SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Shinra may be dumb, but it knows how to put a leash on their dogs.

Yeah, they assembled this elite crew of cuttthroats that'll torture, kidnap, murder anyone close to you if you go against them, that's why their employees know to stay in in line.

Oh no, wait; That's the Turks. It doesn't really work when the Turks themselves are the ones that aren't willing to do the dirty work anymore.

Also, we are talking about Tifa here. She got her life ruined by Shinra, twice btw, and still didnt wanna punch anyone to death. She expresses that Shinra not only has good people there, but also admits it makes people's life easier. I mean, how we can take all of this and not expect her to forgive the Turks for something they clearly wanna redeem themselves for?

Again, forgiveness and smiling at recalling their happy memories are different things. Her history with Reno isn't something I see weighing easy on her.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It always struck me as weird too, but I came to find it endearing that Tifa, who herself carried heavy weight on her heart, could chuckle to herself that someone else she knows from "the world before" seems to be doing alright.

Honestly, it's not much different from Aerith's grief over Tseng when she thought he was dying. Precisely no one would have thought it callous of her to not care that the guy who kidnapped and slapped her was going to bleed out in the temple, but no one thought it too ludicrous of her to feel as she did.
 

dz

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Why wasn't the plate-drop the line the Turks could not cross, the order they found they couldn't bring themselves to carry out? It's an interesting question, by which I mean it's a question that helps to make them interesting characters. They've been doing bad stuff for so long that the difference between the platedrop and all the previous things they've done in the line of duty is merely quantitive, not qualitative.

It does make the characters interesting to me, though I'd argue it's also a qualitative difference in that many of their previous victims would have had motive for killing: terrorists, enemies of Shinra, etc. Whereas the casualties here were the people - including innocent civilians. But I get your sentiment - they've a history of doing dirty work, they're in deep already. The similarity is that their role is to complete the mission, they are trained to accept necessary casualties as a result, just never on this scale before.

Reno's turning back on orders in OG FFVII could be motivated many ways - perhaps he does just pick and choose orders, but I think he knows which orders he can and should pick and choose from whilst also keeping his job (and, leading from that, life) - it may depend on what is being asked, and who's asking. The examples of Reno defying orders (and Rude following suit) in OG Wutai sidequest and Midgar tunnels were all post-plate drop, and perhaps that increased his disaffection for following Shinra orders. .

I've always suspected that the plate drop was an order that couldn't have been turned down without a price that would cost them their jobs and probably lives, and your headcanon about President Shinra is fitting. In Remake, Tseng suggests that someone else would have done it if they didn't, it leaves open the question that if the Turks made themselves replaceable by refusing the mission, would that leave them replaced permanently. The Turks have their own agenda to follow, one that requires that Shinra continues to find them useful. I think Reno and Rude (and probably Tseng) each thought the order bullshit, but the consequence of not following this order would have probably been even worse (to their continued existence as Turks and period).

FFVII has so many grey areas, on one hand, the Turks are working for Shinra, they're protecting the president etc, against those branded as terrorists. They are officially sanctioned. They know they have to do bad things some times, but it could be framed as being for a greater good. Or at least that's how it might appear until they are in too deep to get out. Rude acknowledges he is a good person who does bad things during his lead up to fight with cloud for the first time. Reno echoes this, when later in the helicopter scene he says that it's a little late to be growing a conscience, showing his self awareness that their job involves doing bad things, and they are deep in already. And sure, the Turks will likely have been chosen for a predilection for being good at doing bad.

I find the Turks' plate-drop experience draws some parallels with AVALANCHE members' around the original bombing mission and casualties that ensued. Admittedly in the latter, mass civilian casualties were not part of the plan, though some Shinra casualties must have been expected, and they didn't know at the time that Shinra had a hand in the casualties that ensued. Barret in particular is portrayed as having a big heart, but that leads him to be willing to do whatever it takes for what he believes is the greater good. It's my own headcanon here, but I think drawing from the guilt over these morally grey bombing missions would pave the way for our player characters to be able to relate, empathise, and put things behind them, in a way that would have been more difficult if they had a clean sheet (and of course having bigger bad guys helps, in the enemy of my enemy is my friend way).

In Remake, Aeris saved Reno's life and recognised Rude as "not a bad person" - admittedly that was before he pushed the button (with the help of some whisper plot armor) to complete his partner's mission - would she say the same about him afterwards? She's someone who has unusual insight/foresight, I would bet her appraisal wouldn't have changed much. She has had a complex relationship with the Turks, who seem to be a buffer between her and the worst of Shinra's research goals - in a similar way the Turks also have a complex relationship with Shinra. If anyone should have a grudge against Shinra, it's Aerith, who spent so much of her childhood with her bedroom a Shinra cell, her mother being mortally wounded whilst trying to escape the facility. Yet even after plate drop, she says "the Shinra Electric Power Company isn't the real enemy. It started with them sure... but I promise you there's a much bigger threat" Aerith notably doesn't hold back when it comes to Sephiroth as being "wrong".

Why didn't Reno push the button when he had a clear chance? Did he have a conflict in his mind? Did he get drawn into a fight with AVALANCHE for personal payback, to delay his mission, both?
Rude's mad dash to push the button - what motivated that - to carry out his mission as a Turk, to recover his partner's failure, both? It looked to like his success was heavily facilitated by the whispers keeping destiny's broad strokes on track.
Rude emerges, effectively a hero to his employer, completing the mission and rescuing his partner. But a villain from the more objective perspective of toppling a plate to kill many civilians in order to frame some eco-terrorists for the crime.

The plate drop is objectively really bad. It's meant to be - we got insights into the lives of Midgar citizens intimately through the sidequests, that should make it hurt all the more. I get that many people won't see beyond the sheer scale of the atrocity. But part of what I liked about the OG and continue to like in the new one is exploring the human elements through the grey, even dark, dark grey areas. In Remake, if our player characters follow similar arcs to the original and later find ways to work with the Turks (albeit begrudgingly) for common goals, find ways to move past what's done, I'll find that interesting too.
 
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oty

Pro Adventurer
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ex-soldier boy
Yeah, they assembled this elite crew of cuttthroats that'll torture, kidnap, murder anyone close to you if you go against them, that's why their employees know to stay in in line.

Oh no, wait; That's the Turks. It doesn't really work when the Turks themselves are the ones that aren't willing to do the dirty work anymore.



Again, forgiveness and smiling at recalling their happy memories are different things. Her history with Reno isn't something I see weighing easy on her.
I definitely don't think the Turks at the beggining of the Remake were already a disobedient force inside Shinra. Hell, even Reno, the most disobedient one, only has one kind of instance where doesnt follow along his orders. And he was badly hurt. The office Turks scene, besides expanding the characters, clearly shows that Reno and Rude aren't really used to distrusting and questioning Shinra's orders. I hope some light is shed upon the beggining of the Turks in the next installments (maybe with Avalanche HQ?). But I'm pretty sure that, if you are a Turk, Shinra has plenty of ways to threaten you. I mean, your life is your Turk life. That already is a pretty big leash. And I think that's the catch: they introduced the idea that the Turks are now feeling guilty over their actions, and are discontent with some orders they are given. Already a pretty good case of them beggining to care less
and less about orders.

And yeah...Tifa"recalling their happy memories" feels a bit uncalled for, and maybe that's something that they will try to "fix" with the Remake. At the end of the final installment, Turks can actively help in securing Midgar, and by actively I mean showcasing it (they were responsible for some evacuation in the OG,) or something. But, leaving aside speculation, I feel the sentiment is valid. If Tifa was able to 100% forgive the Turks, I think her memories of them wouldnt dwell on the Platefall.

And, I'm pretty sure that line is also meant to reference Reno's japanese speech pattern. I think he always ends his phrases with "yo" or something?
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I definitely don't think the Turks at the beggining of the Remake were already a disobedient force inside Shinra. Hell, even Reno, the most disobedient one, only has one kind of instance where doesnt follow along his orders. And he was badly hurt. The office Turks scene, besides expanding the characters, clearly shows that Reno and Rude aren't really used to distrusting and questioning Shinra's orders. I hope some light is shed upon the beggining of the Turks in the next installments (maybe with Avalanche HQ?). But I'm pretty sure that, if you are a Turk, Shinra has plenty of ways to threaten you. I mean, your life is your Turk life. That already is a pretty big leash.

I'm not saying Shinra has absolutely no resources to threaten them with but being Shinra's clandestine kidnappers and enforces is very much the Turks job, it is not someone else's job. If the Turks are only doing because they felt their lives and loved ones were being threatened, then Shinra has a real redudancy problem, maybe they shouldn't be paying Rude, Reno and Tseng their monster salaries given that it's not what interests them nor why they are working there. Maybe they really honestly should be replaced by the people that Shinra already has at their disposal that are actually ruthless enough and given the Turks' fearfulness, at least as good at the Turks' job if not better, then the Turks are. Those people don't really exist though, the buck stops with Tseng, for the most part, and the Remake portrays him as a true believer.

SE should portray their displeasure as a new development, not a known point of fact for over a decade now (like Before Crisis)
 

oty

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ex-soldier boy
I think that's where it gets tricky. By what we've seen in the Remake, the Turks seemingly trusted Shinra, and are now questioning their orders. If that enters in conflict with the past continuity, I think it still remains to be seen. Specially if we are talking about BC, conveniently the more left out of the Compilation titles, and maybe even in conflict with it?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Maybe they really honestly should be replaced by the people that Shinra already has at their disposal that are actually ruthless enough and given the Turks' fearfulness, at least as good at the Turks' job if not better, then the Turks are. Those people don't really exist though, the buck stops with Tseng, for the most part, and the Remake portrays him as a true believer.

Maybe it's just my familiarity with BC, LO, CC, and Episode:Shin-Ra informing my reading here, but I saw Tseng more as going through the motions and almost exhausted past the point of letting himself care.
 
That's more or less the same impression I got, Tres. Exhausted is exactly the right word. He's the kind of duty bound person who will work himself into the grave. My impression of him through the Compilation is that he's a compulsive over-thinker. He wants to know all the facts and take everything into consideration before he makes a decision. He's Mr Cautious. Because he's the one who's always telling the others to slow down, think things through, keep a cool head, etc..., it's all the more shocking when he loses it in Junon and starts kicking the shit out of the corrupt doctor. We've come to expect that from Elena, Reno and Rude, but not Tseng.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I don't think Tifa is quite so soft hearted as that. When Sephiroth destroyed her previous hometown, her reaction was to grab his sword and go after him.

Aeris has known Tseng all her life, it's not quite the same.

Once you bring in the Compilation, you bring in all the times the Turks have previously found ways to disobey orders they didn't like, ranging from pretending they didn't receive their orders, wriggling out of them on a technicality, outright defying them, saying 'Sorry I failed', and so on. Even in the very short time we see them in the remake, Reno flakes out on his orders on Aeris in the church and says 'screw this, I'm going home'.

If they weren't punished any of the other times, it becomes extremely difficult to say for this one time, obviously they must have had no choice. They don't act like people under stress or pressure, they're barely taking the assault seriously at the start.

If they really didn't want to drop the plate, they could have found a way not to. The obvious one would be 'sorry boss, AVALANCHE were just too tough, look at these wounds to prove it'.

Why they did it would be an interesting question, but we don't get that. We get 'they didn't want to do it' and are left to make up reasons why they actually did it instead of not doing it like they wanted. Why they did the bad thing is a pretty important part of a redemption arc, and we don't get it.

I read Reno's Wutai decision as being 'Elena's still tied up, Rude is too far away to help (most of his attacks are short range), and my back is to a cliff with nowhere to run. If I start a fight, We'll just lose again'

Two grunts run in and expect the Turks to drop what they're doing and chase Corneo. Reno doesn't understand the rush. They'll catch Corneo in their own time. This isn't really refusing orders so much as refusing to be ordered around by a couple of troopers much lower down on the command totem pole. And they do indeed deal effectively with Corneo, in their own time, in their own way.

Give or take those troopers' lives, but I guess that's not important.
 
He doesn't say "Screw this, I'm going home," he says, "Partner's got it." Those are two very different things. Even you would have to admit that the Remake portrays Rude and Reno as a very close-knit working partnership. Cloud has just beaten Reno to a pulp and was on the brink of killing him. He can barely walk. It makes sense to let Rude take over. Reno's in no state to pursue, but if he'd stayed back and sent the grunts after Cloud you'd have criticised him for being so cavalier with their lives.

I read Reno's Wutai decision as being 'Elena's still tied up, Rude is too far away to help (most of his attacks are short range), and my back is to a cliff with nowhere to run. If I start a fight, We'll just lose again'
With all due respect, that's the lens through which you prefer to view them.

If the grunts in Wutai had listened to the Turks, instead of rushing off like headless chickens, they wouldn't be dead. That's on them. It's not Reno's job to save the grunts from the consequences of their own stupidity. Now, I will admit Reno could have used more conciliatory language. But it's not his job to coax morons into seeing sense either.

I'm trying to remember where the Turks flake on their orders in BC for gratuitous reasons, but as far as I can remember, normally they only defy orders when they're trying to save Zack or Veld.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Your lens is no different than mine, Licorice.

They didn't rush off, they asked for help from the Department whose job is to hunt fugitives. Who have both Corneo and AVALANCHE on the list of people they're supposed to hunt.

TTM@ The difference is a super long history before and after of ducking around orders they don't like, it's so very dicey to me that this one time we have to assume (and we do have to assume, because there is no suggestion of coercion or any consequences of disobedience other than someone else being ordered to it) they totally had no choice, unlike every other time they've been asked to do something they didn't want to do.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
TTM@ The difference is a super long history before and after of ducking around orders they don't like, it's so very dicey to me that this one time we have to assume (and we do have to assume, because there is no suggestion of coercion or any consequences of disobedience other than someone else being ordered to it) they totally had no choice, unlike every other time they've been asked to do something they didn't want to do.

Yeah cause the ending of Before Crisis didn't happen or anything, right?

There's your "suggestion of coercion or any consequences of disobedience."
 
Your lens is no different than mine, Licorice.
I think it is different, because I think I see them as their creators intended them to be seen.

They didn't rush off, they asked for help from the Department whose job is to hunt fugitives. Who have both Corneo and AVALANCHE on the list of people they're supposed to hunt.

The script says
Reno: Right now we're off duty and can't run off to save your butts.
Shinra Soldier: We know you're off duty, but...
Reno: If you knew that, then don't bother us! Lookin' at you is makin' me sober.
Shinra Soldier: But you all have orders from headquarters to look for him too!
There is a pause. Reno says nothing.
Shinra Soldier: All right, that's it! We'll get him without any help from the Turks, just you see!
The two soldiers run out. One comes back momentarily.
Shinra Soldier: And don't think that headquarters isn't going to hear about this!!

They asked for help. Reno effectively said, "Not now, today we're off duty", and the soldier effectively said, "Fine, be like that, we'll do it without you, and we'll report you to HQ too." You're assuming that it was necessary to run off and chase Corneo right that very minute. Reno deemed it unnecessary. Elena decided the soldiers were right and went to help them, and because of that, Reno and Rude temporarily came back on duty to rescue her. Maybe if she'd listened to him, things wouldn't have gone so badly wrong.


TTM@ The difference is a super long history before and after of ducking around orders they don't like, it's so very dicey to me that this one time we have to assume (and we do have to assume, because there is no suggestion of coercion or any consequences of disobedience other than someone else being ordered to it) they totally had no choice, unlike every other time they've been asked to do something they didn't want to do.

You keep calling it "orders they don't like", but these weren't just orders they didn't like, these were orders to kill their father-figure and orders to capture and return Zack to Hojo. And they didn't just "duck" them; the decision to defy orders was preceeded by considerable soul-searching. And they were not then so intimately associated, in the mind of the Board, with Rufus. Rufus is already (justifiably) viewed with deep suspicion by his father, and he went out of his way to save these three from execution. The situation of the Turks at the time of the plate drop is more precarious than it ever was before or ever will be after.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
These are the consequences of the generic mook bad guys getting really popular and needing to make them more likable as a result. Now they have a history of disobeying orders that conflict with their morals, but still have to commit the atrocities they did originally for the plot to work.

Hey, at least they felt bad, and now Tseng is such a swell guy he didn't slap Aerith. The Turks aren't so bad, seeeeeee?
 
Well, quite.
It's an interesting phenomenon. I mean, one can see how Cloud, Aerith, Tifa et al could capture the imagination despite being blocky sprites, but I often wonder how the Turks became so popular even before ACC and Crisis Core. Reno has always been a fan favourite, but, while he has some good lines in the OG, he's not exactly a charmer. I do find it fascinating that the game makers have allowed these characters to grow into what the fans perceive them to be.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
That's one of the more interesting aspects of FF7's extended canon. The characters all morph to fit the way people saw them. Whether that be emo cloud, or nice boi Turks, Zack's entire character... whether you like it or not, the compilation was definitely for the fans.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
These are the consequences of the generic mook bad guys getting really popular and needing to make them more likable as a result. Now they have a history of disobeying orders that conflict with their morals, but still have to commit the atrocities they did originally for the plot to work.

Hey, at least they felt bad, and now Tseng is such a swell guy he didn't slap Aerith. The Turks aren't so bad, seeeeeee?

That about sums it up.

I do think there's a hole in their story now, though. If they don't dive into why they did these things in the first place, you can't do a proper redemption arc, because you can't demonstrate the change.
 

oty

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ex-soldier boy
I don't get that at all lmao

Does somehow making changes to a characterization because of his popularity automatically make it bad? I didn't see an inconsistency at all from what the Remake presented. Maybe the problem is the characterization itself for some people :mon:
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
No, but if your characterisation establishes 'we really really don't want to do X' and then the characters go on to do X, 'why did you do the thing you really really didn't want to do' is a fair question.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Well, quite.
It's an interesting phenomenon. I mean, one can see how Cloud, Aerith, Tifa et al could capture the imagination despite being blocky sprites, but I often wonder how the Turks became so popular even before ACC and Crisis Core. Reno has always been a fan favourite, but, while he has some good lines in the OG, he's not exactly a charmer.

Yaoi.

Pretty sure it's yaoi.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
So again, are we just pretending Before Crisis never happened or doesn't exist now?

Because there's your answer.

The Turks cannot disobey their orders. They didn't quit. They stuck around and nearly were executed for their last attempts at subverting Shinra's orders, and Rufus Shinra bailed them out.

And for that reason, along with Rufus hiding the fact that Verdot and Elfe are alive out there, they all do their jobs, no matter what. Verdot, Elfe and the other Before Crisis Turks are allowed a normal life and their records listing them as KIA, thanks to Tseng, Reno, and Rude keeping their heads down, doing their job, and being Rufus Shinra's go to pose in case he needs shit done. They owe Rufus a debt of gratitude, and it comes with a price. They have to remain loyal and no longer fuck shit up anymore, otherwise bad things happen to the one's closest to them.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
So again, are we just pretending Before Crisis never happened or doesn't exist now?

Because there's your answer.

The Turks cannot disobey their orders. They didn't quit. They stuck around and nearly were executed for their last attempts at subverting Shinra's orders, and Rufus Shinra bailed them out.

And for that reason, along with Rufus hiding the fact that Verdot and Elfe are alive out there, they all do their jobs, no matter what. Verdot, Elfe and the other Before Crisis Turks are allowed a normal life and their records listing them as KIA, thanks to Tseng, Reno, and Rude keeping their heads down, doing their job, and being Rufus Shinra's go to pose in case he needs shit done. They owe Rufus a debt of gratitude, and it comes with a price. They have to remain loyal and no longer fuck shit up anymore, otherwise bad things happen to the one's closest to them.

If they cannot disobey orders under threat of death and the death of their loved ones, them being Veldt, the other Turks and Elfe, then we are back to the idea that Shinra has people at their disposal that are better at the Turks' job then the Turks. The Turks are Shinra's personal hunt, murder, threaten and kidnap squad. Making the identity of an undesirable known to them however is not some utter 100% absolute deathsentence, Tifa and Barret are still walking around for instance, and Elfe herself survived years of conflict with the Turks. Why do these people never come into the story proper? Because if we see them, they'll become popular too and we'll need a third team of baddies that would kill their loved ones to get them to do bad stuff?

OR and just hear me out here, maybe the Turks work for Shinra because they are willing to work for Shinra and yes, Before Crisis made mistakes that could be ignored or at least downplayed in the Remake.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
That's not how it works.

Rufus Shinra wants those Turks because he collects people who are loyal to him. He sees their value and they are quite simply, good at their job. Considering Rufus has been gunning for control of the company and has zero respect for the actual executives in power, he definitely wants his own crew of people he can trust and rely on. Tseng, Reno and Rude are loyal to a fault and Rufus/Shinra Inc don't have to actively threaten them to keep them in line. The deal has already been done, and their honor binds them to it. It motivates their loyalty and explains their actions. They're duty bound to comply with Shinra, even when they would rather not.

And Before Crisis isn't being downplayed in the Remake lol. Like, not at all. They obviously find it relevant enough to use this much, so they'll continue to use it and we'll probably see more of the characters from it in the future. Trying to sleep on it or pretend it never happened is just gonna continue to give it opportunities to surprise you :monster:
 
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