FFVII Character Details, Easter Eggs, and General What-the-fuckery

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Okay, something weird. What in the world is the Key to Sector 7 doing burred in the dig site at Bone Village? It's not like someone could just accidentally lose it there under the ground. I mean, it's a dig site, so supposedly you're digging up the part of the dig site that hasn't been dug up yet by the archeologists, so how long has the Key to Sector 7 been there? Unless of course someone put it there on purpose...

I reckon it was Reeve, he's just the type of guy who would go somewhere like Bone Village to 'find himself', get stoned and drop the key. Its not impossible to re-bury something when theres piles of soil about.

wait.....
ENTER THE FFVII SCRIPT GURU...SHADEMP.

Actually, the NPC that stands outside of Sector *5* (not 7, despite the misleading number at the Slum Outskirts :P ) explains the origins of the key.

“That's funny…I dropped the key
to this gate…somewhere.
Must've been on that
excavation tour.”

Though yes it IS sorta weird that they have to dig for the key; the only explanation is that the excavators dug up a hole, the key fell in, then they filled that hole (which would be sorta...weird, yes) and had to dig again to find the key.

Fuck. I should really learn to read. I still like my idea better :sigh:
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
I gotta disagree with the whole idea of changing the scene to have him drop the sword, for a number of reasons.

1) Cloud giving up his sword would be an immediate clue to the entire party that Something is Fucked Up, if only because he's giving up his weapon when Sephiroth's near. If he had done that too soon it'd just make them look like idiots for not dogpiling him.

2) By the time Cloud really lets it slip that Something is Fucked Up everyone is too busy either trying to convince him to stop or getting the hell out of dodge to fuss over a sword they don't know the significance of. I would hope Tifa would prioritize getting out safely over dragging a heavy sword with her.

3) The sword has been fussed over enough already.

4) If you want to look at things in a Cloud + Zack - way, I'd say it's actually more touching that he clung to the hunk of metal in an underground current. Sephiroth broke him, yes, but he wasn't so broken that he gave up all attachments: he takes a moment apologizing to his teammates, and singles out Tifa to apologize for not being her Cloud. Having him give up the sword would send mixed signals and just be a really misplaced time to bring up Zack.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Am I the only one who dislikes all the significance heaped on the buster sword since the compilation started? I liked the idea that it was just a default piece of equipment given to Soldiers. I mean, how significant can it be when Cloud upgraded his weapons throughout FFVII and also those frigging monstrosities in AC: 'Behold! I press this button and my sword splits into bits and becomes slightly wider, it also triples in wind resistance!' :monster:

It cant really be that great a weapon, totally unwieldy...and only two materia slots! Pff!
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Well, you weren't allowed to sell it, so there was definitely SOME significance to it (just like not being able to sell the weapon Red gets after the scene with Seto...and for some reason Barret's gatling gun). Also, it's clearly not standard issue, Sephiroth doesn't use it, nor do any of the SOLDIERs you can encounter in the game.

Did they play it up? Sure. But it was always important and unique. :monster:
 
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Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Am I the only one who dislikes all the significance heaped on the buster sword since the compilation started? I liked the idea that it was just a default piece of equipment given to Soldiers. I mean, how significant can it be when Cloud upgraded his weapons throughout FFVII and also those frigging monstrosities in AC: 'Behold! I press this button and my sword splits into bits and becomes slightly wider, it also triples in wind resistance!' :monster:

It cant really be that great a weapon, totally unwieldy...and only two materia slots! Pff!

It was just a clunk of metal which Cloud took from the corpse of a dead comrade.

Now it's a legacy passed from one tragic warrior to another. I don't think subtlety is Nojima's forte.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
That's exactly what FFVII needs: moar CloudxZack fanservice.
*bangs head against wall* That's not what I meant... Goes off muttering about why fangirls have to go and turn friendships into parings when there is no canon support for it...
I gotta disagree with the whole idea of changing the scene to have him drop the sword, for a number of reasons.
I realized the symbolism of Cloud not dropping the Buster Sword after I posted, but since I like both ideas, I decided not to go back and change it.
1) Cloud giving up his sword would be an immediate clue to the entire party that Something is Fucked Up, if only because he's giving up his weapon when Sephiroth's near. If he had done that too soon it'd just make them look like idiots for not dogpiling him.
Shademp was talking about Cloud dropping the sword right before he give Sephiroth the Black Materia. They wouldn't have time to dogpile him.
2) By the time Cloud really lets it slip that Something is Fucked Up everyone is too busy either trying to convince him to stop or getting the hell out of dodge to fuss over a sword they don't know the significance of. I would hope Tifa would prioritize getting out safely over dragging a heavy sword with her.
The rest of AVALANCHE wouldn't have to know about the significance of the sword for the symbolism to work. The player would know though.
4) If you want to look at things in a Cloud + Zack - way, I'd say it's actually more touching that he clung to the hunk of metal in an underground current. Sephiroth broke him, yes, but he wasn't so broken that he gave up all attachments: he takes a moment apologizing to his teammates, and singles out Tifa to apologize for not being her Cloud. Having him give up the sword would send mixed signals and just be a really misplaced time to bring up Zack.
I realized this after I posted, but I still like Cloud not hanging on the Buster Sword as well. In the OG, it shows that even though Sephiroth's manipulating him, Cloud is still in his head somewhere. If Cloud dropped it, it would show exactly how much control Sephiroth has over him.
Now it's a legacy passed from one tragic warrior to another.
I don't know. That's not how I saw it. In CC, the Buster Sword represents Angeal's honor and pride; everything that made SOLDIER great. Then Angeal gives up his honor and pride and Zack becomes Angeal's living legacy and he now has the honor and pride. Cloud becomes Zack's living legacy and gets the Buster Sword as well. Even when Sephiroth is manipulating him, he still manages to hold on to his honor and pride. The Buster Sword = honor and pride symbolism carries very well into ACC as well. At the beginning of ACC, Cloud has no honor and pride and the Buster Sword is rusted. At the end, Cloud has regained his honor and pride and the Buster Sword is back to normal.

As to why you keep getting better and better swords in the game, I just put it up as a gameplay thing. I mean, why would Rufus Shinra give the ForceStealer, a double growth sword, to a trooper who uses a gun? I kind of ignore that the same way I ignore the ATB system.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
*bangs head against wall* That's not what I meant... Goes off muttering about why fangirls have to go and turn friendships into parings when there is no canon support for it...

The Compilation can't go five seconds without shoving Zack on the screen. He was just a plot device in the original game which explained Cloud's alter-ego. There's no need to keep overstating the fact.

I don't know. That's not how I saw it. In CC, the Buster Sword represents Angeal's honor and pride; everything that made SOLDIER great. Then Angeal gives up his honor and pride and Zack becomes Angeal's living legacy and he now has the honor and pride. Cloud becomes Zack's living legacy and gets the Buster Sword as well. Even when Sephiroth is manipulating him, he still manages to hold on to his honor and pride. The Buster Sword = honor and pride symbolism carries very well into ACC as well. At the beginning of ACC, Cloud has no honor and pride and the Buster Sword is rusted. At the end, Cloud has regained his honor and pride and the Buster Sword is back to normal.

You're not really disputing my point. The Buster Sword is still the nexus between these three warriors and their tragic destinies, passed along with all this 'living legacy' bollox because the writers were desperate to tie everything together. It reads like something from a bad fanfic.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Even when Sephiroth is manipulating him, he still manages to hold on to his honor and pride.

I don't recall the words 'honor' or 'pride' appearing in the FFVII script.

edit: Corneo refers to himself as having no 'pride'. Thoughts of Nanaki's mother fill him with 'pride'. Cloud says he was 'proud' when he first put on an MP uniform. Shinra is 'proud' of their ID scanning system. You fight a robot named Proud Clod. After the final battle, Cloud says they can all go home 'proud.'

Those examples are hardly evidence.
That is literally every mention of pride and associated words. Honor/Honour is flat-out never uttered. Bushido bullshit is nowhere to be seen. Trying to connect FFVII's actual story to the Compilation is a hopeless endeavor. Look, talk about CC and AC all you want but you just can't use FFVII as evidence.
 
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Character interpretations and Compilation themes aside, what I think would be important if there was a remake is for there to be clarity as to where Cloud hides his Buster Sword if the situation asks for it. ForceStealer and Ryu mentioned this issue in the "Let's Play FFVII" video; where does Cloud leave his Buster Sword when he enters Don Corneo's mansion to go rescue Tifa?
And in the example of Cloud carrying the Buster Sword all the way from the Northern Crater to Mideel, I would easily accept if it was explained that the sword simply stuck to the magnet on his back the whole way. I *can* go with the idea that he clinged to it with his hands the whole way but I would like it better if we knew that it had just stuck to his back all the time OR if he had left it behind earlier.

As for the symbolism and story-telling quality well various things can be extrapolated from a scene which does not necessarily need to be drawn from it. For example, if Cloud threw away the Buster Sword right before he handed over the Black Materia, some may consider this a betrayal of his character while others sees it as a perfect reflection of his state of mind where he at that point gives up everything "Cloud" was.

There is no need to involve Angeal's and Zack's relation to the Buster Sword in order to know that it is an important aspect of who Cloud is. In that scene in the Northern Crater he is thinking "I am not Cloud" so I would only consider it natural for him to throw away the sword and, for example, for Tifa to pick it up as a sign that even in this dark hour she will not give up on him one day coming back to retrieve it.
Knowing Square, they'd probably try to remind us of Zack in such a moment but what I suggest is a very casual and quick motion where he leaves the sword. Nothing reminiscent of DREAMS and HONOR or ZACKSU!

But meh, it doesn't really matter since even if there is a remake I won't be there to influence the storytelling. ;)

Edit: To beat you to it Masamune, YES it is fortunate that I won't influence a remake.
 
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minimosey

Pro Adventurer
I'd think a ditch of the Buster sword would be found confusing, as the sword was never made a big deal before, to Cloud or anyone else. Or people might think Sephiroth is just forcing him to disarm himself as a precaution against him doing something stupidly awesome at the last minute a la Nibelheim reactor.

...Though the second one would, sadly, be too smart for Sephiroth.

But the thing is, by that point, the sword is just not that big a deal by itself; it's simply another part of his SOLDIER ensemble. According to Yinza's script, his sword is only referenced twice... once in that Honeybee Inn roleplay of all things, and once when Hojo asks him what he's planning to do with his sword (you know, maybe chop Hojo up).

For something that the POV character does at that climactic, closely-paced moment to lack meaning unless you've experienced other entries (even though the game itself should be able to stand alone) or complete a later, optional sidequest (and then still lack impact because there is no reason to believe Zack had any significance in Cloud's mind then-- he wasn't remembered) just seems like...bad storytelling.

The rest of AVALANCHE wouldn't have to know about the significance of the sword for the symbolism to work. The player would know though.

What I meant was that if they have no idea what the significance of the sword is, they have no reason to stop and pick it up while they're busy worrying about what Cloud's doing or escaping the devastation of the crater, which starts as soon as Cloud's handed the black materia. Who would think of a sword when their eyes are glued to Cloud because he may or may not be about to hand over the end of the world? And then after that they have to run. Once Cloud hands over the materia, no one hesitates over him, not even Tifa, even though past experience could have told them Sephiroth would likely discard Cloud like a used tissue once he got what he wanted. Shock, horror, probably some betrayal, and simple survival of immediate threat to their lives are the dominant mindset. No one's going to think of a memento of Cloud; one week later, Tifa seems to still be processing his loss.

The sword is simply unimportant to them in face of what's happening. That's why AVALANCHE thinking to take it strikes as odd.

In the OG, it shows that even though Sephiroth's manipulating him, Cloud is still in his head somewhere. If Cloud dropped it, it would show exactly how much control Sephiroth has over him.
But this would contradict his apologies. Having his body levitated, spasming several times before he finally hands over the materia, apologizing to his teammates even as he betrays them... I think these all really emphasize how much control Sephiroth has already. It's also crueler in a way that Cloud is never completely mindless, but always aware of what he's doing, which fits in with Sephiroth's mindfuckery with him: he wants Cloud to suffer. He does not want a blank puppet that looks like Cloud. He wants Cloud writhing in the dirt, wishing he'd never raised a sword against Sephiroth. So really, I prefer it the way the game has it now: Cloud is in his head, suffering all the more for it.

Shademp said:
for example, for Tifa to pick it up as a sign that even in this dark hour she will not give up on him one day coming back to retrieve it.


  • Tifa shows increasing uncertainty in the illusory Nibelheim. Cloud first thinks to ask if Sephiroth is really telling the truth after Tifa turns away and gives no response to the taunt about showing everyone what's in her heart.
  • Cloud gives a whole mini-speech about how even if he's confused, he knows he's Tifa Cloud because she said "long time no see", and that it's her attitude that counts; she is only able to respond with doubt and a plea for more time.
  • When Cloud tells Tifa that he's not her Cloud, and maybe someday she will meet the real one, she is unable to protest or respond at all, instead falling to her knees.

This dark hour is directly tied to Tifa losing faith in Cloud, though she regains it later. Grabbing the sword as a sign of faith would be a major change in tone and bring in question why she didn't... you know, try encouraging him by saying she believed instead. Maybe it'd work as a sign of desperation, that she wants something to hold onto that badly, but we get back to her desperation being spent yelling at Cloud to stop before he hands over the Black materia and running for her life afterward and please, god, let the writers have her keep the sense to put her life over a memento that heavy.

Though it would be really nice to know what he did with that sword in Don Corneo's place.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
minimosey said:
According to Yinza's script, his sword is only referenced twice... once in that Honeybee Inn roleplay of all things, and once when Hojo asks him what he's planning to do with his sword

And the guys in Mideel identify Cloud by it. There's also a reason why Zack's character model always shows the sword on his back. The Compilation did inflate its importance, but you're also unnecessarily trivializing it.

I don't mean to ignore the rest your very well-written post there, I just don't really have an opinion either way about Shademp's scene suggestion. :monster: (and I'm at work)
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
The "by that point" earlier in the paragraph is why I didn't count the Mideel reference or Zack's character model (at that point Zack's appearance is pretty much Sephiroth's way of saying "you suck and this guy was the one doing everything you thought you were doing", so it just makes sense that he'd have the same sword; it'd be a jarring moment of "then how do you explain THIS?" otherwise).

Though you are right that the character model would (and did) tip players off that Cloud had somehow gotten the sword from Zack even without the optional flashback in the Nibelheim mansion... but that flashback is also what gives the brunt of Zack's personal significance to Cloud as they really were. So it's still iffy in my mind. Although you know what, I wouldn't be surprised if a remake made that flashback non-optional. It was kind of important anyway for explaining what the heck got Cloud to wandering near Midgar.
 
minimosey: I see your point, it may damage the tone to have Tifa bother with the sword. I won't dispute this.


But now my questions are raised. Where was the Buster Sword when Cloud was bound to the wheelchair? If it was in the doctor's house it would have fallen into the Lifestream. barret and the others must have taken it to the Highwind.
So many things like these that the designers and script writers never had to think about...
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
If it was in the doctor's house it would have fallen into the Lifestream. barret and the others must have taken it to the Highwind.
So many things like these that the designers and script writers never had to think about...

Yeah, I'd agree with Barret and the others taking it to the Highwind. Since Tifa is staying with Cloud at that point and investing pretty much all her hope in them, I could see someone--probably Cid, actually--taking it to the Highwind as a sympathetic show of encouragement for her: "Yeah, that moron's gonna need it again, we'll have it waiting for him."
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don't recall the words 'honor' or 'pride' appearing in the FFVII script.

edit: Corneo refers to himself as having no 'pride'. Thoughts of Nanaki's mother fill him with 'pride'. Cloud says he was 'proud' when he first put on an MP uniform. Shinra is 'proud' of their ID scanning system. You fight a robot named Proud Clod. After the final battle, Cloud says they can all go home 'proud.'

Those examples are hardly evidence. That is literally every mention of pride and associated words. Honor/Honour is flat-out never uttered. Bushido bullshit is nowhere to be seen. Trying to connect FFVII's actual story to the Compilation is a hopeless endeavor. Look, talk about CC and AC all you want but you just can't use FFVII as evidence.

I think you misunderstood. No one was using the original game as evidence for anything. Obsidian was just saying that an element of added significance may be felt by the player even without openly referencing it within the narrative.

A new bit of subtext that may be read into the scene by someone analyzing it, but not something that needs the characters to talk about it.

For something that the POV character does at that climactic, closely-paced moment to lack meaning unless you've experienced other entries (even though the game itself should be able to stand alone) or complete a later, optional sidequest (and then still lack impact because there is no reason to believe Zack had any significance in Cloud's mind then-- he wasn't remembered) just seems like...bad storytelling.

The sword remains to this day iconic of Cloud, though. Really, that alone gives it significance to the player, if only because the sword is part of the Cloud identity to the player.

It would work well enough so long as the act of dropping the sword wasn't made a dramatic, slow motion event in itself. If he just dropped it as he levitated toward Sephiroth with the Black Materia, it would be fine.

To those already in the know about its additional significance, it's then additionally significant. To anyone else, it represents Cloud giving up on himself or losing the will to fight.

Of course, it would also be another change to the original game's story, which they really need to avoid doing any more than they already have.

minimosey said:
What I meant was that if they have no idea what the significance of the sword is, they have no reason to stop and pick it up while they're busy worrying about what Cloud's doing or escaping the devastation of the crater, which starts as soon as Cloud's handed the black materia. Who would think of a sword when their eyes are glued to Cloud because he may or may not be about to hand over the end of the world?

...

Maybe it'd work as a sign of desperation, that she wants something to hold onto that badly, but we get back to her desperation being spent yelling at Cloud to stop before he hands over the Black materia and running for her life afterward and please, god, let the writers have her keep the sense to put her life over a memento that heavy.

I could see Tifa doing it, if only to have something to cling onto. It also wouldn't be unheard of within FF for a character like her to do it.

Celes ran back for Locke's bandana even as Kefka's Tower was coming down around the Returners.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I think you misunderstood. No one was using the original game as evidence for anything. Obsidian was just saying that an element of added significance may be felt by the player even without openly referencing it within the narrative.

Fair enough.

The debate is, nonetheless, about future alterations in FFVII to reflect this new "context". My perception of the argument was that it was downplaying the severity of the change. I disagree. It would be a huge change, bringing a completely different element into a script that otherwise did not have it.

Is it really that crazy to think that the sword stayed in its sheath? I know it's magnetic, but it's still a sheath. His boots stayed on.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Is it really that crazy to think that the sword stayed in its sheath?

Of course not. Actually, I'd like to see the Japanese form of this line about Cloud holding onto the sword when he washed up at Mideel to see if it says he was actually grasping it or if he was just carrying it.

I'm going to go look for it real quick.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Okay, it says he was actually holding onto it. Here's the line in Japanese: "どでかい長剣、握りしめて……"
 
Can someone bring up a new character detail/easter egg/what-the-fuckery, because I think the Buster Sword discussion has reached its end. :monster:

.........I'm too exhausted to come up with anything new I'm afraid.
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
Okay. Something I thought up DURING the Buster Sword discussion (I hope this counts?):

I always figured Barret thinking of Cloud as possibly being "Sephiroth's shadow" was just to highlight that Tifa will fight harder for Cloud--and I'm sure that actually IS a big part of it, Barret says something along those lines after the Lifestream sequence ("Awright, I know... I shouldn't have doubted him. But I can't win against you. You're some kinda lady.") But it always seemed really cold to me too, since Barret has been with Cloud from the beginning of the game too, saying something like "Hey, do I even want him to come back?" after telling Cloud he'd be there to knock him back to sense.

During the discussion I started thinking about it again and I realized that Barret had already had a friend come back and still lost him to madness: Dyne. Even had that whole fight with him. Seeing a second friend go crazy shortly afterward in the way Cloud did... thinking about it makes me feel so bad for him. :( No wonder he didn't want Cloud coming back.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Indeed, but even without that, Cloud nearly bisected Aerith if it weren't for Barret (/other teammates). He was THE reason Meteor was hovering over the Planet, things only got worse when Cloud and Sephiroth were near one another. It was a reasonable wish to try and take out Sephiroth without Cloud as such an unknown quantity.

Now, that is the exact opposite of what Barret told Cloud after the Temple of the Ancients, "If it happens it happens, don't worry 'bout it." But things were significantly more serious at this point.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
The trail of blood. It only goes from Jenova's tube to the president. As "Sephiroth" freed Cloud, shouldn't part of the trail go from the tube to the prison cell door?
 
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