The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That supremely thin ice/living on borrowed time-Rufus's honor/reputation being at stake combo we've been talking about.
SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 15 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Easily got around by 'failing', even if it was true.
Nothing in the remake indicates any of that. They don't act at all as though they're under any external pressure or that Rufus is depending on them, Heidegger and Prez don't act like there is any doubts about their loyalty. When Tseng is talking about justifications, he doesn't mention any of that. They could easily have put in reference to how more failure would not be tolerated if they really wanted to. And given that they can't expect most players to have detailed knowledge of a mobile phone game from 2004, if that was the conclusion we were supposed to draw, they really dropped the ball. We get so many cutaways about the Turks' feelings about the pillar, how come none of this ever comes up in any of them?
Even in BC, the Execs genuinely seem to believe that killing Veld proved their loyalty, and Rufus talks only about how they owe him, not how he's staking his reputation on them or anything. Rufus has already been caught red handed trying to assassinate his father and funding terrorism. Despite that, Prez considered Rufus important enough to hold off on kill orders because the Turks had him captive, Rufus is not at risk here. He wants the Turks loyal to him, which doesn't factor into the pillar drop, since it's not like he ordered them to do it. Presumably, he'd approve if they balked.
Threat to Rufus or his rep is very dubious, given what he's already got away with.
Thin ice or pressure going forward is not mentioned, referenced, or hinted at by anyone, not even in BC.
But I guess we'll disagree on that.
Nothing in the remake indicates any of that. They don't act at all as though they're under any external pressure or that Rufus is depending on them, Heidegger and Prez don't act like there is any doubts about their loyalty. When Tseng is talking about justifications, he doesn't mention any of that. They could easily have put in reference to how more failure would not be tolerated if they really wanted to. And given that they can't expect most players to have detailed knowledge of a mobile phone game from 2004, if that was the conclusion we were supposed to draw, they really dropped the ball. We get so many cutaways about the Turks' feelings about the pillar, how come none of this ever comes up in any of them?
Even in BC, the Execs genuinely seem to believe that killing Veld proved their loyalty, and Rufus talks only about how they owe him, not how he's staking his reputation on them or anything. Rufus has already been caught red handed trying to assassinate his father and funding terrorism. Despite that, Prez considered Rufus important enough to hold off on kill orders because the Turks had him captive, Rufus is not at risk here. He wants the Turks loyal to him, which doesn't factor into the pillar drop, since it's not like he ordered them to do it. Presumably, he'd approve if they balked.
Threat to Rufus or his rep is very dubious, given what he's already got away with.
Thin ice or pressure going forward is not mentioned, referenced, or hinted at by anyone, not even in BC.
But I guess we'll disagree on that.
atfour
Rookie Adventurer
Clement Rage and Roger, thank you for touching upon exactly my points of complaint about depiction of Turks in Remake. One could uncover plenty of implied context to justify their behaviour but in my opinion they are just not written very well in the department of pillar drop segment. It gives the impression that the scenario really wanted to incorporate the Compilation continuity and make Turks more sympathetic but it didn't go very well for me. In the end, I felt even more, uh, estranged from them than in the OG, much as I love post-FF7 Turks and enjoy writing them.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
It doesn't need to be referenced in the remake for us to consider it. It didn't come up in the original game either, but that shouldn't have impeded us from retroactively folding it into our acknowledgement of their characterization.
Not so easily if the result is their deaths in combat (it's not as though Avalanche wasn't fighting to kill); their executions; and/or discrediting Rufus, who had convinced the other board members that losing the Turks would be both foolish and "the company's greatest loss."
Clem said:
It comes up explicitly in Episode:Shin-Ra of "On the Way to A Smile." It's part of the Compilation of FFVII that we've been assured several times is baked into the foundations of the remake -- and which we very much can see in the remake in multiple places.
Clem said:
They were going to execute them regardless until Rufus stepped in as their death sentences were being declared.
Clem said:
They are sincerely loyal to him and don't want to let him down. I don't need him to bring it up to know how they feel about making him look bad for convincing the other executives that it would be the company's greatest mistake to get rid of them.
Rufus asked them to "show your gratitude to me in your work." Obviously he couldn't have anticipated his father ordering such a heinous task as killing 1/8th of the city ... but the point remains, he didn't ask them to show their gratitude by sucking at their jobs on purpose.
Clem said:
He's not physically at risk, no, but his burgeoning influence and being taken seriously are.
Clem said:
I'm perfectly willing to do that. Honestly. I just can't seem to let myself ignore your insistence that there's no feasible explanation for carrying out this order they clearly didn't like.
The inconsistencies in the Compilation regarding the Turks' sense of conscience, feeling guilty about Sector 7 despite carrying out that order, etc. didn't start only recently with the remake. It has long been here for us to reconcile with the original game, and I think we would be foolish, frankly, to not try answering our questions with what has been provided to us.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I agree that the writers dropped the ball and missed an opportunity to make the Turks' position more explicit. But it has always been the habit of this game, and SE games in general, to hint and allude rather than say something plainly, and to say too little rather than too much. They're not in the business of spelling things out for us. That's just their writing style - or maybe it's just Nojima's writing style.
Clem, you say that they "frequently wriggle out of orders because they don't like them", but I cannot think of any instance of this aside from the Wutai sidequest, when they refuse to tackle Avalanche for the trivial reason that they are on vacation. Every other time they "wriggle out of orders", as you describe it, they have compelling reasons to do so, usually, as I said before, of a personal nature and/or due to conflicted loyalties. If you can think of another occassion where they "wriggle out of orders" for a trivial reason, I'd love to hear it.
I mean, the entire theme of Before Crisis was "conflicted loyalties". On the one hand, they have their personal feelings and wishes, and on the other hand they have the quasi-military job that they freely signed up for, knowing perfectly well what it entailed. Sometimes this is played seriously and sometimes, as in the beginning of the Wutai subquest, for laughs.
it's no easy feat to create a set of corporate assassins who are goofy yet intimidating, brutal yet beloved by the fandom. Nojima and the writing team managed to pull this off. I think we should cut them some slack.
Clem, you say that they "frequently wriggle out of orders because they don't like them", but I cannot think of any instance of this aside from the Wutai sidequest, when they refuse to tackle Avalanche for the trivial reason that they are on vacation. Every other time they "wriggle out of orders", as you describe it, they have compelling reasons to do so, usually, as I said before, of a personal nature and/or due to conflicted loyalties. If you can think of another occassion where they "wriggle out of orders" for a trivial reason, I'd love to hear it.
I mean, the entire theme of Before Crisis was "conflicted loyalties". On the one hand, they have their personal feelings and wishes, and on the other hand they have the quasi-military job that they freely signed up for, knowing perfectly well what it entailed. Sometimes this is played seriously and sometimes, as in the beginning of the Wutai subquest, for laughs.
it's no easy feat to create a set of corporate assassins who are goofy yet intimidating, brutal yet beloved by the fandom. Nojima and the writing team managed to pull this off. I think we should cut them some slack.
I don't remember BC very well, but I thought the Turks were one of the best things in the Remake. So, maybe it's inconsistent with their portrayal with BC, maybe it isn't, but the Remake showed quite clearly the kind of people the Shinra execs were. Also, given that even Reeve who at least had a seat with the execs couldn't dissuade the plate drop decision, who were the Turks to say no?
If anything, their situation makes them more relatable. I don't know about folks here, but to me, it's not that uncommon in a corporate environment to feel that sense of "this is BS and goes against my principles but I'll do it anyway because... what else can I say?". Of course, nothing that close to the extent of dropping a plate, but I think we can allow fiction to dramatize things?
Besides, I like the current setup. It'll be interesting to see the contrast in attitudes when Elena, who wasn't part of all this, joins them later.
If anything, their situation makes them more relatable. I don't know about folks here, but to me, it's not that uncommon in a corporate environment to feel that sense of "this is BS and goes against my principles but I'll do it anyway because... what else can I say?". Of course, nothing that close to the extent of dropping a plate, but I think we can allow fiction to dramatize things?
Besides, I like the current setup. It'll be interesting to see the contrast in attitudes when Elena, who wasn't part of all this, joins them later.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It'll make it easier to understand why her gung-ho attitude grates on the others. I wonder if they'll tell her that they were the ones who dropped the plate. I don't know if she knows about that, canonically speaking.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
But the remake and OG are still the most relevant parts of this conversation where conflict arises. Reflections on things later are much more likely to be characters rationalising things to themselves.
The risk of death doesn't really change whether they succeed or not, arguably it goes up. They seem completely confident in their helicopter escapes.
There's no indication at all that they were facing execution if they refused, the only consequence mentioned is that someone else would have been ordered to do it.
A threat to Rufus' reputation is also not mentioned or implied at all. To the people not in the know, Rufus is just on a long term business trip, to the people in the know, he has funded terrorism and tried to kill his father. Vouching for the Turks doesn't really affect either of those reps.
The idea that Rufus' reputation was in trouble or that the Turks were facing execution if they didn't drop the pillar are not mentioned anywhere in any canon material that I know of, they're explanations that fans have come up with to justify why the Turks absolutely had to drop the pillar and had no options or opportunity to do otherwise. Neither of them are mentioned in canon anywhere, and if I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you'll know.
The player saves Rayleigh because Cloud tells her to. She goes after Sebastian and Essai against Veld's orders because Zack did.
They defy Heidegger's orders in Junon partly because they don't like him and partly out of concern for collateral damage to the people of Junon. f that's a concern here, why is it not a much bigger concern in Sector 7? Maybe not entirely trivial, but substantially more trivial than the reasons to defy the orders to drop sector seven, but they do it anyway, so frequently that it is extremely hard to believe that they suddenly couldn't do something similar this time.
Exactly. And over and over again, they defy and wriggle out of orders if they don't want to do them. It makes it extremely hard to believe that if they really didn't want to drop the pillar they couldn't have found a way to not do it, because that's what they've done every other time they got orders they didn't want to do.
So what's different this time? If you said the threat of execution or Rufus' reputation, then that's drawing on headcanon, not anything in any of the games.
Are there any other characters where their characterisation points in the opposite direction to their actions at a key moment in the story without explanation? Everything about the Turks' characterisation says that they defy and wriggle out of orders when they don't want to carry them out. This one time, they do the opposite, and we have to come up with justifications for that ourselves.
I have trouble believing that the Turks could be under much of a threat due to how easily they are able to run rings around Shinra's other forces in BC. They can literally walk into headquarters and swipe a chopper undetected, and there's no captive Veld to lure them into a trap any more.
BioTeach
Pro Adventurer
Here's my two cents on the whole plate drop Turk reasoning thing: I think the threat of death and being on thin ice is a very reasonable assumption (although I agree it is not explicitly stated in Remake). At the end of BC we saw Tseng with the President who was in the process of ordering their executions when Rufus barged in and had them spared. That same night the Turks have a little pow wow with Rufus where they express their gratitude, etc. Shortly after Rufus leaves them they receive word of the Reactor 1 bombing. The plate drop happens only 2-3? days later. So I believe it's highly likely that their escape from execution must still be very fresh in Reno and Rude's minds. They haven't forgotten that their necks were on the chopping block just a few hours ago. Even if they had a habit of dodging orders before (though I never got that impression except with Velds ordered assassination), I would expect them to be less inclined to do so now at this particular moment given the very recent circumstances. Plus its probably their first order since being threatened with execution (other than bringing Aerith in which they genuinely failed to do at this point thanks to Cloud's intervention). Now more than ever it is a good idea for them to stay in the President's good graces. And I think they'd be smart enough to realize that, hence their decision to carry out the order whether they really wanted to or not.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
@BioTeach
You worded that very well. Probably better than I ever have.
Again, we don't need these things to be explicitly brought up at the present moment to be aware that they would be factors in play, logically speaking. If anything, not factoring in things we're aware of that should be a factor would be the canon-exclusionary course.
You worded that very well. Probably better than I ever have.
Again, we don't need these things to be explicitly brought up at the present moment to be aware that they would be factors in play, logically speaking. If anything, not factoring in things we're aware of that should be a factor would be the canon-exclusionary course.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I'm not going to try and rekindle my bad faith argument from earlier in the thread, but I really wish square had in some way made the plot beats of BC more easily accessible if they're going to be important.
Heck, it would have been as simple as adding a throwaway line that vaguely implied the Turks standing within Shinra without getting too specific. Maybe when Reno fails to capture Aerith, he's like "man, we're already in hot water the the company, I don't need this shit." or something. The other Avalanche cell is given enough exposition from Biggs that you get the gist without needing all the outside context.
Heck, it would have been as simple as adding a throwaway line that vaguely implied the Turks standing within Shinra without getting too specific. Maybe when Reno fails to capture Aerith, he's like "man, we're already in hot water the the company, I don't need this shit." or something. The other Avalanche cell is given enough exposition from Biggs that you get the gist without needing all the outside context.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I feel like you have to backflip everyone's characterisations to do that.
Rufus never seems to care about his reputation, Reno and Rude never seem to act or think they're under threat, and Shinra has never been able before (or after) to make the Turks do anything they don't want to do.
Prez doesn't know Veld is alive. As far as he knows, the surviving Turks have made a very strong declaration of loyalty to is company by killing their former commander. We have two versions of him talking to Heidegger before the pillarfall, with no hint at all that they suspect anything about their loyalties in either one. There are also logical assumptions to be made against the idea of thin ice, based on... how everyone acts in the remake, OG, and BC. Tseng admits that someone else would have been assigned, which in itself implies that refusal was an option (and he mentions no consequences to it)
There is some logic to this assumption, but I think another strand of it is the desire to allow the Turks to wriggle out of as much culpability as possible for what they've done. It's an effort to paint them as helpless victims of Shinra, rather than the perpetrators. The remake characterisation tries to do that by showing misgivings, but that just makes me ask 'why did you do it, then?' and we're left to assume an answer. The only available assumption is not that they had no choice and were facing execution which they for some reason had no chance to escape or be broken out unlike last time.
Suppose I make a different assumption. They were actually really on board with it, despite some misgivings. They wanted to put an end to AVALANCHE, regardless of cost.
I don't have to gloss over how Shinra has been everywhere else completely unable to make the Turks do anything they don't want to do.
There's no hole between the Turks not wanting to drop the pillar and yet mysteriously doing it anyway.
I don't have to wonder why they didn't just escape, as they and their colleagues have already done very recently. They're totally capable of it if they want to.
I don't have to worry about Rufus explicitly making a speech about not needing a good reputation (' I will rule the world with fear') and having no hesitation with openly disrespecting Heidegger.
I don't have to ignore the core theme of BC (which involves the Turks constantly defying their orders whenever they feel it's necessary.)
And their story going forward is even improved, because they have to take responsibility for their choices (which were their choices and not because they suddenly and implausibly had no options) rather than shifting blame, which the writers appear to be trying to do.
I honestly think there are fewer holes in that assumption.
Rufus never seems to care about his reputation, Reno and Rude never seem to act or think they're under threat, and Shinra has never been able before (or after) to make the Turks do anything they don't want to do.
Prez doesn't know Veld is alive. As far as he knows, the surviving Turks have made a very strong declaration of loyalty to is company by killing their former commander. We have two versions of him talking to Heidegger before the pillarfall, with no hint at all that they suspect anything about their loyalties in either one. There are also logical assumptions to be made against the idea of thin ice, based on... how everyone acts in the remake, OG, and BC. Tseng admits that someone else would have been assigned, which in itself implies that refusal was an option (and he mentions no consequences to it)
There is some logic to this assumption, but I think another strand of it is the desire to allow the Turks to wriggle out of as much culpability as possible for what they've done. It's an effort to paint them as helpless victims of Shinra, rather than the perpetrators. The remake characterisation tries to do that by showing misgivings, but that just makes me ask 'why did you do it, then?' and we're left to assume an answer. The only available assumption is not that they had no choice and were facing execution which they for some reason had no chance to escape or be broken out unlike last time.
Suppose I make a different assumption. They were actually really on board with it, despite some misgivings. They wanted to put an end to AVALANCHE, regardless of cost.
I don't have to gloss over how Shinra has been everywhere else completely unable to make the Turks do anything they don't want to do.
There's no hole between the Turks not wanting to drop the pillar and yet mysteriously doing it anyway.
I don't have to wonder why they didn't just escape, as they and their colleagues have already done very recently. They're totally capable of it if they want to.
I don't have to worry about Rufus explicitly making a speech about not needing a good reputation (' I will rule the world with fear') and having no hesitation with openly disrespecting Heidegger.
I don't have to ignore the core theme of BC (which involves the Turks constantly defying their orders whenever they feel it's necessary.)
And their story going forward is even improved, because they have to take responsibility for their choices (which were their choices and not because they suddenly and implausibly had no options) rather than shifting blame, which the writers appear to be trying to do.
I honestly think there are fewer holes in that assumption.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I think that's fine too. I mentioned it as a genuine possibility more than six years ago myself after all:
"Keep in mind, too, that over and above what Cameo has mentioned, there's a genuine possibility they convinced themselves they were doing what was necessary for the greater good at the time. For each other, for honor and for Rufus, yes, but also because this new incarnation of AVALANCHE had already blown up a reactor and caused a number of civilian deaths in doing so. Given what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, they probably concluded that the smaller, less devastating explosion at the no. 5 reactor was a fluke."
"Keep in mind, too, that over and above what Cameo has mentioned, there's a genuine possibility they convinced themselves they were doing what was necessary for the greater good at the time. For each other, for honor and for Rufus, yes, but also because this new incarnation of AVALANCHE had already blown up a reactor and caused a number of civilian deaths in doing so. Given what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, they probably concluded that the smaller, less devastating explosion at the no. 5 reactor was a fluke."
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
How do you remember enough about your posts to be able to dig up specific paragraphs six years later?
Also, wow, long time. I wonder how Cameo's doing.
I do think that the automatic assumption that fandom tends to make that obviously they must have been under threat and have absolutely no options other than to carry out the pillar bombing has two many roadblocks to it to be all that plausible. You have to disregard way too many things,
and the existence of later stuff about Reno's great regret, for instance, doesn't mean you get to disregard his original lack of it, where he only mentioned wanting revenge in Gongaga.
It tends to be used to draw false equivalencies between the Turks and AVALANCHE, where killing thousands of people on purpose is equated to the bombings which killed too many people by accident. That runs especially thin now, when AVALANCHE is unknowingly taking responsibility for casualties it didn't actually cause, while Reno and Rude are complaining about their bosses despite being the ones to pull the trigger in full knowledge of what they were doing.
As you know I think another alternative assumption is that they're just complete assholes.
Also, wow, long time. I wonder how Cameo's doing.
I do think that the automatic assumption that fandom tends to make that obviously they must have been under threat and have absolutely no options other than to carry out the pillar bombing has two many roadblocks to it to be all that plausible. You have to disregard way too many things,
and the existence of later stuff about Reno's great regret, for instance, doesn't mean you get to disregard his original lack of it, where he only mentioned wanting revenge in Gongaga.
It tends to be used to draw false equivalencies between the Turks and AVALANCHE, where killing thousands of people on purpose is equated to the bombings which killed too many people by accident. That runs especially thin now, when AVALANCHE is unknowingly taking responsibility for casualties it didn't actually cause, while Reno and Rude are complaining about their bosses despite being the ones to pull the trigger in full knowledge of what they were doing.
As you know I think another alternative assumption is that they're just complete assholes.
I agree the general internet fandom tends to give them more credit than they deserve. It wasn't like they had no choice. They had options, or at least Tseng's words seem to imply that. What the writing doesn't say, is the consequences of the other options. Was it dropping the plate against the threat of their own deaths, or against a giant bonus with their next paycheck, or something in between those extremes?
As for them easily wiggling out of their orders in BC vs. not doing the same now, the only excuse I can think of is that they're now reporting to Heidegger (at least officially) instead of Veld. But I guess that's an example of a fan giving them too much credit.
Should the writers have been explicit about the consequences of disobeying orders? I'm not sure. Fans might be turned away if they made it too extreme, or not extreme enough. Can't please everyone. Personally, I don't mind the ambiguity here. It leaves room for imagination and discussion.
Either way, it was between killing thousands and some form of self-preservation and they chose the latter. I think it's safe to assume that they are assholes, at least at this point in the story, though the degree of it isn't clear. But that's also what makes them interestingly flawed characters IMO.
As for them easily wiggling out of their orders in BC vs. not doing the same now, the only excuse I can think of is that they're now reporting to Heidegger (at least officially) instead of Veld. But I guess that's an example of a fan giving them too much credit.
Should the writers have been explicit about the consequences of disobeying orders? I'm not sure. Fans might be turned away if they made it too extreme, or not extreme enough. Can't please everyone. Personally, I don't mind the ambiguity here. It leaves room for imagination and discussion.
Either way, it was between killing thousands and some form of self-preservation and they chose the latter. I think it's safe to assume that they are assholes, at least at this point in the story, though the degree of it isn't clear. But that's also what makes them interestingly flawed characters IMO.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Whatever the weaknesses of the writing, I think it's pretty clear how SE intends us to view these characters, and it's not as complete arseholes. I don't know which annoys you more, Clem: the fact that the Turks have apologists, or the fact that SE didn't portray the Turks as the complete arseholes you'd prefer them to be. 
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
'Assholes' is not the only available assumption, it's just one among many. But I seem to get corrected on making different assumptions to other people. I happen to think they're written deliberately ambiguously, because that's good for the brand.
It's not like I'm demanding that no one like these characters, or have any positive views on them. You seem to think I'm being somehow unfair by not assuming the most favourable impression possible.
It's not like I'm demanding that no one like these characters, or have any positive views on them. You seem to think I'm being somehow unfair by not assuming the most favourable impression possible.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Not just mine.
All of you live in my head. 
Ask @ForceStealer or @Makoeyes987 how many times my seemingly infinite repository of useless information has performed necromancy on something they said at the dawn of time just to be a fabulous bitch.
On a related note, Mako made a post earlier that I need to give him shit for because of one he made 10 and a half years ago.
Yes ... "people" ...
Clem said:
Yeah. =(
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Cam's good. She's still happily married. She qualified as a lawyer, passed the bar exam, but lost her job just before Covid-19 hit. I'm sure she'll find another. She's really dedicated to her work.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
LMFAO TRES....
I remember being on here when FFXIII came out, and MOG (is he still around?) was doing a very detailed rundown of his play through. The further he got along, the more everyone was collectively shitting bricks, but not in the good way.
I was kind of protective of FFXIII then because of my lesbians. Even today, the only things I retain from that game is a lot of horny gay energy and a burning hatred for Snow.
I remember being on here when FFXIII came out, and MOG (is he still around?) was doing a very detailed rundown of his play through. The further he got along, the more everyone was collectively shitting bricks, but not in the good way.
I was kind of protective of FFXIII then because of my lesbians. Even today, the only things I retain from that game is a lot of horny gay energy and a burning hatred for Snow.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I often think of Mog's XIII play log. I appreciated the various feelings it detailed. How he mostly didn't like it, and found the lack of towns and downtime exhausting, but would also include posts where he'd say stuff like "help! I can't stop playing!" I enjoyed seeing the nuance, haha.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Not just mine.
Ask @ForceStealer or @Makoeyes987 how many times my seemingly infinite repository of useless information has performed necromancy on something they said at the dawn of time just to be a fabulous bitch.
On a related note, Mako made a post earlier that I need to give him shit for because of one he made 10 and a half years ago.
Yes ... "people" ...
One of the most intriguing and fascinating things is to witness your own changed mind from the past. It's really quite hilarious. Yup, I angrily shat on that game's lawn a decade ago and now it's one of my favorite games today.
I suppose what changed was my metric for a "full FF game" and how it spoke to me. Coming from the high that was the loaded up installment of FFXII, XIII felt empty. It was a radical shock to what was established as the right formula and given how much I loved XII and all... Yeah, XIII felt like cold water splashed in my face.
But when I engaged with XIII just on its own merits and let it tell it's story, I couldn't help but love it. No, the sidequests weren't as engaging as other installments and it certainly was a highly linear game. but I enjoyed the story, and it was a definitely challenging game. It just goes to show if you give something a chance, you may be presently surprised.
Ironically, the Fabula Nova Crystallis era has given me some of the most enjoyable gameplay and stories I've had in awhile. Go figure.
Mayo Master
Pro Adventurer
Onwards and upwards with my photo selection from Chapter 15! Lots of scenery porn going on, especially with the sunset lighting. I think the increase in resolution of the background texture is a significant upgrade on this chapter, for some reason I think it works better here (looks less flat?) than on Chapter 6.
Mayo Master
Pro Adventurer
