SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion

Gazzdw

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Gaz
I was a bit let down by this chapter primarily because of 1 tiny detail which happened prior in the Shira underground lab when the whispers just take you away as well.....I hated the fact that from the wall they just shot their grappling guns and the screen goes black, next thing you know you are just there on a perfect piece of scaffolding in amongst civilians. What about all that traversing up to that point!? I hate it when games do that it feels like there is no world in between those screens. Annoyed me more in the underground lab when the whispers just took you off screen then next screen you are just back at the entrance above ground. Totally takes me out the experience! It happened again actually in the same chapter (the last scene) before appearing in the vicinity of Shinra HQ. Please tell me this bothered someone else too?

Was definitely gutted about them getting rid of the music that plays in the OG during the wall clime to Shinra HQ. Another iconic tune.

On plus side, amazing boss and set up (similar in set to Air Buster I thought) and the new enemies were interesting. Got to use Bahamut for the first time too and wrecked the boss but he didn't survive long enough to unleash his finisher!
 
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Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
As an American, my frame of reference for sector 7's scale of man made destruction is 9/11. Chapter 15 did feel a bit sanitized in comparison, but the real world can be fucking terrifying so that's not surprising. I don't need to see people digging out body parts from smoldering toxic rubble that stretches for acres ever again.

When Barret said "Never forget this" I appreciated that, but the compilation would tell you that their memory of it is selective at best. The fights were just okay and it is very much a transition chapter.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Considering all that's left to happen from between then and now in the Remake, there's more than enough opportunity for the characters to move beyond their grudges towards each other. There's an entire end of the world that's yet to happen.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
The Turks were following orders, not that it diminishes their bad actions, but I guess it's just easy to let go when you're aware they didn't do that out of pure evil intentions. Also, both Tifa and Barret came to feel a lot more responsible for the deaths resulted from them bombing the reactors and the subsequent falling of the Sector 7 plate. So, with this and after the world almost ending, it's not really that hard to believe Tifa just didn't hold that much of a grudge against them anymore.

However, Tifa's tone in that phone call was definitely a little 'too much' for me as well.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Considering all that's left to happen from between then and now in the Remake, there's more than enough opportunity for the characters to move beyond their grudges towards each other. There's an entire end of the world that's yet to happen.

Stuff happened after the end of the world too though. From her line it's clear that she hadn't talked to Reno in a long time. She has however, been talking a lot with her new orphan child, whose parents Reno decided to murder, along with the rest of Sector 7. Smiling at his memory just makes it feels like the filmmakers weren't taking the full history between these characters into account.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
That's the puzzle... If they're stepping up the 'what have I done' moment to before they actually do it... then why did they do it?

I don't want to do X.
I don't like the people asking me to do X.
I'm not afraid of ignoring orders whenever I feel like it.
There are no apparent consequences to not doing X.
I don't think X is necessary or justified.
So... why do X?

I think that's just a misread line. Cloud has a much more appropriate reaction of 'pull out sword'
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Except, we dont know if they are not afraid to ignore orders, and we dont know if there would be no consequences to not doing it. We also have Tseng literally saying "if we didnt do it, someone else would" to push even further the idea that not only were the Turks maybe misguided, they were trapped. Shinra may be dumb, but it knows how to put a leash on their dogs.

Also, we are talking about Tifa here. She got her life ruined by Shinra, twice btw, and still didnt wanna punch anyone to death. She expresses that Shinra not only has good people there, but also admits it makes people's life easier. I mean, how we can take all of this and not expect her to forgive the Turks for something they clearly wanna redeem themselves for?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Except, we dont know if they are not afraid to ignore orders, and we dont know if there would be no consequences to not doing it.

Particularly after their crossing of Shin-Ra in "Before Crisis" had them set for execution until Rufus stepped in to save them, I imagine they would be hesitant to refuse orders now lest that result in a) getting their colleagues killed along with them in retaliation and b) harming Rufus's reputation and/or standing in the company.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Well, we see no leash, and across the Compilation the Turks constantly dodge orders they don't like at every turn. Hard to believe it's suddenly different for this one.

Tseng's line is treated like a poor excuse even in that scene.
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Also Tifa saying “Yeah, I remember you” in a playful/sarcastic tone isn’t exactly the same as being howdy doody friends with Reno.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
The Remake (and Compilation) are incredibly toothless about putting too much blame on much-beloved fan faves (Inc. Avalanche, and the Turks). I find it all rather distastefully palatable, and I have no doubt it's going to continue doing this, which makes me roll my eyes.
 
If we want to take BC as canon, then we have the Turks in a position where one false step will lead to their deaths. To me, though, this would be a reason to say, "screw these orders, I'm outta here", and flee into hiding like the rest of their compadres. However, they can't do this because Rufus needs their support

If the game had wanted the player to think along these lines about the Turks and their involvement in the platedrop, they had the opportunity to put this information in the script. They didn't. But who knows, maybe they're saving it for Part II.

Throughout BC, the Turks do increasingly defy Shinra's orders, though never on a whim, always when some major personal issue is at stake: saving Zack, saving Veld. Also, the player BC Turks question Shinra much more than the NPC Turks - Rude, Reno, Tseng.

Rude, Reno and Tseng are accustomed to following orders rather than listening to their consciences. They have a habit or culture of obedience, which they take enormous pride in. Their consciences were probably not very loud to begin with; nobody can succeed in their line of work if they have a conscience that is constantly intefering with their orders.

I'm trying to think of other instances where they point blank refused to follow orders.
- The Wutai sidequest. Two grunts run in and expect the Turks to drop what they're doing and chase Corneo. Reno doesn't understand the rush. They'll catch Corneo in their own time. This isn't really refusing orders so much as refusing to be ordered around by a couple of troopers much lower down on the command totem pole. And they do indeed deal effectively with Corneo, in their own time, in their own way.
- the Wutai sidequest, refusing to capture Avalanche. Again, Reno hasn't refused the order. He has a kind of rogue's honour that won't allow him to turn on people he was cooperating with five minute earlier, so he's giving them a head start. If they're still around in Wutai tomorrow, he'll deal with them.
- in the Midgar tunnels. The end of the world is hours away. Fighting Avalanche seems pretty pointless now, but they'll do it if you insist

I'd say it's less a case of point-blank refusing to obey orders, as of demanding and expecting to be allowed to use their own judgement as to how those orders are carried out. They are obedient, but not blindly so.

Why wasn't the plate-drop the line the Turks could not cross, the order they found they couldn't bring themselves to carry out? It's an interesting question, by which I mean it's a question that helps to make them interesting characters. They've been doing bad stuff for so long that the difference between the platedrop and all the previous things they've done in the line of duty is merely quantitive, not qualitative.

And I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I think the game writers did a great job of showing their doubt and hesitation, and then turning the struggle on the pillar into a personal battle between Cloud, Tifa and Barret on one side and Rude and Reno on the other. The Turks are no longer trying to drop a plate on 100,000 people's heads. They're trying to defeat Avalanche. They're no longer besmirching their honour by participating in an atrocity; in the heat of the moment, they are defending their honour by refusing to let the enemy get in their way.

I imagine they are both practiced and trained in not dwelling on thoughts of guilt after the event. Nevertheless, they can't shake it off this time.

I have no doubt that in the Remake the writing will make it clear that the guilt they feel affects all of their subsequent actions, whether those actions aim to justify, or atone for, their involvement in the plate drop.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I have no doubt that in the Remake the writing will make it clear that the guilt they feel affects all of their subsequent actions, whether those actions aim to justify, or atone for, their involvement in the plate drop.

Ever since the Compilation introduced the notion of a conscience to the Turks, I've said that Reno's "Payback time for what you did in Sector 7" line at Gongaga was dying to be contextualized as him (temporarily) blaming Avalanche for the escalation of deadly events that culminated in that excessive deed being ordered.

I'm now more convinced of that than I've been before.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
The Remake (and Compilation) are incredibly toothless about putting too much blame on much-beloved fan faves (Inc. Avalanche, and the Turks). I find it all rather distastefully palatable, and I have no doubt it's going to continue doing this, which makes me roll my eyes.

This duality of the Turks being presented in the Remake, the seeds of their increasing disconnection with Shinra, is just spot on, which is why I dont put it in the same spot as the "Avalanche didnt really blow up the reactors" side of things.

It's definitely part of their characterization, and also of a plan. I'm 100% sure that all of that is pointing towards the Turks disconnecting themselves fully from Shinra, while expanding them and humanizing them beyond what they were shown in the OG. They simply are not the villains shown in the OG. If anything, by AC, they are meant to deep down be part of the heroes.

If we want to take BC as canon, then we have the Turks in a position where one false step will lead to their deaths. To me, though, this would be a reason to say, "screw these orders, I'm outta here", and flee into hiding like the rest of their compadres. However, they can't do this because Rufus needs their support

If the game had wanted the player to think along these lines about the Turks and their involvement in the platedrop, they had the opportunity to put this information in the script. They didn't. But who knows, maybe they're saving it for Part II.

Throughout BC, the Turks do increasingly defy Shinra's orders, though never on a whim, always when some major personal issue is at stake: saving Zack, saving Veld. Also, the player BC Turks question Shinra much more than the NPC Turks - Rude, Reno, Tseng.

Rude, Reno and Tseng are accustomed to following orders rather than listening to their consciences. They have a habit or culture of obedience, which they take enormous pride in. Their consciences were probably not very loud to begin with; nobody can succeed in their line of work if they have a conscience that is constantly intefering with their orders.

I'm trying to think of other instances where they point blank refused to follow orders.
- The Wutai sidequest. Two grunts run in and expect the Turks to drop what they're doing and chase Corneo. Reno doesn't understand the rush. They'll catch Corneo in their own time. This isn't really refusing orders so much as refusing to be ordered around by a couple of troopers much lower down on the command totem pole. And they do indeed deal effectively with Corneo, in their own time, in their own way.
- the Wutai sidequest, refusing to capture Avalanche. Again, Reno hasn't refused the order. He has a kind of rogue's honour that won't allow him to turn on people he was cooperating with five minute earlier, so he's giving them a head start. If they're still around in Wutai tomorrow, he'll deal with them.
- in the Midgar tunnels. The end of the world is hours away. Fighting Avalanche seems pretty pointless now, but they'll do it if you insist

I'd say it's less a case of point-blank refusing to obey orders, as of demanding and expecting to be allowed to use their own judgement as to how those orders are carried out. They are obedient, but not blindly so.

Why wasn't the plate-drop the line the Turks could not cross, the order they found they couldn't bring themselves to carry out? It's an interesting question, by which I mean it's a question that helps to make them interesting characters. They've been doing bad stuff for so long that the difference between the platedrop and all the previous things they've done in the line of duty is merely quantitive, not qualitative.

And I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I think the game writers did a great job of showing their doubt and hesitation, and then turning the struggle on the pillar into a personal battle between Cloud, Tifa and Barret on one side and Rude and Reno on the other. The Turks are no longer trying to drop a plate on 100,000 people's heads. They're trying to defeat Avalanche. They're no longer besmirching their honour by participating in an atrocity; in the heat of the moment, they are defending their honour by refusing to let the enemy get in their way.

I imagine they are both practiced and trained in not dwelling on thoughts of guilt after the event. Nevertheless, they can't shake it off this time.

I have no doubt that in the Remake the writing will make it clear that the guilt they feel affects all of their subsequent actions, whether those actions aim to justify, or atone for, their involvement in the plate drop.
I really felt that too. Reno's "nothing personal, bitch!' is so spot on in regards to who he is, it's amazing. It is personal. He makes it personal.

I think the next installment(s) can finally shed some light in how much BC exists within the Remake continuity. It really can explain why the Turks are, atleast at the beggining of the Remake, much more onboard with Shinra than maybe someone would expect.
 
The Turks don't disconnect themselves from Shinra, though. The one constant in their characterisation is their devotion to Nojima's best boy Rufus, and I'd be gobsmacked into next Tuesday if that were to change. Rufus never, ever asks them to do anything remotely as atrocious as squashing thousands of innocent souls under a concrete plate. As far as I can remember, every single mission they undertake under Rufus' Presidency is both focused and makes good practical sense.

Reno and Rude know perfectly well that Rufus trusts them implicitly and gives them carte blanche to carry out their orders as they see fit. That's why the grunt's threat "Head office is gonna hear about this," simply sounds ludicrous to them.

Headcanon: President Shinra, still fuming over their wilful disobedience in Before Crisis, deliberately picked the Turks to carry out the platedrop in order to fuck with their heads. Obey or disobey, they're screwed either way. You know it's the kind of thing the old bastard would do.

(I have spent far too much time thinking about this)
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
This duality of the Turks being presented in the Remake, the seeds of their increasing disconnection with Shinra, is just spot on, which is why I dont put it in the same spot as the "Avalanche didnt really blow up the reactors" side of things.

It's definitely part of their characterization, and also of a plan. I'm 100% sure that all of that is pointing towards the Turks disconnecting themselves fully from Shinra, while expanding them and humanizing them beyond what they were shown in the OG. They simply are not the villains shown in the OG. If anything, by AC, they are meant to deep down be part of the heroes.

I dont think its bad characterization in a narrowed lens. It's just one of the things that when added to the whole picture, it contributes to the Disney-fication effect for me. This type of duality would be easier for me to take seriously if that same duality was more adequately mirrored in the actual heroes.

Instead it feels more like "Dont hate these guys too much!! They're too sexy to be that bad!"

I don't have much more to say about it other than that. It's cool of you dig it, I just find it incredibly weak.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
The Turks don't disconnect themselves from Shinra, though. The one constant in their characterisation is their devotion to Nojima's best boy Rufus, and I'd be gobsmacked into next Tuesday if that were to change. Rufus never, ever asks them to do anything remotely as atrocious as squashing thousands of innocent souls under a concrete plate. As far as I can remember, every single mission they undertake under Rufus' Presidency is both focused and makes good practical sense.

Reno and Rude know perfectly well that Rufus trusts them implicitly and gives them carte blanche to carry out their orders as they see fit. That's why the grunt's threat "Head office is gonna hear about this," simply sounds ludicrous to them.

Headcanon: President Shinra, still fuming over their wilful disobedience in Before Crisis, deliberately picked the Turks to carry out the platedrop in order to fuck with their heads. Obey or disobey, they're screwed either way. You know it's the kind of thing the old bastard would do.

(I have spent far too much time thinking about this)
Yeah I was talking more about old school Shinra. Prez, Heidegger, Hojo. All that. Rufus is a softie deep down, that ends up being the money guy for the WRO, right? Makes sense they would keep following him. He also had a change of heart, and seeks redemption.
 
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