SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We all know this image now

You can walk along the catwalk to the left and look past the wreckage of Sector 7 at what ought to be - and presumably is - Sector 6. And you know what ought to be centre stage of the Sector 6 slums? The bright neon lights of Wall Market. But it's not there. From up here, the Sector Six slums comprise what look like warehouses and fuel storage units.

I don't know why this, and the skybox problem, and some other issues, were allowed to happen. They didn't think it mattered? They ran out of time? I went back to Aerith's house and was really disappointed to see the lack of personality in her bedroom. The photographs were all of flowers and it was the same few images used over and over again, both in her room and in the spare room. I don't expect the same lavish attention to detail that was so lovingly given to the backgrounds in the OG, but I did think they might have spent a little time and effort turning Aerith's bedroom into a place that was more obviously Aerith's bedroom. You don't have to know her long to realise she's a girl who sets her stamp on things.

I am really sad that I have not been able to go into people's houses and rob old women of their last ethers.

By the way, what is this thing the party are climbing on?

I feel like SE missed a HUGE trick in this section. Sector 7 was a residential district. These broken buildings should be people's homes. We should be seeing wallpaper, furniture, clothing, books, children's toys, family photographs... Crockery and TVs and teddy bears and bedsheets should be strewn around, all the detritus of daily life that becomes so unbearably poignant when the comfortably mundane is ripped apart by an atrocity.

Instead, Sector 7 in collapse looks like the ruins of unoccupied, undecorated office buildings, or multi-story car parks.

Oh well, they probably didn't miss a trick. Probably it was deliberate. Part of toning down the horror which in the OG was left to our imagination, and which this "hyper-realistic" remake isn't allowed to show us.

 

[Theozilla]

I mean the Remake is already pretty detailed in the amount of different unique things they are rendering. (it’s definitely more detailed in the amount of things shown than even the pre-rendered backgrounds of the OG showed)
I think it’s understandable that the rendering for the debris is somewhat generic, especially since they are traversing the area closer to the Shinra building, even with the residential district there was still plenty of other tall and machinery buildings on Sector 7 plate.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, actually, I don't think it is understandable. It's a choice that they made, but the consequence is that the player is left with the reassurance that nobody lived there - and if nobody lived there, nobody died there, which is a point the game has now made three times: once when everybody you know from Sector 7 turns up alive and well after the Platefall; once when Don Corneo says Shinra wanted a huge death rate from the plate drop and are furious that, thanks to him, Avalanche was able to arrange an evacuation; and again when we don't see a single ruined building that looks like anybody lived in it. Aside from the odd car here and there there is nothing anywhere in the wreckage to suggest that these were people's homes.

If the OG had decide to give us a pre-rendered background of the same kind of wreckage (instead of the tangle of pipes we got) you can absolute bet they would have have shown us cross sections of apartment buildings with beds and kitchens and bathrooms and rolls of toilet paper.... The attention to detail in the OG felt homely and personal. In the Remake the attention to detail feels almost impersonal.

 

[Theozilla]

It's understandable, but boring. It's basically saying, don't worry, nobody lived here.

I don’t think that’s what’s it’s trying to say at all, I think it’s more development resources and time are limited and the degree of detail that can depicted is limited. Like the survivors at the beginning of the chapter definitely indicated to me that people lived on the plate.
And residential housing ruins are shown during Chapter 15. They just aren’t explorable, since the point of Chapter 15 is the climb up to the top.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I reworded my comment, sorry.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah there are more survivors in the Remake, but it’s still painfully obvious from the huge amount of NPC reactions and dialogue that plenty of people still died. Maybe it’s because I played the OG as an adult but I don’t think the OG is anymore passionate to detail than the Remake is. The OG just simply leaves more to the player’s imagination because of its visual fidelity being lower overall than the Remake’s.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think one is lower than the other. They are fundamentally different. But given that the Remake chooses a visual style designed to leave very little to the player's imagination, they need to deliver on that premise when it counts, like in the ruins of Sector 7. I didn't find the NPC interactions painful at all; they contradicted the visuals and my "own" experience (as Cloud) of everybody i knew personally having survived. But like I said, the clincher for me was Corneo's statement that Shinra's super-pissed the body count is so low.

 

[Theozilla]

I don't think one is lower than the other. They are fundamentally different. But given that the Remake chooses a visual style designed to leave very little to the player's imagination, they need to deliver on that premise when it counts, like in the ruins of Sector 7. I didn't find the NPC interactions painful at all; they contradicted the visuals and my "own" experience (as Cloud) of everybody i knew personally having survived. But like I said, the clincher for me was Corneo's statement that Shinra's super-pissed the body count is so low.

I don't mean "lower" as a qualitative statement, I mean "lower" in terms of the amount detail capable of being shown. Like what Scott McCloud discusses in "Understanding Comics"


And I'm sorry that the Remake didn't succeed in this aspect for you (and even with Don Corneo just because the causality rate wasn't as high as Shinra originally intended, doesn't mean it wasn't high, thousands if not tens of thousands of people still got killed).
For me, the Remake was far more effective and emotive than the OG was in showing the impact of the plate collapse, particularly with how much time the aftermath was expanded and explored.

 

[oty]

I think the Remake tried to focus on another aspect of the Platefall. It's completely true: in this version, the death isnt as much pictured. You dont truly feel like a lot of people died. But on the other hand, what you do feel, was that this was an event of unprecedented scale, and that people's lives, because a lot of them are alive, is forever changed, possibly ruined. Home is a big theme overall for this game. And the Platefall doesnt really feel like a tragic, murderous incident. But it does feel like a loss of a home. Like there is no where back for these people, the residents that the game didnt kill, to go back to. Atleast not to the way it was before.

I think it's hard to compare with the OG because it is very much reliant on the person's imagination. It always felt very tragic, but atleast to me, it was a demonstration of Shinra's capacity of evil, not really something that you mourn. You dont spend a lot of time in the Sector 7 Slums, none at all at the Plate, and the only NPCs that you kind of form a connection, is the trio. And I do say kind of because I know a lot of people that didnt connect at all with the trio in the OG.

I do wish that the Remake could have been more graphical, but then again, it depends a lot on the person. Some people people think it's a plus, since it's mostly absent from the OG.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It was much, much less so for me. It's probably the biggest disappointment of the Remake as far as I'm concerned, that and absolving Avalanche of any objective guilt in the Reactor bombings.

Despite the remake being chock-full of visual detail, it's lower in distinct personality for me than the OG was. Wall Market was a high point, of course. The sterile environment of Chapter 15 is a low one.

It's not even a disaster of unprecedented scale. It's the Sector 6 platefall all over again. One of the NPCs actually says that. I didn't get the impression people's lives were changed and ruined forever. They're going to rebuild; they have Corneo's stash to pay for it. They can start over. They're grounders, they pull together and look after each other.

One of the most horrific aspects of the plate drop in the OG is the indifference of the people in the next sector over. Those who react are mostly thinking of themselves or of what they can salvage. It's every man for himself in those Midgar slums.

And there's this, a newscast from the OG:
"This just in. An accident today...
...the worst in the history of the metropolis. But thanks to the quick response by those in charge, there were no civilian casualties.
The cause of the accident is unclear at this time, however, according to some sources it is believed to have something to do with the terrorist activities of the group, AVALANCHE."

 

[Theozilla]

It was much, much less so for me. It's probably the biggest disappointment of the Remake as far as I'm concerned, that and absolving Avalanche of any objective guilt in the Reactor bombings.

Despite the remake being chock-full of visual detail, it's lower in distinct personality for me than the OG was. Wall Market was a high point, of course. The sterile environment of Chapter 15 is a low one.

I mean there is still some guilt on Avalanche's part for the reactor bombings. Especially with Reactor 5, as all Shinra did in that one was change the bomb from a remote detonation to a timed one. As for the Reactor 1 even with Shinra sharing the greater responsibility of the destruction caused, Avalanche still has some culpability in it (and if the theory that Jessie's OG dialogue commenting on the size of the explosion was meant to indicate that Shinra always had involvement is taken at face value, it's even less of a difference from the OG).

Anyways I think the biggest difference between the OG and the Remake (and more broadly older/retro-styled games vs. contemporary Triple AAA games) is that the former is an actively perceived video game experience, while the latter is more of a received video game experience. The more abstract something is the more active perception is required.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's why you need to be careful not to mix your messages when you're conveying recevied information. The Remake told me the Platedrop was a terrible tragedy, but they sure didn't show it to me.

 

[Theozilla]

Hmm, personally I felt that was shown very well in the Remake and more effectively than the OG did. But different experiences for different people.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What did it show you specifically that made you feel that way?

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Just to round out the opinions, I don't think the plate drop was particularly effective in the OG or in the Remake. The idea is cool I guess, but neither one addresses the suspension of disbelief sufficiently, and both have issues with emotional investment. Lots of people die in the OG (I guess?) but we don't know any of them. The destruction is more visceral in the Remake, but inconsistencies and convenient survivals undermine it. To me, any FFVII story has always had problems with big tragedies, but excelled in smaller-scale scenes.

 

[Theozilla]

What did it show you specifically that made you feel that way?

Basically, as I said earlier, it was the all the extra expanded time the Remake spent on showing aftermath of the collapse in Chapters 13-15 and how it affected the inhabitants of the slums, especially with the survivors. Yeah there visual continuity inconsistencies but that really doesn't bring it down for me as I was wholey invested in the characters and world for it to be a bother for me. Like I came away with the intimate feeling of witnessing people recover from a major disaster, it felt very evocative of remembering Hurricane Katrina as a kid and people surviving (and dying) during it. Or the Shin Godzilla film it very similar to that as well (which drew upon cultural memories of the 3/11 disaster).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think the Remake tried to focus on another aspect of the Platefall. It's completely true: in this version, the death isnt as much pictured. You dont truly feel like a lot of people died. But on the other hand, what you do feel, was that this was an event of unprecedented scale, and that people's lives, because a lot of them are alive, is forever changed, possibly ruined. Home is a big theme overall for this game. And the Platefall doesnt really feel like a tragic, murderous incident. But it does feel like a loss of a home. Like there is no where back for these people, the residents that the game didnt kill, to go back to. Atleast not to the way it was before.

Not that having home -- whatever it amounts to -- taken away isn't horrible, but the slumdwellers always lived amongst scrap, so it just kind of comes off like ... their scrap got rearranged and they picked up some bonus scrap.

As cozy as everything was depicted down there in the ending sequences, I half expected the "Cheers" theme to kick in when they set the bar's sign down!

 

[Theozilla]

Not that having home -- whatever it amounts to -- taken away isn't horrible, but the slumdwellers always lived amongst scrap, so it just kind of comes off like ... their scrap got rearranged and they picked up some bonus scrap.

As cozy as everything was depicted down there in the ending sequences, I half expected the "Cheers" theme to kick in when they set the bar's sign down!

I think the very fact that's all the surviving slums dwellers had, and then still got destroyed makes it even more tragic, when one lives in extreme poverty little things have even more value than for people who don't live in it. The destruction the survivors experience was far more grievous than simply having "stuff rearranged" and getting "bonus scrap".

 

[oty]

Just to round out the opinions, I don't think the plate drop was particularly effective in the OG or in the Remake. The idea is cool I guess, but neither one addresses the suspension of disbelief sufficiently, and both have issues with emotional investment. Lots of people die in the OG (I guess?) but we don't know any of them. The destruction is more visceral in the Remake, but inconsistencies and convenient survivals undermine it. To me, any FFVII story has always had problems with big tragedies, but excelled in smaller-scale scenes.

I feel pretty much like this. I didnt mind that much of the Platefall in the Remake because I didnt mind it back in the OG too. The only connection that you had was pretty much with Barret, and his scene amidst the destruction, which we did get in the Remake.

Not that having home -- whatever it amounts to -- taken away isn't horrible, but the slumdwellers always lived amongst scrap, so it just kind of comes off like ... their scrap got rearranged and they picked up some bonus scrap.

As cozy as everything was depicted down there in the ending sequences, I half expected the "Cheers" theme to kick in when they set the bar's sign down!

I think the Remake tried to pass on that idea of, as crappy as that home is, it's still a home. That's why you have the Overworld theme in the Slums, because it is a sweet melody that feels comfortable. The neighbourhood watch. Getting to know where Biggs, Wedge and Jessie lives. Jessie specially, that is said to live in a women-centered part. I mean, they definitely tried. If they managed to....well that's complicated.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think the very fact that's all the surviving slums dwellers had, and then still got destroyed makes it even more tragic, when one lives in extreme poverty little things have even more value than for people who don't live in it. The destruction the survivors experience was far more grievous than simply having "stuff rearranged" and getting "bonus scrap".

Obviously. And maybe that would have some resonance if I had no familiarity with the original. But with respect to the original, that Shin-Ra crushed these people who already led such vulnerable, meager lives made that more tragic.

Since they chose to undercut all of that unfair mortal tragedy here and juxtapose it against happy slumdwellers getting back to a semblance of what life was like before, it didn't do anything for me but remind me of that wall of rubble in the original game that forever separated the people outside it from those still within.

 

[Theozilla]

Obviously. And maybe that would have some resonance if I had no familiarity with the original. But with respect to the original, that Shin-Ra crushed these people who already led such vulnerable, meager lives made that more tragic.

Since they chose to undercut all of that unfair mortal tragedy here and juxtapose it against happy slumdwellers getting back to a semblance of what life was like before, it didn't do anything for me but remind me of that wall of rubble in the original game that forever separated the people outside it from those still within.

I wouldn't say the mortal tragedy is completely undercut though, plenty of people still died. Just because there are survivors now, doesn't mean a tragic loss of life didn't occur. Also I wouldn't describe the ending as showing "happy" slum-dwellers, their is optimism and perseverance/determination for sure, but I wouldn't describe any of them as "happy" with the new challenges ahead of them.

 

[ForceStealer]

If the OG had decide to give us a pre-rendered background of the same kind of wreckage (instead of the tangle of pipes we got) you can absolute bet they would have have shown us cross sections of apartment buildings with beds and kitchens and bathrooms and rolls of toilet paper....

This seems like kind of a strange accusation to level at the Remake while simultaneously pointing out the original decidedly didn't show this.

But like I said, the clincher for me was Corneo's statement that Shinra's super-pissed the body count is so low.

Now, I mentioned this before: that while the lack of named character deaths is definitely a valid complaint, THIS part makes more sense than the original, no? Not only do I not know why Shinra cared about Corneo's leak in the original, I can't figure out how they even knew about it. The fact that Shinra was aiming for a particular body count and didn't hit it at least explains why they'd be coming to ask him questions.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Technically, some named characters died when the plate fell, the only problem is that they're as good as unnamed. Still, by my count Gwen, Narjin, and Katie all died (at least as far as we know). In the likely event those names mean nothing to you, they are the person who asks you to kill the Cerulean Drake, the guard for the factory, and the town crier who reported monster deaths, respectively. In addition, as far as I can tell the unnamed junk dealer who asks you to clear out the factory dies too.

*note: I'm basing this all on who I remember seeing in Chapter 14. So apologies if I missed them and they're still alive. I'll be redoing chapter 14 myself later tonight so I'll keep an eye out then.

 

[ForceStealer]

When I was redoing Chapter 3 for dress choice changing I noticed Katie was definitely one who does not appear to make it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The thing about an event like the platefall is that the only thing that counts is its immediate impact on the player viewer and the emotional repercussions it creates. It's not the LTD or Sephiroth's will v Jenova's will which you can understand better the longer you analyse it. If the Remake version felt like more of a punch to the gut than the OG for you, then that's good. I can't argue that you're wrong, nor would I want to. But the response it evoked from me was "Oh. So it wasn't so bad, then." And my response is valid too.

Theozilla referred earlier to perceived versus received information, or what we call in the fic game "show, don't tell". It seems, from reading the interviews with SE, that they were very aware of this. Someone - Nomura? - said something along the lines of "We can't re-create the experience that each individual player created in their imagination with the OG." The OG relied heavily on perceived information, on players using their imagination, and that's one of the elements that made it great. I would argue that it's a greater game than the Remake can ever be, because it relies on the player's imagination. At any rate, it works better for me.

For all their painstakingly realistic detail, the slums seem like a much tamer place in the Remake than in the OG. Again, this is probably because nothing much is left to my imagination. They don't seem like such terrible places to live. There's no sense of danger or menace - except, of course, from monsters or from Shinra. They may not have much money, but they have a community. They look after each other. This seems realistic, and I appreciate the choice SE made to develop the slums into real "villages" where people do their best to live fulfilling lives - but I would have liked to see it balanced by more of a sense of true desperation and people preying on each other.

One line I missed a lot from the OG was when those scrap guys in Wall Market (I think) talk about how they live from scrounging stuff that falls from above.