SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion

[Tetsujin]

I expect any Compilation HD remaster would go the way of the Kingdom Hearts ones. Two games (Crisis Core and Dirge) and a cutscene collection/summary (Before Crisis). I'd bet on that happening at some point down the line.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tseng, Rude and Reno are of a part of the Turks of Before Crisis. They are not some inheritely different kind of being. Like I said, the only thing that seperates Rude and Reno feom Tseng's other underlings at the time is what missions they happened to be on.

They aren't the BC playable Turks. The Turks who are not part of Shinra anymore, and who went through a specific character arc of growth and realization that led them to abandon Shinra. They aren't all the same, come on. The difference that separates the Turks from FFVII from the ones of BC is the fact they carry on past that entry. They have their own unique character arcs that are separate and independent from what the playable character Turk experiences.

Veldt's entire characterisations that allows us to believe his men would stick to him over Shinra rests on being the kind of guy that wouldn't countenance the kind of tragedy like what he witnessed at Kalm be repeated. Unlike Tseng in Remake who does exactly that.

That's your opinion. He's not part of the story or in the picture however, is he? So that's not his responsibility or the narrative framing of how Tseng sees his role in Shinra now. It's his job to function as the head of the Turks, fulfill his duties, work precisely and efficiently, and dirty his hands if necessary so that no one else close to him has to do it. It's as simple as that. Tseng has undergone his own transformation that's closed off his heart but that's how it is. Verdot did the same until he got out.

like good old whatshisface whom he'll miss so.

Don't really see how that matters to them.

Not killing millions is a reason. Not subjecting a girl who they've known and protected for many years to rape and torture is a reason. Working under the person they actually believe in (Veldt) instead of the scum of the earth (Heidegger) is a reason. Living their lives alongside their other coworkers in the Turks again, their supposed family is a reason.

And that does not outweigh the importance of those who are important to them. That's not their priority. And I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of rape and torture. The Turks certainly did not try to subject her to rape and/or torture. If you go by Before Crisis and Crisis Core, Tseng specifically believes that his orders are to protect Aerith and keep her safe within Shinra custody as the last surviving Ancient. Custody that is forceful yet pleasant and hospitable. He was not privy of the actual goals or ambitions of Hojo, given the fact he's not part of the executive counsel or the Science Dept. Saying he's somehow okay with that happening to Aerith is a huge distortion of his character.

Like I said, that's your perspective, but to them within the narrative, they're protecting their comrades and friends from Shinra. They're doing the dirty work so they don't have to, and subsequently die for being traitors to the company. They're flawed and messed up for a reason. It's by design, otherwise they'd be the heroes alongside Cloud and the others.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Both in the OG and in the Remake it is made clear to us that the plate drop is something nobody could stop or prevent. Reeve tried, but he's so impotent he was reduced to sending his toy cat to mourn at the scene. Tseng is right that if the Turks had not done it, someone else would. Their refusal to get their hands dirty in this instance would not have saved any lives and might well have cost their own, which in turn would have compromised the coup d'etat Rufus is obviously planning in the Remake. Given that the plate was going to be dropped no matter what, it makes internal sense, narrative-wise, for the Turks to be the ones to do it. President Shinra will be reassured of their loyalty, which will help Rufus. Anyway, their consciences are already so stained, and their hands already so dirty, what's one more atrocity? Sunk costs, right? It will all be worth it if Rufus gains the throne.

Of course the writers could have had Reno and Rude baulking at pressing the final button... But if the plate hadn't dropped, it wouldn't be FFVII. Someone had to do it. Maybe it should have been the Whispers?

 

[Roger]

They aren't the BC playable Turks. The Turks who are not part of Shinra anymore, and who went through a specific character arc of growth and realization that led them to abandon Shinra. They aren't all the same, come on. The difference that separates the Turks from FFVII from the ones of BC is the fact they carry on past that entry. They have their own unique character arcs that are separate and independent from what the playable character Turk experiences.

Please don't switch between single and plural from one sentence to the next. The Turks of Before Crisis were a group of a dozen people. The things that happened to their group that led them to leave Shinra happened to all of them, as group as a whole, not just the one you are playing on any particular mission in the game. And Reno, Rude and Tseng were part of the group for that period of time and it happened for them too. But when Tseng made his deal, Reno and Rude happened to be there physically with him, the others were elsewhere and thus got out.

He's not part of the story or in the picture however, is he? So that's not his responsibility or the narrative framing of how Tseng sees his role in Shinra now.

I agree! He's not part of this narrative framing. He was an important part of Tseng's story in that silly mobile game, not this one. He might never be shown to factor into his decision making here.

Don't really see how that matters to them.

He's Reno's co-worker in Shinra. His family as you describe it, one of the people he does everything for, right?

And that does not outweigh the importance of those who are important to them. That's not their priority. And I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of rape and torture. The Turks certainly did not try to subject her to rape and/or torture. If you go by Before Crisis and Crisis Core, Tseng specifically believes that his orders are to protect Aerith and keep her safe within Shinra custody as the last surviving Ancient. Custody that is forceful yet pleasant and hospitable. He was not privy of the actual goals or ambitions of Hojo, given the fact he's not part of the executive counsel or the Science Dept. Saying he's somehow okay with that happening to Aerith is a huge distortion of his character.

Oh come on. Elmyra and Tifa are bad enough. Cloud being talked out of saving Aerith just like that even after mentioning Hojo and expressing knowledge of what he is like is even worse. But are we really gonna argue that Shinra's kidnapping squad think it all goes swell for their victims afterwards? It's not some big secret that despite their intentions, Hojo's experimentation on Ifalna caused her death. The Remake doesn't really leave any ambiguity there. Specially if we are taking Crisis Core and Before Crisis as entirely unchanged canon. It gives Tseng (and Zack) plenty insight into what goes on in the Science Department.

Like I said, that's your perspective, but to them within the narrative, they're protecting their comrades and friends from Shinra. They're doing the dirty work so they don't have to, and subsequently die for being traitors to the company. They're flawed and messed up for a reason. It's by design, otherwise they'd be the heroes alongside Cloud and the others.

The heroes of the game committed themselves to blowing up reactor after reactor despite the body count. And they don't need this excuse that they would 100% die if they did otherwise, because when it comes to making good on the threats they supposedly use to keep the Turks in line, President Shinra and Heidegger are apparently perfect killing machines, while they make mistakes left and right when it comes to any other part of executing their duties.

Both in the OG and in the Remake it is made clear to us that the plate drop is something nobody could stop or prevent. Reeve tried, but he's so impotent he was reduced to sending his toy cat to mourn at the scene. Tseng is right that if the Turks had not done it, someone else would. Their refusal to get their hands dirty in this instance would not have saved any lives and might well have cost their own,

They were already evacuating people out of Sector 7. Not pressing the button so Shinra would have to bring in some other team to do some other day would have made a HUGE difference in whose lives would be spared, obviously. Every minute the button didn't get pushed counts. If indeed, it's all that inevitable. The Turks are the best at their jobs. If the Turks aren't there to do their jobs, it would mean a reduced efficiency in that aspect of the business. Which is doing the dirty work. Even outside of the platedrop, any day they leave their jobs, lives get spared. As Cloud and Aerith describe it putting lives in harms way is pretty much what they do. And it'll take decades for Shinra to train someone up to have as much experience in that business as Tseng.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It isn't true that all the BC Turks have the same experiences. At the end of the game, they split into two parties. One party, comprising the NPC Turks (Tseng, Rude, Reno), go off to rescue Veld from his imprisonment in a garbage dump. Reno and Rude are not privy to the deal Tseng struck with Rufus. We know this because when Tseng shoots Veld, Reno thinks it's for real.

Meanwhile, all the BC-only Turks are out in another part of the wasteland fighting Zirconiade. They triumph, but are declared killed in action. To be honest, I don't know for a fact whether they defected right after killing Zirconiade or whether they were declared dead in order to keep them alive, i.e. to preserve them from the wrath of Scarlet and President Shinra, and only decided not to return after they had been in hiding for some while. Maybe someone knows the text that will confirm this either way.

In any case, they gradually start returning to work during the events leading up to ACC.

The BC Turks are not designed to be a single mono-Turk. They have unique personalities, characteristics, and reactions to the events around. They're individuals.

I don't think we can pretend Tseng doesn't know what will happen to Aerith once he takes her into the Shinra building. But he also knows that she will be kept alive. That's his primary objective, to keep her alive. Ever since she met Cloud, she's been doing her best to get herself killed. When he finds her, she's collapsed on the ground in Sector 7 surrounded by burning buildings. They have reached the point where she is safer inside the Shinra building than outsider it. And frankly, if Tseng and Cloud ever meet in the time after the end of the game, Tseng would be justifed in pointing out that he kept Aerith alive for 13 years. A couple of months after putting her trust in Cloud, she was dead.

The point you make about the pillar are reasonable, Roger, but the writers' hands were tied by the events of the original game. The fans would not have accepted it if Rude and Reno had refused to drop the plate and some random grunt had to be flown in to do it. You know they wouldn't. Certain plot points are sacrosanct, and this was one of them.

 

[dz]

My original comment was mostly just a joke, since I'm still a bitter little whiner about the fact I can't play this stupid cellphone game despite how integral it is to understanding the Turks.

Its kind of weird to think my android phone is powerful enough to play Crisis Core on an emulator, but Before Crisis isn't available anywhere.

Whilst the official Before Crisis game was only in Japanese, there is a fan-made version of Before Crisis game playable on Windows if you want to experience the feel of the game:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/9051/
Or Grimoire Valentines youtube vids:

 

[dz]

The point you make about the pillar are reasonable, Roger, but the writers' hands were tied by the events of the original game. The fans would not have accepted it if Rude and Reno had refused to drop the plate and some random grunt had to be flown in to do it. You know they wouldn't. Certain plot points are sacrosanct, and this was one of them.

Hahaha I love just thinking of the level of fan rage that would have ensued if we got to the plate drop and Reno and Rude decided to be to good guys instead. It'd be the basis for an interesting fic, but bad for the FFVII story and the Turks brand, it would have undermined their credibility and appeal as part of FFVII's bad guy collection and as the department that carries out Shinra's dirty work.

 

[Roger]

It isn't true that all the BC Turks have the same experiences. At the end of the game, they split into two parties. One party, comprising the NPC Turks (Tseng, Rude, Reno), go off to rescue Veld from his imprisonment in a garbage dump. Reno and Rude are not privy to the deal Tseng struck with Rufus. We know this because when Tseng shoots Veld, Reno thinks it's for real.

Meanwhile, all the BC-only Turks are out in another part of the wasteland fighting Zirconiade. They triumph, but are declared killed in action. To be honest, I don't know for a fact whether they defected right after killing Zirconiade or whether they were declared dead in order to keep them alive, i.e. to preserve them from the wrath of Scarlet and President Shinra, and only decided not to return after they had been in hiding for some while. Maybe someone knows the text that will confirm this either way.

In any case, they gradually start returning to work during the events leading up to ACC.

The BC Turks are not designed to be a single mono-Turk. They have unique personalities, characteristics, and reactions to the events around. They're individuals.

Yes, at the end of the game. The six years of progressing disillusionment with Shinra that Before Crisis depicted didn't somehow happen to 10 people that had the same job as Reno and Rude but not at all to them. Those 10 people might have different reactions to how they ended up in the predicament but not one of them returned to work for Rufus after his dad died, not Cissnei who was raised in Shinra her whole life, nor even Elena's older sister. I don't see why I would believe Reno and Rude both have some code of honor that made them different, beyond not being on the fighting Zirconiade detail that day.

I don't think we can pretend Tseng doesn't know what will happen to Aerith once he takes her into the Shinra building. But he also knows that she will be kept alive. That's his primary objective, to keep her alive. Ever since she met Cloud, she's been doing her best to get herself killed. When he finds her, she's collapsed on the ground in Sector 7 surrounded by burning buildings. They have reached the point where she is safer inside the Shinra building than outsider it. And frankly, if Tseng and Cloud ever meet in the time after the end of the game, Tseng would be justifed in pointing out that he kept Aerith alive for 13 years. A couple of months after putting her trust in Cloud, she was dead.

Cloud would be justified in pointing out that Hojo would not have kept Aerith alive just because President Shinra wanted it so and if Tseng, the head of Shinra Investigative Division, had ever taken an interest in the person he would be delivering Aerith too, he'd have undserstood this years ago. He shoot his turk bodyguard and experimented on him, mutilated his coworker and wife, killed his former boss and Aerith's father, experimented on Aerith mother's leading to her death. Had a massive dungeon full of genetically engineered monstrosities right in the middle of Shinra HQ for anyone to see. Cloud saved her from Hojo when no one, no one else (it kills me that this is the case) wanted to bother.

The point you make about the pillar are reasonable, Roger, but the writers' hands were tied by the events of the original game. The fans would not have accepted it if Rude and Reno had refused to drop the plate and some random grunt had to be flown in to do it. You know they wouldn't. Certain plot points are sacrosanct, and this was one of them.

They should never have been portrayed as being loyal to something other then Shinra in the right place. Before Crisis writers knew this was in their future when they wrote Veldt and how the Kalm burning was some moral event horizon for him. They made a mess and Remake needs to clean it up.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I find it really interesting that the fandom has no problem giving Reeve a pass for all the highly compromised shit he does, and never questions that he's a fundamentally decent, deeply conflicted human being. I'm not even trying to arguing that any of the Turks are fundamentally decent; they don't have to be in order to feel some prickings of conscience.

Hojo has no interest in killing Aerith. Why would he do that? That makes no sense at all. If anything, he wants to breed her. Hojo didn't shoot Vincent for no reason, he shot him because he was getting in the way of the Jenova experiment. He killed Gast for thge same reason, though there was probably something personal in that one, a tinge of professional rivalry. He didn't kill Ifalna; she died escaping.

Anyway, Tseng knows that Rufus will be taking over soon. Things will be different once he's in charge.

I'm sorry the writers didn't develop their characters and their story the way you would have preferred. Not everybody thinks it is as big a mess as you do.

 

[looneymoon]

Man, if I really wish they stuck with the FF7 anime stuff they were putting out for a while. The Nomura style drawings look really slick in motion, especially with the bold line work he had in that era.

Also, after all this remake stuff is done, a comrades-like companion game (or DLC) featuring The Turks has the potential to be really cool.

I find it really interesting that the fandom has no problem giving Reeve a pass for all the highly compromised shit he does, and never questions that he's a fundamentally decent, deeply conflicted human being. I'm not even trying to arguing that any of the Turks are fundamentally decent; they don't have to be in order to feel some prickings of conscience.

It's funny you brought that up, because I've kind of thought about this a bit as well lately. I think the difference is that Reeve has always been portrayed in a pretty powerless and/or reluctant position? I don't want to say The Turks have agency really (esp since my knowledge of BC is mostly secondhand/ from summaries), but I think it says something that they'd choose to be in that kind of profession in the first place. Reeve is a more grounded depiction of someone who wants change from within. I'm sure that's a position a lot of people can more readily see themselves in. Of course he's complicit in some seriously fucked up shit, but I think it opens up a more complicated discussion than when talking about a bunch of cutthroat assassin types.

Not to mention that he's often overlooked because of that weird thing with stuffed, robotic cat toys

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm not sure if we can count BC into the lore or not, it depends on how part 2 goes. But either way, it doesn't work too well.

My impression of the end of BC is that President Shinra genuinely believes that the Turks have proven their loyalty by killing their rogue leader, and that the others were really killed when Zirconiade exploded. There's no threat to them, because they can just effectively disappear, which we know because they already have done it.

Across BC, we've seen Turks pretend to fail their missions, pretend to have faulty comm equipment, we've seen Veld blackmail his way back into his post after he's removed from it. We've seen them outright rebel when they really don't want to do something. They have power, they're not mindless drones. And there's not much to indicate they can't do that now, they have every chance. When Reno is down, a sword as his throat, and is asked 'how do we stop it', he could tell them if he wanted, and nobody could say he didn't give it his best.

No one acts like the Turks are under pressure or can't refuse, in the OG and remake, Heidegger just casually mentions that they're assigned, there's nothing about last chances or tests.

Tseng knows who Hojo is. He knows he doesn't kidnap people to hand them ice creams. He knows how much harm he can do to someone without killing them (he was at Nibelheim), and whatever Hojo did to Ifalna appears to have killed her by accident. A primary role of the Turks is to kidnap Hojo's victims, (Nibelheim, Red XIII, the raid on Costa Del Sol.) They know what kind of person he is.

The idea that Tseng 'kept Aeris alive for thirteen years' doesn't work. Not actively harming someone isn't keeping them alive by any stretch of the imagination, that's like, below the minimum of basic decency. Aeris defends herself by all accounts, with some help from Zack and that Angeal copy, and was doing fine before she was found. Children roam the slums all the time, they do patrols in apparent safety.

Both in the OG and in the Remake it is made clear to us that the plate drop is something nobody could stop or prevent. Reeve tried, but he's so impotent he was reduced to sending his toy cat to mourn at the scene. Tseng is right that if the Turks had not done it, someone else would. Their refusal to get their hands dirty in this instance would not have saved any lives and might well have cost their own, which in turn would have compromised the coup d'etat Rufus is obviously planning in the Remake. Given that the plate was going to be dropped no matter what, it makes internal sense, narrative-wise, for the Turks to be the ones to do it. President Shinra will be reassured of their loyalty, which will help Rufus. Anyway, their consciences are already so stained, and their hands already so dirty, what's one more atrocity? Sunk costs, right? It will all be worth it if Rufus gains the throne.

I don't think so. You can't send just anyone to drop the pillar, it's really really important that no one knows Shinra is behind it. Some random grunts have already tried, and been repelled by AVALANCHE. The Turks go on several missions that other SOLDIER are not available for because it involves Shinra secrets that can't be allowed to become common knowledge. They're specifically the unit that gets sent on the missions that are too sensitive for everyone else. The more people that know the mission, the more likely it is that it leaks, which becomes a BIG problem for Shinra's plans. Tseng is just trying to assuage his concience, and not even Reno can buy that excuse.

Even a delay in the pillarfall would save lives, as more people would have had time to evacuate.

Reeve is shown actively arguing with his bosses and sending Cait Sith to try to stop it. He's trying, but has no power. The Turks have the power but don't try.

I wonder about fandom hate for Lucrecia in a similar fashion. Fandom's weird like that.

If you wanted the pillar to fall and wanted to give the Turks a solid arc, how about this. They hate AVALANCHE. They really hate AVALANCHE, after having to fight them so long, blaming them for the loss of their comrades, and are willing to sacrifice a sector of the city to finally put the threat to rest.

Reno, Rude and Tseng are on a separate mission because of their loyalty to Veld, not Shinra. They're willing to die in his defence, except Tseng finds a way to save his life. It's not because they're particularly loyal to Shinra that they do this, they just get spared as part of the deal.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Before Crisis AVALANCHE just deadass rolls into Chapter 4 of the FFVII Remake.

The latest installment of the Compilation.

I'm positive we can count on it's continued relevance and influence here.

No one acts like the Turks are under pressure or can't refuse, in the OG and remake, Heidegger just casually mentions that they're assigned, there's nothing about last chances or tests.

Because this isn't the Turks' story. This is still Final Fantasy VII, the story focused on Cloud and the others. A deep dive into the intricate minutiae of the history of the Turks and their personal histories is not where the story's going to focus and unfold here. Certain nods and contexts exist from Before Crisis in terms of how the Turks are framed here, but to fully know it, you ultimately have to go into Before Crisis itself.

They simply don't "act" like it, because it's not part of the story, it's already happened and they've accepted it. That drama has been played out and is not necessary for FFVII at all. They're the antagonists here.

Tseng knows who Hojo is. He knows he doesn't kidnap people to hand them ice creams. He knows how much harm he can do to someone without killing them (he was at Nibelheim), and whatever Hojo did to Ifalna appears to have killed her by accident. A primary role of the Turks is to kidnap Hojo's victims, (Nibelheim, Red XIII, the raid on Costa Del Sol.) They know what kind of person he is.

How does he know who Hojo is? Where have they met? Where have they interacted? When did Tseng become privy to Hojo's machinations and ultimate plans for Aerith, and learn of her mother's death? He was a child when that happened. I doubt a 9 year old would have been present for that.

And going by the Turks interactions with Azul and Shalua, no. The Turks don't know what happens to those they bring in as SOLDIER candidates. They're under the belief that those who get scouted and conscripted for SOLDIER, join SOLDIER. They have no damn clue about what happens after their job is done. It's compartmentalized labor. They do their job, and it's passed down the chain to the next person. You're projecting knowledge onto them that they do not have.

The idea that Tseng 'kept Aeris alive for thirteen years' doesn't work. Not actively harming someone isn't keeping them alive by any stretch of the imagination, that's like, below the minimum of basic decency. Aeris defends herself by all accounts, with some help from Zack and that Angeal copy, and was doing fine before she was found. Children roam the slums all the time, they do patrols in apparent safety.

But the Turks do watch out for her and keep her under surveillance. Cissnei even explains that to Zack during his vacation at Costa del Sol. She's the last living Cetra and Tseng's protection, however you judge it to be, is his job. You can call it below minimum decency all you like, but that's what the Turks did, until they were finally ordered to bring her in. Part of the reason she wasn't forcefully returned to the Shinra Company earlier was because Tseng put it off as much as possible.

I don't think so. You can't send just anyone to drop the pillar, it's really really important that no one knows Shinra is behind it. Some random grunts have already tried, and been repelled by AVALANCHE. The Turks go on several missions that other SOLDIER are not available for because it involves Shinra secrets that can't be allowed to become common knowledge. They're specifically the unit that gets sent on the missions that are too sensitive for everyone else. The more people that know the mission, the more likely it is that it leaks, which becomes a BIG problem for Shinra's plans. Tseng is just trying to assuage his concience, and not even Reno can buy that excuse.

Are you serious?

No it isn't important. The entire pillar assault proved that. The residents of Sector 7's slums saw with their own two eyes Shinra troops trying to attack the pillar and destroy it. Dozens and dozens of people who escaped the plate collapse know for a fact that Shinra attacked the pillar and wiped out Sector 7 but the prevailing narrative is that AVALANCHE did it. The truth does not matter one bit because Shinra's media control is absolute and the truth isn't going to stand in the way of the prevailing narrative that they've constructed. They could have easily sent anyone to drop the pillar and it would mean nothing because as long as their media told the story, the majority of the public around the world would believe Shinra over some randoms off the street. That's extremely naive to think. Because Shinra wanted that plate dropped, it was going to be dropped. Either by the Turks, Public Security, or a robot. As fucked up as Tseng's rationale is, he's not lying. President Shinra's decision condemned that sector to destruction.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

1. BC Turks failing in their missions.
No one is claiming they don't sometimes refuse to carry out orders. However, their defiance is never on a whim or because they simply don't like their orders. They do it when a conflict of loyalties arises, or when some point of greater duty or honour is at stake. These are usually of a highly personal nature, rather than abstractly moral. If Rufus Shinra was under that plate, they'd find a way to prevent it being dropped.

2. Protecting Aerith
The Remake makes it pretty clear that Aerith knows the three remaining Turks well and has, let's say, fairly cordial relations with them. Reno describes himself as her bodyguard, albeit in jest because they both know whose interests he's really protecting when he protects her. But they do protect her. The slums are a dangerous place and Aerith wasn't always a big girl who could fight her own battles. However, they don't pretend to be something they're not. Tseng knows he's not her benefactor, even if his actions sometimes have the appearance of it.

I have to disagree with Mako here. Tseng is the chief Turk; the main job of the Turks is to protect company secrets, and the things that go on in the Science department are some of Shinra's top secrets. He may not know all the details, but he must know who Hojo is and what he does. Indeed, BC makes that clear. Indeed, it's hard to believe that the Turks know nothing about Deepground; however, that what canon tell us, so we have to accept it.

3. The Pillar
So well done in the Remake - a marvellous mess! So many people all running around shooting at each other: the neighbourhood watch, Avalanche, Shinra troopers, the Turks.... I wouldn't be surprised if the Shinra troopers were told that Avalanche was attacking the pillar and their orders were to protect it. So much confusion and misinformation; how will the truth ever come out? Probably only six of the people involved feel entirely sure they know what was going on: the three Turks, and the three surviving members of Avalanche. And who is going to believe Avalanche? All Shinra needed to do was dress up some poor grunt in civvies, send him in to press the button, and leave him to die there. Mako's absolutely right that many of the Sector 7 survivors know Shinra was behind the plate-drop, but he's also right that in the short term it doesn't matter. Conspiracy theorists will be sidelined, even though they happen to be right this time; prevailing narrative will prevail.

Thus, given that no lives would be saved by their refusal to take part, the brutally pragmatic choice for the Turks is to obey their orders.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tseng only learned the full extent of Shinra's connection to Jenova and the full extent of their experiments with it a year after FFVII. He only recently learned of it's mimicry at that time too. All thanks to Rufus. None of them knew exactly what they were up against, or what the Science Department really was.

That's how much knowledge Tseng as the "Chief Turk" had about the Science Department. This assumption he would somehow be in-the-know of things that only the executive board would know is a bit much. No, Tseng was not aware of any of that, and he certainly didn't know of anything in regards to Hojo and his plans for Aerith or Ifalna. None of the Turks were privy to that info, it was a "Need to know" basis.

FYI, they didn't even know that Zack had been experimented on or anything after Nibelheim. They only found out about Zack being alive when Cissnei confronted him and reported that the rogue samples who escaped was Zack and a grunt. So yeah. These assumptions of knowledge and awareness for Tseng are way off base.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The Turks know Hojo's lab produces monsters. From BC episode 10

Veld
Monster research is one of the company’s most important classified projects. The only people aware of the project’s existence are the higher ups. We have to keep this incident as quiet as possible.
Player
So that means… only the Turks can act?
Veld
That’s right. We’re not talking about ordinary monsters here – we can’t depend on SOLDIER for this. Prepare yourself. Get what you need and then get to the 65th floor.

In BC episode 13 it's absolutely clear that the Turks knows Zack and Cloud are alive and that Hojo is going to use them for experiments. I can't quote the whole thing, but Tseng is up in the reactor with the player Turk and a comatose Zack and Cloud when Hojo appears and examines them. At this point Tseng already knows about the 'top secret orders from the President'. He attempts to protest but is swiftly silenced by Hojo.

Professor Hojo
(Thought) So this is the soldier that fought Sephiroth and lived.
(Out loud) Interesting… Truly interesting. I can use him as a new research sample. You there. Go and get the manor ready.
Tseng
Yes, sir.
Professor Hojo
To think that there would ever come a day that I’d be able to do research in the mansion again. Heh heh heh.

Later in the same episode, Veld sends the Turks away so that they won't have to participate in the use of innocent survivors as human experiments.

Player
Sir. Are the people carried to the mansion going to be…
Veld
……
Reno
You’re not saying anything?
Rude
In other words…
Professor Hojo
Don’t worry. I’m not going to kill them. They’re going to become the test samples for my brilliant new ideas. Kuchi Can't you imagine the possibilities? Hee hee hee.
Tseng
Ugh…
Reno
……it’s going to look weird if all the townspeople disappear at once.
Veld
That’s been taken care of. Shin-Ra employees will rebuild this town and play out the parts of the villagers.
Tseng
……
Player
(Thought) They’d actually do that? That’s horrible…
Professor Hojo
Your opinions do not matter. Just get them into the mansion.
[Hojo slithers off.]
Rude
Sir…
Tseng
This is too dirty.
Reno
Can’t keep doing stuff like this, you know.
Veld
……all right. You don’t have to do anything.
Tseng
?!
Veld
I’ll handle everything here.

They may not know the exact nature of the science they are up against, but they know enough about what goes on in the Science department to know that it isn't somewhere anyone would go of their own free will. Tseng knows perfectly well that Aerith isn't going to be treated like a princess when he hands her over. He knows the President is searching for the Promised Land and believes Aerith holds the key. He knows. To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.

 

[Roger]

Also, Tseng does debrief the player Turk at some point in the next 5 years, Last Order tells us.

 

[Makoeyes987]

.... I fucking forgot they placed Tseng at the Nibelheim Incident in BC, wow. Huh...

But then again, CC shows that Cissnei wasn't aware of Zack's state as the escaped specimen. So, either CC retcons that depiction, or I dunno. But Cissnei definitely didn't know, and if she were the playable Turk for that experience, these events cannot exist concurrently.

I honestly think they retconned this, given Crisis Core's depiction of Zack and Cloud's escape. This doesn't make sense with what's shown to us in Crisis Core. And Crisis Core came afterwards.

 

[Odysseus]

As I recall, Square pretty much wrote off any inconsistencies with the Nibelheim incident between BC and CC as inaccurate reporting by the Turks. They're still meant to be congruent with each other, so at least its probably still the case that Tseng was there unless explicitly stated otherwise. It's their story after all, obviously they'll keep the details in consideration.

 

[Roger]

.... I fucking forgot they placed Tseng at the Nibelheim Incident in BC, wow. Huh...

But then again, CC shows that Cissnei wasn't aware of Zack's state as the escaped specimen. So, either CC retcons that depiction, or I dunno. But Cissnei definitely didn't know, and if she were the playable Turk for that experience, these events cannot exist concurrently.

I honestly think they retconned this, given Crisis Core's depiction of Zack and Cloud's escape. This doesn't make sense with what's shown to us in Crisis Core. And Crisis Core came afterwards.

I'm sure they retconned the heck out of it. But Nibelheim is not the only chapter where the writers of Before Crisis were less then infallible and perfect and made decisions in terms of depicting of events and charactisation that they might not hold to a decade and a half later.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cissnei isn't one of the main playable Turks in BC. As far as I know, you can't unlock her until episode 18 of BC, so she isn't present at the Nibelheim incident, which explains why she didn't know about Zack.

My headcanon is that Tseng deliberately chose her for that mission; he was banking on her disobeying her orders and letting Zack go. Athough, tbh, I doubt Cissnei would have been capable of capturing Zack on her own anyway. He IS a first class SOLDIER.

Anyway - can we all agree now that Tseng had a pretty good general idea of what would happen to Aerith once he took her in? He knew the Science Department wouldn't kill her - she's far too valuable - but she wasn't going to be treated like an honoured guest, either.

 

[Clement Rage]

No one is claiming they don't sometimes refuse to carry out orders. However, their defiance is never on a whim or because they simply don't like their orders. They do it when a conflict of loyalties arises, or when some point of greater duty or honour is at stake. These are usually of a highly personal nature, rather than abstractly moral. If Rufus Shinra was under that plate, they'd find a way to prevent it being dropped.

I think I agree, I just find it super unsympathetic. Although then we have the Rayleigh mission they just balked because Cloud called them out on it, or Wutai where they just couldn't be bothered hunting wanted terrorists because they were on vacation.

Would that grunt be likely to survive AVALANCHE? It's not so easy as that.

Re BC, the one thing we're waiting on is how 'HQ' ties into Fuhito's crew. That may clash, or it may not, we'll have to see.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So if, in Wutai, after having declared a truce with Cloud & Co and teamed up with them to defeat Don Corneo, the Turks had instantly gone into attack mode when ordered to do so, you'd have found that behaviour more sympathetic?

I think it's pretty obvious that the real reason Reno is refusing to fight them is because there's something dishonourable about turning on people who had your back five minutes earlier. Choosing not to fight them right there and then is the decent thing to do. He's not going to say that to Cloud & Co, though. He has an image to uphold. Saying "Not today, on vacation" is funny because only moments earlier he was hard at work on his so-called vacation sorting out Don Corneo.

 

[Clement Rage]

He'd already refused to fight when they first met in the bar, though. There's no giant clash of principles there, no 'conflict of loyalties', 'greater point of duty or loyalty' there. They just don't want to work on vacation.

I actually would find them more sympathetic if they cared enough about Shinra's enemies to not wriggle out of their orders, because then we could say they do what they do out of loyalty or principles. As is, we have to assume they dropped the pillar because they didn't care enough to wriggle out of it, as they very frequently do in other circumstances.

We'll see what happens in part two. I imagine Wutai will change.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

other circumstances

By jove, I do think you're almost there.

 

[Clement Rage]

The difference in these circumstances being...what?