FFVII from a newcomers perspective

[Eerie]

Shippers are annoying though, and weird.

Well, thanks

 

[KindOfBlue]

It's just that I think it will impair the impact of later parts of the story, it's like drinking, we're stealing happiness from tomorrow, I don't think it's a good long term solution XD

Obviously the solution is drink even MORE! kidding of course, but they seem to be at least saving shirtless tentacle Sephiroth destroying the solar system for the end, so “there are higher heights to which you and I can still soar” I suppose

For me I found OG Cloud a bit dull, upstaged throughout by the others. Remake has made him so much better.

I guess that’s partly a consequence of the RPG protagonist being a bit of a blank slate and partly because Cloud’s personality is being suppressed story-wise so instead of making us wait years for Cloud to act like a normal person, they were smart to sprinkle in some of those character moments throughout the remake

I found Aerith the more viable romantic option, but both come with a lot of baggage.

Shippers are annoying though, and weird.

I think in the end what matters is whether or not the couple is able to overcome that baggage, though I never saw that as a statement on whether or not a couple is “better” or “meant to be” or whatever...sometimes life just happens, and I’m glad the story isn’t as shipper-heavy as some people led me to believe it was

 

[Odysseus]

I just get annoyed that sometimes shipping is all anyone seems to care about. That's hardly limited to FF7, it's a pretty widespread problem in fandom overall. Just look at what happened to Sherlock a few years ago lol. I enjoy digging into the meat of a work's story and themes, so it can be kind of sad that so many people only want this surface level drama. I guess that's the internet for you

 

[Shademp]

I just get annoyed that sometimes shipping is all anyone seems to care about. That's hardly limited to FF7, it's a pretty widespread problem in fandom overall. Just look at what happened to Sherlock a few years ago lol. I enjoy digging into the meat of a work's story and themes, so it can be kind of sad that so many people only want this surface level drama. I guess that's the internet for you

I am reminded of a passage from the Douglas Adams book "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish" that I read 15 years ago.

“This Arthur Dent," comes the cry from the furthest reaches of the galaxy, and has even now been found inscribed on a mysterious deep space probe thought to originate from an alien galaxy at a distance too hideous to contemplate, "what is he, man or mouse? Is he interested in nothing more than tea and the wider issues of life? Has he no spirit? Has he no passion? Does he not, to put it in a nutshell, fuck?”​

True, the book ends up being more of a romance so this out-of-the-blue question eventually becomes topical, but in my headcanon this short passage is a cry in frustration over letters from fans who might have written in any number of ways "Does Arthur Dent fuck?" and "Who does Arthur Dent fuck" and "This is who Arthur Dent should fuck".

 

[Odysseus]

I am reminded of a passage from the Douglas Adams book "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish" that I read 15 years ago.

“This Arthur Dent," comes the cry from the furthest reaches of the galaxy, and has even now been found inscribed on a mysterious deep space probe thought to originate from an alien galaxy at a distance too hideous to contemplate, "what is he, man or mouse? Is he interested in nothing more than tea and the wider issues of life? Has he no spirit? Has he no passion? Does he not, to put it in a nutshell, fuck?”​

True, the book ends up being more of a romance so this out-of-the-blue question eventually becomes topical, but in my headcanon this short passage is a cry in frustration over letters from fans who might have written in any number of ways "Does Arthur Dent fuck?" and "Who does Arthur Dent fuck" and "This is who Arthur Dent should fuck".

Oh man, I can only imagine how much worse this was for authors when they would get these sorts of questions as actual mailed in letters. Imagine having to throw out so many "ARTHUR SHOULD FUCK THIS PERSON" letters every week lol. At least now it's all online.

 

[Fiz]

Well, thanks

Sorry

I guess that’s partly a consequence of the RPG protagonist being a bit of a blank slate and partly because Cloud’s personality is being suppressed story-wise so instead of making us wait years for Cloud to act like a normal person, they were smart to sprinkle in some of those character moments throughout the remake

Maybe.

I think in the end what matters is whether or not the couple is able to overcome that baggage, though I never saw that as a statement on whether or not a couple is “better” or “meant to be” or whatever...sometimes life just happens, and I’m glad the story isn’t as shipper-heavy as some people led me to believe it was

True, I just considered them both "not meant to be" when I first played OG and thought that was the intention.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I just get annoyed that sometimes shipping is all anyone seems to care about. That's hardly limited to FF7, it's a pretty widespread problem in fandom overall.

I’ve been aware of the love triangle for years before I ever became part of this fanbase, so building off of my assumption that Cloud is just a typical moody protagonist who everybody wants to bang (not that he isn’t, but at least he has substance), I also assumed Aerith and Tifa were just boring waifu bait constantly fighting over Cloud.

As a newcomer myself, my assumptions being wrong was a very refreshing experience for me. It’s weird because I’ve been a fan for, what, 8 months now? At the risk of sounding pretentious, sometimes I wonder if I understand the characters better than some of these shippers who’ve been fans for years.

And I think the fact that the romance actually does add weight to the story further amplifies the obsessions of...certain individuals who are prone to self-insert into the relationships. Which isn’t a bad thing in itself, but it’s unfortunate how reductive people can be when they paint the story and characters as if romance is all that matters.

 

[Odysseus]

As a newcomer myself, my assumptions being wrong was a very refreshing experience for me. It’s weird because I’ve been a fan for, what, 8 months now? At the risk of sounding pretentious, sometimes I wonder if I understand the characters better than some of these shippers who’ve been fans for years.

Being newer means you don't have as many preconceived biases as older fans might. The shipping game goes all the way back to when all we had was a mediocre translation of the original game and a lot of imagination to fill in the blanks. People hold on to those feelings and ideas, and let it affect their reading of the work. People tend to find fanfiction at a very formative time in their lives, and that also colors their perception of things. That's how in some cases you end up with "fandom" versions of characters and "real" versions of the characters. Tifa is stereotyped as a jealous slut by her detractors, and Aerith as a jealous spiteful ditz by hers.

So no, I don't think you're being pretentious.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Tifa is stereotyped as a jealous slut by her detractors, and Aerith as a jealous spiteful ditz by hers.

So no, I don't think you're being pretentious.

Yeah, after beating the OG, I went on a big FF7 binge just absorbing everything from the compilation to interviews and the like (quarantine could not come at a more “perfect” time). I assumed Cloud was a blank slate who was largely molded by the player as many would claim, but I feel it’s pretty hard to argue that in the face of what the devs have actually stated about him.

As for the girls, I expected Aerith to be the boring perfect dream girl who the otherwise hardened Cloud spends the rest of his life pining over due to her being the only person to make him feel something, and Tifa’s just the jealous side piece with nothing else going for her besides her body (and sad to say, some people actually believe this).

Since everybody hypes up Aerith’s death, I wasn’t shocked by it though it was still a sad moment. There just wasn’t much that resonated with me in terms of what her death means for her relationship with Cloud because they didn’t get to go very far anyways. What I didn’t know going in was her connection to the planet, which I felt made her death far more profound than just “aw, Cloud can’t bang the flower girl.”

People talk so much about Aerith’s death that it almost overshadows the actual twist of the story, the Lifestream scene. But I see it as a blessing in disguise since I wasn’t spoiled on the Lifestream scene before I played the OG, and it’s easily my favorite scene out of everything FF7 related. I knew about Zack being a dead friend of Cloud’s, but I didn’t know about Cloud’s identity crisis at all or about him and Tifa’s backstories and prior feelings for each other. Suffice to say, that was the moment FF7 became my favorite game I ever played and I’m glad I could discuss it with people who just get it.

 

[Odysseus]

This is why I stay off twitter lol. I'm glad you can appreciate the game for what it actually is.

 

[looneymoon]

Oh man, I can only imagine how much worse this was for authors when they would get these sorts of questions as actual mailed in letters. Imagine having to throw out so many "ARTHUR SHOULD FUCK THIS PERSON" letters every week lol. At least now it's all online.

If I remember correctly, this was partly why Louisa May Alcott ended Little Women the way she did?

 

[HylianMogget]

people recognize Cloud from Kingdom Hearts or Super Smash Bros

The fact that Cloud can be "that character from Smash Bros" to some people nowadays, if that was the first series they played with him in it, will never not be weird/amusing to me. 14-year-old me would be absolutely freaking out if you went back in time and said Cloud would be in Smash. Cloud in Smash Bros was an absurd, impossible dream back in the Melee days.

As for the extreme graphical leap and (in retrospect, short) gap between FFVII and AC that's been brought up earlier in the thread - yeah, the remake got me thinking about that, too. In some respects, I think AC kind of somewhat lessened the novelty of seeing a modern FFVII in that the general HD "look" of the main characters has been around since the mid-2000s. Like, I think they look the best they've ever looked in FFVIIR (and the designs are closer to the OG), but for the main cast the "what's ____ going to look like?" hype isn't really there as much as if we went from FFVII (1997) to FFVIIR with nothing in between. Seeing the environments and non-main characters has been more exciting, IMO.

 

[Odysseus]

The fact that Cloud can be "that character from Smash Bros" to some people nowadays, if that was the first series they played with him in it, will never not be weird/amusing to me. 14-year-old me would be absolutely freaking out if you went back in time and said Cloud would be in Smash. Cloud in Smash Bros was an absurd, impossible dream back in the Melee days.

I feel like Ness will always be the king of "that guy from smash bros," but it is pretty amusing that Cloud is probably only known for smash by a lot of people now lol. Don't gotta settle for Erghiez anymore.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The fact that Cloud can be "that character from Smash Bros" to some people nowadays, if that was the first series they played with him in it, will never not be weird/amusing to me.

I remember some of my friends being really into Kingdom Hearts back in middle school, so I think that was probably where I first learned about Cloud. I also had a friend who was really into Crisis Core and he would tell me stuff about it, all I remembered was Zack dying and him being friends with Cloud.

When Dissidia came out on PSP, I played the hell out of the demo which featured Cloud and Sephiroth. Didn’t know anything about them, just thought they were cool-looking. I also played a lot of Kingdom Hearts re:coded on DS which featured Cloud, but still knew practically nothing about him.

Because I enjoyed the Dissidia demo so much, I bought Dissidia Duodecim (my first FF game that I owned) and that was my first proper introduction to Cloud, Tifa, Sephiroth and a bunch of other FF characters who’s games I haven’t played. I was familiar with Cloud and Sephiroth already so I played them a lot, and Tifa was hot as hell so of course I played her a lot too . Didn’t pay attention to the story, but I really enjoyed the gameplay.

Occasionally I’d read up online about these characters just to get an idea about their backstories, which is how I learned of Aerith and the love triangle. Somehow I avoided being spoiled about Cloud’s identity, but there just wasn’t really much that attracted me to FF7 at that point. Weird, because I can’t even remember why I got into FF7 in the first place and now it’s strange to think of a time where it wasn’t my favorite game, even though it hasn’t even been that long.

 

[looneymoon]

I bought Erghiez for the FF7 characters and good good god that game is terrible lmao.

Dissidia and Duodecim were both genuinely enjoyable. I really didn't care for NT at all, what little I played of it. I hope the first 2 get ported at some point.

 

[ForceStealer]

NT feelslike it would have been a blast with a very dedicated group of three to play together. Outside of that incredibly specific scenario...yeah, Duodecim was miles better

 

[Odysseus]

I still want to get Erghiez just for the novelty of it, but I never had any expectation of it being any good. Haven't played Dissidia yet, since my PSP broke and I never got around to replacing it. ~Some day~

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Ehrgeiz" isn't great (or even good), but damn if I didn't have a lot of fun with it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Double posting, but it's for a good cause:

I suppose it's only natural that I have such fond memories of "Ehrgeiz" considering how much I love its sequel, "Fall Guys."

 

[Keveh Kins]

I remember seeing screencaps of Ehrgeiz in a Playstation magazine wayyy back when and I absolutely went mad trying to find it in my little rural nook of Ireland.

I ended up not playing it until I managed to emulate it as a teen. It was a bit shite, but I was very chuffed to be playing a Final Fantasy fighter.

 

[Odysseus]

"Ehrgeiz" isn't great (or even good), but damn if I didn't have a lot of fun with it.

and damn if it isn't hard to spell

 

[ForceStealer]

A friend of my had a demo disc with it on it which was my experience with it until emulating it in college. The demo still had Cloud, Tifa, and Sephiroth, though

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, after beating the OG, I went on a big FF7 binge just absorbing everything from the compilation to interviews and the like (quarantine could not come at a more “perfect” time). I assumed Cloud was a blank slate who was largely molded by the player as many would claim, but I feel it’s pretty hard to argue that in the face of what the devs have actually stated about him.

As for the girls, I expected Aerith to be the boring perfect dream girl who the otherwise hardened Cloud spends the rest of his life pining over due to her being the only person to make him feel something, and Tifa’s just the jealous side piece with nothing else going for her besides her body (and sad to say, some people actually believe this).

Since everybody hypes up Aerith’s death, I wasn’t shocked by it though it was still a sad moment. There just wasn’t much that resonated with me in terms of what her death means for her relationship with Cloud because they didn’t get to go very far anyways. What I didn’t know going in was her connection to the planet, which I felt made her death far more profound than just “aw, Cloud can’t bang the flower girl.”

People talk so much about Aerith’s death that it almost overshadows the actual twist of the story, the Lifestream scene. But I see it as a blessing in disguise since I wasn’t spoiled on the Lifestream scene before I played the OG, and it’s easily my favorite scene out of everything FF7 related. I knew about Zack being a dead friend of Cloud’s, but I didn’t know about Cloud’s identity crisis at all or about him and Tifa’s backstories and prior feelings for each other. Suffice to say, that was the moment FF7 became my favorite game I ever played and I’m glad I could discuss it with people who just get it.

The lifestream sequence is also my favorite part, I've never quite understood why Aeriths' death gets all the attention when the Nibleheim twist and the lifestream sequence are so much more interesting imo.

I agree that being new doesn't stop you from understanding the character better. Not only does it help that you have a fresh blank slate, but it also helps that you're older than the average fan probably was in 1997.
Let's be honest, the reason a lot of people thought Cloud was spending his life pining over his dream girl had less to do with the material ever implying that, and more to do with us being raised on a slew of disney movies.


The fact that themes of PTSD, of fear of failure, and guilt over being alive/happy went over my head when I was 12 doesn't quite surprise me, what does surprise me is that a lot of adults still think the same now because they've simply internalized their initial interpretation and don't want to let it go.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The fact that themes of PTSD, of fear of failure, and guilt over being alive/happy went over my head when I was 12 doesn't quite surprise me

And it’s this exact thing that I appreciate the most about FF7, Cloud’s personal journey. It’s far more interesting to me than shipping and as much as I love ranting about it, I think the romance itself fits the story quite nicely. It’s the shippers themselves who annoy me the most lol.

Anyways, Cloud’s growth was something I did not expect and I’m glad I wasn’t spoiled aside from Aerith’s death. I saw so many people describe Cloud as this tragic edgy romantic that it turned me off to him for years. Maybe that’s the root of my hatred for shippers lmao...I would’ve gotten into FF7 sooner if not for them

I didn’t have a PS1 growing up, but ultimately it’s probably a good thing that I didn’t grow up with this game not just because I wouldn’t have caught all the deeper themes as a kid anyways, but because the wait for the remake would feel even longer than it already does!

 

[BoxFBall]

I played the Remake before I played the original and I absolutely love this game. The characters are all very well written and designed and they are the best part of the game, because the story itself while it is good and well written for the most part, is pretty cookie cutter for the genre once you know the plot twists. The characters drive this game because they are all so well written and designed and their interactions with each other are great.

The original is a great game, but I can see how flawed it was as well and I won't hold it against them I know there were technological limitations and time constraints because I have read interviews where they have said they had to cut a lot of content out the game. A lot of fans of the original complain about the pacing of the remake and that is one of my two big issues with the OG is the pacing, the OG game moves waaaay too fast it almost feels too rushed at times. I like the fact the remake is taking it's time because the story is presented in a much better fashion and I am able to sink myself into it much more. Like playing the remake first and going back to the original I see why nobody ever talks about Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge or Midgar for that matter, you basically run through Midgar at a full sprint in the original and never spend enough time there to care about the city or the other minor characters. I actually felt something when Wedge, Biggs, and Jessie died in the remake, in the original game it kind of felt like who cares because they had so little screen time and interactions with Cloud.

Barrett is awesome and he reminds me of me and the men in my family(we're all over 6ft tall and big also we love to fight cause we all used to box and we talk a lot of shit so Barrett in many ways is my spirit animal, not to mention I love they included a black character in a JRPG I can relate to that doesn't come off like a circus act). He isn't my favorite character though(that would be Tifa, followed by Aerith and Barrett).

Cloud is actually my least favorite character in the game, even if I can admit he is the best written and most fully developed and fleshed out character(Tifa is the most well rounded which is probably why I like her so much she reminds me a lot of the women in my family). His personality comes off like he is a waste of a man, and I still maintain I feel like both of these girls can do much better than him, hell Aerith already did have better. Going from Zack to Cloud is like going from playing a PS5 to a PS3, there are similarities(mainly out of Cloud's mental control) but overall Cloud is a massive downgrade from Zach. Cloud is a textbook example of someone who doesn't know how to socialize and make friends properly and wants to blame everyone else for him coming off like a borderline sociopath.

As far as the love triangle is concerned playing the remake first I have to agree with OPs friend in that I don't really see anything romantic between Cloud and Aerith, Cloud comes off visibly annoyed in a lot of his interactions with her, hell if he liked her so much why did she have to remind him who she was when he fell through the roof of the church? Also Cloud only ever openly flirted with Tifa(giving her the flower and calling her beautiful over a drink at the bar) so as far as I can see as far as the remake is concerned I think it's clearly obvious Tifa is the one being pushed as a potential love interest. Aerith and Jessie flirted with Cloud, not the other way around, and he never reciprocated it. In the original game I can see why it is a love triangle because the game gives you the choice of dialogue between the two women, but in the remake naaaaah I don't see it any other way but Cloud eventually ending up in Tifa's guts if those two dorks would ever stop being sexually repressed losers and just speak the fuck up and admit they love each other since it is clearly obvious to everyone, including Aerith, they love each other.

Overall I can't wait for the rest of this to come out and I am definitely a big fan of this game and I see why it gets so much love.