SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion

[Odysseus]

I'll acknowledge it when I can actually play it

 

[oty]

Tbh, BC, atleast in Part 1, is much less used than any other Compilation title. The Avalanche HQ stuff can literally go into conflict with BC if they dont mind their steps. And it wouldnt be awful for them to not really use the 10year old - mobile phone game- only released in Japan.

What I find more interesting is that: either through loyalty or fear or whatever, and that's for us to speculate, the Remake presents the Turks as a group of people that obeys Shinra's orders. The end of the Remake hints that they are starting to question that. That's the story that they are going for. I dont find any incoherence with that, if you look at the Remake by itself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's their game, and their story. The writers of BC are not going to ignore the first entry and game of the Compilation. They are attached to it. Regardless of it's lack of global release and age, it matters to the creators, and it will continue to influence the overall setting of the FFVII universe. It just is one of those things.

The Turks aren't "questioning" the orders, they're merely venting at the shittiness of the situation. Reno, Rude and Tseng already had their "questioning" phase over Shinra, and their answer led them to stick it out for the sake of each other and their comrades they said goodbye to. Which has ultimately led them here. The Turks are not completely amoral; they realize what they're doing is shitty and immoral to anyone not part of their twisted world. Unfortunately, the priorities of what they wish to protect and the honor code they wish to uphold, force them to stick with what is in conflict with Cloud and ultimately, their conscience.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'll acknowledge it when I can actually play it

You can read (officially released in several languages) "Episode:Shin-Ra," which actually features characters from BC. =P

What I find more interesting is that: either through loyalty or fear or whatever, and that's for us to speculate, the Remake presents the Turks as a group of people that obeys Shinra's orders. The end of the Remake hints that they are starting to question that. That's the story that they are going for. I dont find any incoherence with that, if you look at the Remake by itself.

Even looking beyond the Remake itself, there's no incoherence. Just based on the original game and the Compilation, once it appeared that their patron, Rufus, might be dead, they had no interest in carrying out Shin-Ra(the company)'s orders any longer.

 

[Odysseus]

All I'm saying is they made damn sure everyone could play all the KH games before KH3 came out, and no such consideration was made for the remake. If knowing BC's story was necessary for understanding the remake, this would surely not be the case. A couple of characters being featured in a side story is not the same as being able to play the game.

 

[oty]

It's their game, and their story. The writers of BC are not going to ignore the first entry and game of the Compilation. They are attached to it. Regardless of it's lack of global release and age, it matters to the creators, and it will continue to influence the overall setting of the FFVII universe. It just is one of those things.

The Turks aren't "questioning" the orders, they're merely venting at the shittiness of the situation. Reno, Rude and Tseng already had their "questioning" phase over Shinra, and their answer led them to stick it out for the sake of each other and their comrades they said goodbye to. Which has ultimately led them here. The Turks are not completely amoral; they realize what they're doing is shitty and immoral to anyone not part of their twisted world. Unfortunately, the priorities of what they wish to protect and the honor code they wish to uphold, force them to stick with what is in conflict with Cloud and ultimately, their conscience.

Never said they wouldn't. The assassination attempt of the Prez is already a reference that they know BC exists.

And I do think that the office Turks scene is them venting. Absolutely. And I believe that was intended: the player now knows the Turks are discontent of what Shinra can ask them to do, and that in turn will lead to them not follow their orders so straight, as they will eventually do in the next installments, if it sticks close to the OG.

 

[Roger]

That's not how it works.

Rufus Shinra wants those Turks because he collects people who are loyal to him. He sees their value and they are quite simply, good at their job. Considering Rufus has been gunning for control of the company and has zero respect for the actual executives in power, he definitely wants his own crew of people he can trust and rely on. Tseng, Reno and Rude are loyal to a fault and Rufus/Shinra Inc don't have to actively threaten them to keep them in line. The deal has already been done, and their honor binds them to it. It motivates their loyalty and explains their actions. They're duty bound to comply with Shinra, even when they would rather not.

And Before Crisis isn't being downplayed in the Remake lol. Like, not at all. They obviously find it relevant enough to use this much, so they'll continue to use it and we'll probably see more of the characters from it in the future. Trying to sleep on it or pretend it never happened is just gonna continue to give it opportunities to surprise you

The Turks in Before Crisis aren't loyal to a fault. MOST of them abandoned Shinra Inc and Rufus, for that matter, altogether. It's a matter of time and place that Reno and Rude were with Tseng at the time instead of somewhere else or their lives would have been been like the Turks that were somewhere else. Loyalty to something beyond Veldt (who we don't see expecting anyone to kill millions on his behalf) didn't enter into it.

It's their game, and their story. The writers of BC are not going to ignore the first entry and game of the Compilation. They are attached to it. Regardless of it's lack of global release and age, it matters to the creators, and it will continue to influence the overall setting of the FFVII universe. It just is one of those things.

The Turks aren't "questioning" the orders, they're merely venting at the shittiness of the situation. Reno, Rude and Tseng already had their "questioning" phase over Shinra, and their answer led them to stick it out for the sake of each other and their comrades they said goodbye to. Which has ultimately led them here. The Turks are not completely amoral; they realize what they're doing is shitty and immoral to anyone not part of their twisted world. Unfortunately, the priorities of what they wish to protect and the honor code they wish to uphold, force them to stick with what is in conflict with Cloud and ultimately, their conscience.

The first entry is the original game Final Fantasy VII. They haven't found themselves married to every detail and motivation expressed in that game. Why does Before Crisis need to be treated like the bible instead?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

All I'm saying is they made damn sure everyone could play all the KH games before KH3 came out, and no such consideration was made for the remake. If knowing BC's story was necessary for understanding the remake, this would surely not be the case.

CC and Dirge have never been re-released. Would you include them in your assessment of BC, despite the Zack stuff, Deepground, G- and S-type SOLDIERs, etc.?

A couple of characters being featured in a side story is not the same as being able to play the game.

The events of BC were part of the "Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII Compilation" digest feature that came with AC Complete -- and that got an English release.

Providing just the story in a digest format is what was done with KH 358/2, as part of the KH HD 1.5 Remix. The game itself was not playable in that collection.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I never mentioned the Turks of BC being loyal to a fault. I said Tseng, Rude and Reno are loyal to a fault. So I'm not sure why you're mentioning them and their loyalty. Tseng's loyalty, admiration and overall closeness towards Verdot was the entire reason he personally put his life on the line and did all he could to cover up their escape and accept the consequences. It's why he personally wanted to fulfill his role and ensure that such a situation never happened again. Reno and Rude have no family, so their co-workers at Shinra are their family. They have no reason whatsoever to abandon the only world they know, and risk the lives of the only family they've ever known. They have perfectly valid and consistent reasons for sticking around. It's simply antithetical to the goals and morality of everyone else, which leads them into conflict with everyone else.

The first entry is the original game Final Fantasy VII. They haven't found themselves married to every detail and motivation expressed in that game. Why does Before Crisis need to be treated like the bible instead?

I don't think FFVII is technically part of the Compilation. The Compilation is the collection of works that spin off from FFVII. The OG is the OG which is the root of the Compilation, but it was not created as part of the Compilation itself. The first extent work spun off from FFVII is Before Crisis, hence it's importance. It served as the beginning of what came after, and the reason the writers are attached to their work is self evident. It's not treating it like the Bible, it's treating it like their own creative body of work they're proud of and attached to. Simple as that.

 

[Odysseus]

CC and Dirge have never been re-released. Would you include them in your assessment of BC, despite the Zack stuff, Deepground, "G- and S-types," etc.

Yes, I would. I don't think the compilation is inherently necessary to the FF7 Remake experience, nor do I expect them to remain beholden to its every detail. Square's smart enough to know a lot of players who never touched that stuff would be totally lost if the remake's story relied on all that prior knowledge.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, I would. I don't think the compilation is inherently necessary to the FF7 Remake experience, nor do I expect them to remain beholden to its every detail. Square's smart enough to know a lot of players who never touched that stuff would be totally lost if the remake's story relied on all that prior knowledge.

Who has said anything about being beholden to its every detail? This discussion began with you saying

I'll acknowledge it when I can actually play it

 

[Odysseus]

That was me agreeing with Roger.

Why does Before Crisis need to be treated like the bible instead?

Though to add tho that, if the remake doesn't rely on compilation knowledge (which it does not, so far) and BC has not been made available outside of an obscure, very incomplete retelling on a bluray special feature, I don't need to acknowledge it when considering the Turks' motivation in the remake.

So again, I'll acknowledge it when I can play it

 

[Makoeyes987]

.... But they called the Remake the most recent entry of the Compilation.

It carries all of Compilation's lore, setting, information and scenario pieces. While you don't need the Compilation to understand the Remake on it's face, to understand the nuance and details of it's universe, setting, and specific scenario parts, the Compilation is intrinsic. The Compilation is highly relevant to the story and functions by giving it even wider context and understanding. They're reprinting the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania for that very reason. And Nojima said they went through each of the parts of the story to contemplate what parts of the Compilation and its characters could fit in each part of the Remake and use them accordingly.

In fact, the very reference of S and G type SOLDIERs by Hojo requires knowledge of Crisis Core to get the implication. Reference to SOLDIER degradation by President Shinra, likewise relies on knowledge of the Crisis Core phenomenon. Knowing who Kunsel even is, and why Cloud summarily freaked out, relies on understanding Crisis Core. Before Crisis gives context to who AVALANCHE is, why Shinra is wary of them, and just why they have militarized capabilities and man-power.

When you analyze the Turks, their characters, their motivations, and their feelings, yes. The game that featured them as playable main characters factors highly into that reading. Especially since the writers use it as such. It's been referenced in every Compilation entry that's succeeded it, including the novellas, and especially the same novella that gave us the characters Kyrie, and Leslie. The novel that's called a Turks side story.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm not saying the compilation is totally irrelevant, I'm just saying it's not so important that Square made sure everyone could play/watch it again. The only compilation entry still extremely readily available is advent children, which can be digitally purchased easily. The rest are locked on ancient hardware that much of Remake's audience will not have easy access to.

The relevance the compilation has had do far is in the form of minor lore details and easter eggs. The only big thing that can't be hand waved is the scene at the end that shot for shot recreates a scene from crisis core, but even that isn't strictly tied to the rest of that game's plot.

Obviously the way the Turks are written in BC will influence how they're written now, but until I can play the game, I have no reason to take it in to serious consideration. They haven't given me cause to think the specifics are important, by way of denying me knowledge of them. Most casual fans probably don't even know the obscure 16 year old phone game exists. If they don't want me to know the details. then I'm not going to acknowledge them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That was me agreeing with Roger.

When you said that, Roger's only statement about BC was:

... Before Crisis made mistakes that could be ignored or at least downplayed in the Remake.

Which is a far cry from the comment I replied to.

Though to add tho that, if the remake doesn't rely on compilation knowledge (which it does not, so far) and BC has not been made available outside of an obscure, very incomplete retelling on a bluray special feature, I don't need to acknowledge it when considering the Turks' motivation in the remake.

Not requiring absolute knowledge of Compilation minutiae is not the same as pretending it doesn't exist in a conversation and acting like it provides no possible answer for questions of motivation when someone brings it up. =|

(Especially when the producer of the remake has said that the Compilation's worldbuilding remains part of the current project ...)

Frankly, that's just being intellectually dishonest with the people engaging with you -- especially given you already do have this knowledge.

I would expect way better of you, man.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The novellas are also able to still be accessed, and I'd argue they're just as relevant, if not more so in this case.

The Turks side story uses the characterization and established facts from Before Crisis, which is subsequently utilized in referencing and depicting the Turks in the Remake. So through that thread right there, Before Crisis directly impacts the Turks and their characterization here. It's a serious consideration because it's a serious consideration in anything referencing the Turks and their history. The specifics of why Reno, Rude and Tseng are fiercely loyal to Shinra to the point they go against their own personal morals and carry such psychological scars, is clearly depicted in Before Crisis. It sets up their life and direction.

Same goes for Case of Shinra, too. If you ignore it, then you get questions as to why Reno and Rude decide to follow orders they clearly know are bad

 

[Odysseus]

I feel like we got way off course from what was actually being discussed. I don't really care if you use BC to justify the Turks behavior in dropping the plate. The idea that their hands are tied because of the deal made at the end of BC is probably correct, until otherwise stated. I just don't like the idea that all this knowledge from the compilation is absolutely necessary when so much of it isn't really available for a lot of people. Its like square is gate-keeping their own story that way.

My original comment was mostly just a joke, since I'm still a bitter little whiner about the fact I can't play this stupid cellphone game despite how integral it is to understanding the Turks. Then you took it seriously so I felt the need to defend my position.

The novellas are also able to still be accessed, and I'd argue they're just as relevant, if not more so in this case.

How they handled the Novels is how I wish they handled BC. They knew nobody would know Leslie Kyle or Kyrie, so they just translated the book. BC is on the periphery of all this material, but the whole of it is still region locked and technology locked.

I would expect way better of you, man.

Sorry man. I'll try to be better.

 

[LNK]

While you don't need the Compilation to understand the Remake on it's face, to understand the nuance and details of it's universe, setting, and specific scenario parts, the Compilation is intrinsic

This is exactly how I feel. With that said, it seems like, we don't need all of the compilation just yet. Only two things from the compilation take place before the timeline of the remake.

 

[Odysseus]

I was thinking that one of the reasons we haven't gotten a compilation collection yet is because Square doesn't want to spoil things for new players by way of handing them all this extraneous material.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The idea that their hands are tied because of the deal made at the end of BC is probably correct, until otherwise stated. I just don't like the idea that all this knowledge from the compilation is absolutely necessary when so much of it isn't really available for a lot of people. Its like square is gate-keeping their own story that way.

It's sadly what happens when you partake of a decade spanning series of works that are all interconnected and part of the same universe. The writer's feel it's available enough that people have subsequently been able to understand and know the jist of what these entries are, and that's apparently enough for them to roll with. Likewise, their attempts at re-contextualizing and re-releasing information and narrative points based on those works are their ways of keeping it relevant.

Who knows, maybe they'll one day remake Before Crisis and it'll be so completely different and re-re-contextualized, it'll be like an entirely new entry.

 

[Roger]

I never mentioned the Turks of BC being loyal to a fault. I said Tseng, Rude and Reno are loyal to a fault. So I'm not sure why you're mentioning them and their loyalty.

Tseng, Rude and Reno are of a part of the Turks of Before Crisis. They are not some inheritely different kind of being. Like I said, the only thing that seperates Rude and Reno feom Tseng's other underlings at the time is what missions they happened to be on.

Tseng's loyalty, admiration and overall closeness towards Verdot was the entire reason he personally put his life on the line and did all he could to cover up their escape and accept the consequences.

Veldt's entire characterisations that allows us to believe his men would stick to him over Shinra rests on being the kind of guy that wouldn't countenance the kind of tragedy like what he witnessed at Kalm be repeated. Unlike Tseng in Remake who does exactly that.

Reno and Rude have no family, so their co-workers at Shinra are their family.

like good old whatshisface whom he'll miss so.

They have no reason whatsoever to abandon the only world they know, and risk the lives of the only family they've ever known. They have perfectly valid and consistent reasons for sticking around.

Not killing millions is a reason. Not subjecting a girl who they've known and protected for many years to rape and torture is a reason. Working under the person they actually believe in (Veldt) instead of the scum of the earth (Heidegger) is a reason. Living their lives alongside their other coworkers in the Turks again, their supposed family is a reason.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Odysseus
If it makes you feel any better, BC isn't available for anyone in Japan to play anymore either. Stuff like that is probably a big part of why the 10th Anniversary Ultimania is getting re-released.

 

[looneymoon]

To be fair, I think remake is meant to drum up interest in the Compilation titles as much as the OG.

I think the interim between part 1 and 2 is a pretty good time to see ports of DoC and CC at least.

I always hoped that BC would get something like the Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories ps2 treatment. Or at least outsourced to be compatible for modern smartphones Its kind of weird to think my android phone is powerful enough to play Crisis Core on an emulator, but Before Crisis isn't available anywhere.

 

[Odysseus]

Personally I'd want an anime series a la last order. I have many misgivings with BC, but that art style is great.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, there is that fan remake of BC. XD Apparently it's pretty solid.