shy away from using the term legacy simply because they don't want to lend credence to CC's version of events. But in terms of how Licorice worded her original post that started this, I don't think there's an appreciable difference.