SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 17 Spoiler Discussion

Teioh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Teiocho
That 'a new era' coin, Avalanche's attack on the building and him calling up the Turks before Sephiroth swept on up and did the President in had me thinking at first that Rufus was preparing to take care of dear old dad himself (and capturing Cloud and co. to take the fall for it). I kinda wish that was the case but, well, it's my headcanon now anyway despite lack of canon evidence to support it :mon:
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I loved the Jenova and Rufus fights so much, it's freaking insane. Last Jenova phase is like, easily inside my top5 moments of the game.

I think if Red XIII ever becomes playable, this chapter can also easily become one of the best in the game. The Drum quickly became very boring, and it dragged down too much. But damn....Jenova and Rufus.....I live for that shit. Goddamnit....

Also, who threw President Shinra to the ledge?
 
Apparently it was Sephiroth, but I like to think it was Tseng.

Since 'escape from the Shinra building' wasn't as exciting as the original, and the motorbike chase even more tedious than the original, I'm happy to call it quits after defeating Rufus, although I do enjoy the insane elevator ride and the big fight with the machine. But after that, I'm done.
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
I liked most of this chapter, but one part really annoyed me.
  • Red XIII looks great! I kinda wish he had more banter, but what is there is good. I tried switching to tactical mode every time he attacked so that I could watch his animations, but he only ever seemed to attack when I did so I missed a lot of them. Stardust Ray got a real glow-up though, damn. I always disliked the original version, so I appreciated the change.
  • Speaking of banter, one of my favourite exchanges in the game is when Red goes on at length about Jenova and how dangerous it is, and Barret just says, "I don't care about any of that shit!"
  • The fight with Arsenal seems like it was designed with playable Red in mind (or at least with some kind of special command). The little drones floating around Arsenal say they're only staggered by melee attacks, and specifically state that magic and long range have no effect. Problem there is that I don't think Aerith or Barret have any way to melee attack them. For me, the drones were always flying above the Arsenal, and even if you give Barret a melee weapon, he won't jump to hit aerial enemies. So why say they're staggered by melees if there's no way to melee them?
  • re:Arsenal, I still liked the fight itself even if it seemed like it was planned around a playable Red that wasn't there. Barret has good chemistry with everyone, so it was nice to see him interact with Aerith and Red more. Their scene with Heidegger was also great.
  • I loved The Drum dungeon itself. The central room was gorgeous, and the party switching was great. I had enough decent materia that I never had to switch any gear and could just keep progressing.
  • The Swordipede boss was way funner than it had any right to be.
  • Jenova was a little too easy, but I can't really have any complaints when the music's that good.
  • As someone who never really cared about Rufus at first, the Compilation and novels have done a great job in making me like the guy. Stupid, stupid coat aside, I liked him in the Remake too. In a game full to the bring of cool people, he's still somehow the coolest. That said...
  • I hated his boss fight. The look is great, Rufus has style coming out of everywhere, and some cool moves to boot. His bond with Darkstar is awesome, and the first stage of the fight is super fun.
  • As soon as you take down Darkstar though it becomes a mess. There's only one way to beat Rufus (already a problem, but not too much of one) so there's no real creativity for this fight. There's also no way to use most of the skills you've been developing all game long--it's just find opening and use Braver. Again, this isn't the biggest issue, but what really bothered me is that every single one of Rufus' attacks seems to leave Cloud stunned for just long enough that it gets frustrating quickly. There's only one solution, and if you try to experiment at all the game punishes you with a full-second stagger. I'd prefer it if Rufus hit hard as a deterrent, but he doesn't even do much damage so there's no stakes, just annoyance. Not to mention that the window for a chance to Braver seems pretty tight, and if you're even half a second off Rufus can shotgun you again, knocking you out of your attack into another stagger state that goes on just long enough to get even more frustrating.
  • On the plus side, this fight really captures the sense that he owns Cloud because there's only one thing you can do :monster:
If you read this far I commend you. Onto the finale, hopefully sometime this afternoon.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I loved The Drum dungeon itself. The central room was gorgeous, and the party switching was great. I had enough decent materia that I never had to switch any gear and could just keep progressing.

This is something I particularly enjoyed in my run through this dungeon too. Each character had their setup and even with party switching they could handle everything. I wish this were ever the case in Kefka's Tower :lol:
And for awhile I had had Tifa be more of an all rounder for some casting and magic and such. But once she's on a team with Aerith, I could switch to the Metal Knuckles and go full physical offense and give Aerith all the magic. Which was also fun
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
Doesn't Barret have a couple of melee weapons, though? Of course, I had just removed them from him because I preferred to have him attack long-range…

I loved every little scene with Red, he was so cute when he jumped on the levers. <3
Barret has melee weapons, yes, but he can only hit ground-level enemies with them. So maybe the little drones were meant to come down to Barret's height? Or you could force them down somehow? I just know I did all of chapter 15 with the cannonball and Barret couldn't hit a single drake or helitrooper. He'd just attack the air beneath them.

And yes, Red's lever animation was fantastic!
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I liked Barret's confrontation with President Shinra.

"I'm a man of modest dreams. Dropping you from seventy stories up would get me damn near to good."

Too bad Barret kinda looked like a chump at the end there by allowing Shinra to get to his desk where my first thought was "he's probably got a gun there" which of freakin' course he did. :P
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
I see the reasoning for not making Red a complete playable character when he comes in this close to the end of the game. What I do think is a missed opportunity is that Red participating in a battle changes nothing about how you play. Even if you can't control him directly, it's a shame there's no way to influence his behaviour. And I don't mean like setting gambits, because that's too different from how you control your party members for the rest of the game.

I think something like FFXV's link strikes would have been a good compromise. If you do certain things in battle, Red will follow-up with predictable moves so that you change your playstyle to take advantage of Red. For example, if you pressure an enemy, Red will jump on it and bite it, causing the pressured state to last longer so you can build more ATB or deal with other enemies.
 

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
It would have been nice for sure, but that's a lot to try implement for the final segment of the game, which is why they didn't make him playable in the first instance.

I imagine Part II will have some insane link-combos and strikes. The gradual build up, throughout the entire game, of the abilities and skills of the group to slowly put them on par with the Advent Children style battling ... I imagine we're getting that full throttle in the second game.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I completely believe that Red was going to be a playable character at first. The Drum would have been a perfect starting place for him, and it would take all the boring out of it pretty much. The Arsenal battle would also have been greatly improved.

I liked Barret's confrontation with President Shinra.

"I'm a man of modest dreams. Dropping you from seventy stories up would get me damn near to good."

Too bad Barret kinda looked like a chump at the end there by allowing Shinra to get to his desk where my first thought was "he's probably got a gun there" which of freakin' course he did. :P
Right? I mean, I loved how Shinra called him out. He really didnt ask for the Reactors to stop at first. The gun part was also incredibly dumb. Like, really?

Also, relistening to the Jenova boss fight track, and yeah....almosy tearing up again. It is really close to being my favorite track of the game. Goddamnit Square.....
 

Via Purifico

Pro Adventurer
FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE_20200419211908.jpgFINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE_20200419211908.jpg
Who dis in the top left? Because I'm pretty sure one of them is toting a ninja star. There's also a beastie that looks like Red on the right. Are they Ancients or some kind of rep for which characters made the final team for the rest of the game? If so, where's Vincent and Cid? Or is this just another group of people who happen to look similar to the team and further proof of some kind of circling fate they're all trapped in a la Spira style?


Also you can't see because of the angle, but there's 2 red stars in this. One on the top right about to hit the planet, with Aerith's signature flower in the centre and one red star on the lower right beside a large red flower, meaning it's on the ground. I think that's the original meteor that brought Jenova and the central image is hinting that the OG storyline with Aerith needing to die and take control of the lifestream is still gonna carry over.

Unless it's all a red herring
 
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Glaurung

Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
AKA
Mama Dragon
Ok, since I'm just watching it like a movie, I skipped most of the Drum and saving the experience for when I can actually play it.
  • The scene with the President. Kinda cool for Barret, until he let the scoundrel retreat to his desk. Haven't you seen action movies, Barret?
  • I'm with Lic on that I think it was Tseng the one to throw the Prez over the railing. Had it been Sephiroth he would have skewed it to the desk.
  • Sephiroth murdering Barret and then the Whispers resurrecting him.
  • Then the whispers murdering Wedge. The shoe dropped :(
  • JENOVA fight and the music.
  • Rufus.
  • Yes, just Rufus. He went from slightly cool rich brat with an expensive gun in the OG to someone who could give Vincent a run for his money.
  • Rufu's wardrobe. Because it look quite silly but it's spectacular once the wind blows. Now I'm wondering if one of the Turks' tasks would be having a fan pointing at him each time he wants to look cool but there's no wind to speak of.
 
Nothing gameplay-related to Final Fantasy VII, perhaps even Final Fantasy as a whole, has made me erupt with fury like the boss battle against Rufus Shinra. The catastrophic humiliation of being thrown around by this gun-slinging, smug rich boy aikido master is a gameplay embodiment of psychological torture. The subsequent rage and hatred I felt would be enough to make Kefka go "maybe you should calm down, bro".

Even after analyzing his movements, reading his Enemy Intel and trying all my abilities on him, I could not pressure him into a stagger even ONCE. Thanks to @Cannon_Fodder I know that I was right to theorize that Braver was the correct move (since it wouldn't be fair to require a move not present by default), but clearly the timing was way too precise for me to figure out. Who knows, maybe I could have cheesed the battle with strong offensive magic, but I had focused my equipment on the restorative, protective and evasive instead.

In my anger I screamed and I shouted. I hit things, threw things, crushed things and intimately entertained the thought of throwing much of my porcelain on the floor. Because of his close ties with the General Affairs Department, the battle with Rufus Shinra also reminded me of the violent disdain and hatred that FFVIIR has made me feel for the Turks. Being supremely handled by Rufus Shinra was like the frustration of being interrupted by Reno and Rude on the support pillar, times one thousand.

The words of Deepground echoed in my head that which I wanted to do with Rufus Shinra and the Turks.

HUNTED DOWN! EXTERMINATED! SLASHED, STRANGLED AND SLAUGHTERED! BEATEN, STABBED AND CRUSHED! GARROTED AND IMPALED! SHOT AND EXECUTED WITHOUT MERCY!

If it was ever the developers' intent to make you HATE a person through gameplay alone, then I can tell you that they succeeded on at least one gamer.
No other boss in the entire game comes close to his difficulty level, if not in terms of Game Overs but in sheer frustration and required adaptability.

Kudos to the developers for daring to create a difficult boss fight but I wish some of the difficulty had been reserved for Hard Mode.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
lol shad

I didn't really use Braver, I think I used Focused Thrust, but I usually found it easier to just hit him with a few normal attacks when he would reload. And then just hover around him guarding, close enough that I could easily attack him in that window. Especially in a range that seemed to trigger his "normal" gun attacks, which seemed to cause him to reload more often. I can't remember if I ever staggered him, probably not? Finished him with Ascension, though.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
For future reference to anyone else who gets wrecked by Rufus.

For the first part of the fight with Dark Star, you *must* use Punisher to block-counter his dumb dog's attacks. Not the grabbing one, but the one where he tackles you like a corkscrew. A unique animation will occur forcing Dark Star into the Pressured state. Go to town on the vulnerable animal before Rufus proceeds to attack you, as if you're some asshole who hates dogs.

You'll need to just continue focusing on the dog, staying alive, and keeping your Punisher counter-guard up until you proceed to force Rufus to choose between personal safety, and sentimental attachment to his favorite pet.

Thankfully he makes the right choice for both of us.

From there it's actually easier, because the trick is to only go after Rufus when he's reloading his gun. It's honestly, hilariously simple. His Shotgun-Fu is strong, but completely at the mercy of his ammo. Once he pauses to reload, fuck-start his face with a Braver.

He will then flee the battle while simultaneously acting as if he's the victor. Thus confirming he truly is the Asshole of the New Age.
 
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