ForceStealer
Double Growth
Yeah that pretty well encapsulates why I think the ending is stupid but also why I haven't written off the whole project.
SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
when i got to chapter 18 i thought they might add a sephiroth battle since motorball isn't really a very climactic final boss (i kind of wonder if the new jenova wouldn't be better placed at the end, although i did like the distorted environment going on in the shinra building)
turns out i was right and then there was some other stuff lol
but i really liked the character work too so i am still hopeful for that, and fighting less giant destiny monsters
turns out i was right and then there was some other stuff lol
but i really liked the character work too so i am still hopeful for that, and fighting less giant destiny monsters
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
It has some good points, but I dont agree with it 100%. The Whispers are more inconsistent than just "they suck at the ending", and his argument as to why doesnt make sense. Even if they were shown as being helpers in some cases, that doesnt "unjustify" the final battle. We dont fully know about the future they saw, and the idea that by taking them down and fully attaining freedom, the characters are making extremely risky moves, seems like the way they intended. "I miss the steel sky".
He also doesnt really address the elephant in the room. I dont think there really is a build up to such a meta ending. And if there was, there would be some downsides, being that it will take away from the surprise of being meta. Because thats what a meta moment is. It's bold, and crazy. If a meta moment doesnt shock people, you would have to have a seriously f*cked up crazy game. That's why what I would have done, is to try and make it even more dissonant. I'm talking "dream sequence" level of crazy, so the characters dont have time to really spout the corny "we are fighting Fate" dialogue and feel so off putting. Because I think that's what the big issue was. It doesnt feel like the rest of FFVIIR, but it also still feels like the ending sequence of this game. And so inevitably our minds make the conclusion: they jumped some necessary chapters that would build up to this. And excuse why the characters are like this right now, and doing this right now. The game doesnt really give that. And that's why by going further into "dream sequence" you wouldnt really need that. And it also would end and the characters would still be dumbfounded, and realism would come back. No problem with characters slashing buildings. It was a crazy sequence that fulfilled it's purpose: kill Fate and be meta.
He also doesnt really address the elephant in the room. I dont think there really is a build up to such a meta ending. And if there was, there would be some downsides, being that it will take away from the surprise of being meta. Because thats what a meta moment is. It's bold, and crazy. If a meta moment doesnt shock people, you would have to have a seriously f*cked up crazy game. That's why what I would have done, is to try and make it even more dissonant. I'm talking "dream sequence" level of crazy, so the characters dont have time to really spout the corny "we are fighting Fate" dialogue and feel so off putting. Because I think that's what the big issue was. It doesnt feel like the rest of FFVIIR, but it also still feels like the ending sequence of this game. And so inevitably our minds make the conclusion: they jumped some necessary chapters that would build up to this. And excuse why the characters are like this right now, and doing this right now. The game doesnt really give that. And that's why by going further into "dream sequence" you wouldnt really need that. And it also would end and the characters would still be dumbfounded, and realism would come back. No problem with characters slashing buildings. It was a crazy sequence that fulfilled it's purpose: kill Fate and be meta.
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Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Maaaybe the lack of direct confirmation is just because they tried to stay as much as "spoiler-free" as possible to not fully spoil other works from the compilation to new players? I mean if you first contact w FFVII is this one you won't get the clue, but if you watched AC/C and played the other games you will. Win win situation?!
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
These are the things I can do without.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
Part 2's first legit leak right here.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
crazyrabbits23
yes.
- AKA
- Alex
I'd really love to B R E A K Y O U R H E A R T
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I'd be more inclined to believe the Ultimania more than him though. Maybe whoever told him, didn't even know for sure
Oh I totally agree. But, that's why I'm not reading it as they have confirmed it. Its like people saying Zack is alive. That's not confirmed either.
I'm actually glad they're doing it this way. I can't imagine trying to remake a game, and keep that same element of surprise that the first one had
Pizzachu
SOLDIER Fan
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Knights of the Round
Pro Adventurer
A good post. In addition - as much as I love the OG it also had some cringe-worthy content.
"Because, Cloud, you are...."
(10 minute Jenova boss fight)
"Beacause[sp].. you are a puppet."
"I'm a puppet?"
Who could forget that misspelled out-of-context exchange that threw a really awkward wrench into Aeris' death sequence.. which we've all built up in our heads to be sacred and untouchable.
We've romanticized the OG so much over the past 23 years (myself included), but what I'm starting to realize is that it wasn't perfect, either. It's just that it did so many special things that I ignored some of its absurd moments whereas, on the other hand, the Remake has been under an electron microscope and been dissected and scrutinized down to the microbe.
Knights of the Round
Pro Adventurer
Also, for all the criticism of the Harbinger and whisper fight.. does no one remember the absolute clutz of a boss you fought in the OG before Seph's angelic form? Bizarro Sephiroth?
I, personally, thought he was lame.. as well as the music.
Then they followed that up with the most awesome boss and accompanying music ever seen.
One thing I didn't like in Remake was the flying over Midgar, Sora-style, and running along all the broken platforms like an action hero. My least favorite part of the game.. although the accompanying music was awesome.
I, personally, thought he was lame.. as well as the music.
Then they followed that up with the most awesome boss and accompanying music ever seen.
One thing I didn't like in Remake was the flying over Midgar, Sora-style, and running along all the broken platforms like an action hero. My least favorite part of the game.. although the accompanying music was awesome.
Keveh Kins
Pun Enthusiast
I've taken the day to digest the ending (while chipping away at getting all 9 dresses! I'm not normally a platinum completion type, but hey, it's FF7!), and the overall experience that was FF7R. I'm listening to the OG soundtrack typing this cause to be honest I'm feeling a bit emotional and the Main Theme is really encompassing all of my feelings. So yeah, thoughts below 
I suppose to start with, there is a part of me that utterly hates the final chapter of this game in terms of its story. Some minor grievances include having Sephiroth be the final boss, which feels like a waste at this point in the entire project. Save that shit, build it up! (At the same time, I acknowledge that it's not 1997, everyone knows who he is and what he can do and if Kingdom Hearts proved anything, it's that we all love a good Sephiroth boss fight.)
Another minor grievance that others have mentioned, I think the OG had a much more engaging atmosphere during the whole 'Trail of blood' sequence. Following the carnage and bloodshed and then finding the most powerful man in the world impaled at his desk? It just felt much creepier, ominous and evocative than the way things played out in the Remake.
But these are just little nitpick personal preference things, really.
What really made me dislike the ending is that it's focused so heavily around the one addition to the story that felt unnecessary to me, the Whispers. All the notions of defying destiny, fighting fate, all that stuff was implicit in the story of the original game. Cloud defied his fate of being a puppet of Sephiroth, the entire group defied the destined end of the Planet via Meteor, even though it all seemed hopeless. The Whispers just felt like they lacked any nuance. They felt very much like an occasion of Square being hamfisted and inserting a change for the sake of change.
They, to me, were the Genesis at the Nibelheim Reactor of this game. They had to get 'em in there, even though the story worked just fine without them.
The ending felt very out of sync with the rest of the game, it felt like we were suddenly transported into the finale of Final Fantasy XIII for a while, fighting pre-determination and all that jazz.
I also, initially, had a seriously adverse reaction to the notion that Zack survives (Same goes for the Avalanche trio, but to a lesser extent). Zack's death is such a bitter moment in the original game, and Crisis Core as well, though I prefer the bleak reality of the OG's depiction. I felt quite fucked off initially at the implication he survives, because as drastic changes go, that's a pretty fucking drastic one, especially when the majority of the game is so faithful to the story of the original.
But having slept on it and remembering what I said before about taking all of this with an open mind, I've concluded that this ending, while not what I expected, and not what I wanted, isn't the ruination of the story and the goodwill and respect for the original that I initially felt it was.
Basically, I'm going all in on the whole 'Embrace whatever it brings' tag line.
90% of this game was such a loving recreation of a seminal story in the medium, and in wee little Kevin's development. I got to run around the Sector 7 slums, truly living and breathing. I got to see an omen of things to come with that Whirlwind Maze hallucination. I got to crossdress, I got to find weird shit going on in the Honeybee Inn. I got to see and feel these characters and this story and this world in a whole new light and honestly, the whole experience has been very inspiring for me in terms of my interest in the fandom again. A reinvigoration.
Not to mention the soundtrack, the combat, everything.
When so much of the game is so positive, I just can't stay that angry about the ending.
I don't like the conclusion, but I accept it, and I'm accepting that from here on out some things will be changed in ways that I never expected, and probably never wanted.
So I suppose I'm mourning the death of some of my expectations and hopes, and that's okay. At the same time, I'm celebrating a truly fantastic starter dish that gave us a flavour of the level of homage and expansion we're gonna get down the road.
I'm making the choice to love this game for everything that it is, rather than hate it for the one thing that it isn't (a pure recreation of the original). Same goes for the sequels.
This was a great experience, the story was fantastic, even though it got shaky at the end for me. I got to relive so much and experience so much more for the first time.
They've given me more than enough with this game that it's not unreasonable they ask me to accept something like the Arbiters of Fate, or the possibility that the theories about time travelling Sephiroth and parallel universes and Zack (whose bulletproof vest actually worked this time) surviving could turn out to be true.
So yeah, I'm on board. I'll gripe and I'll moan along the way, no doubt, but I'm on board.
Give me this world, this soundtrack, these characters and this level of loving recreation in every installment and I'll greet whatever other wacky shit they throw in with open arms.
That's my 2 gil, for now anway.
Oh...And as always...
Fuck Chadley.
Another minor grievance that others have mentioned, I think the OG had a much more engaging atmosphere during the whole 'Trail of blood' sequence. Following the carnage and bloodshed and then finding the most powerful man in the world impaled at his desk? It just felt much creepier, ominous and evocative than the way things played out in the Remake.
But these are just little nitpick personal preference things, really.
What really made me dislike the ending is that it's focused so heavily around the one addition to the story that felt unnecessary to me, the Whispers. All the notions of defying destiny, fighting fate, all that stuff was implicit in the story of the original game. Cloud defied his fate of being a puppet of Sephiroth, the entire group defied the destined end of the Planet via Meteor, even though it all seemed hopeless. The Whispers just felt like they lacked any nuance. They felt very much like an occasion of Square being hamfisted and inserting a change for the sake of change.
They, to me, were the Genesis at the Nibelheim Reactor of this game. They had to get 'em in there, even though the story worked just fine without them.
The ending felt very out of sync with the rest of the game, it felt like we were suddenly transported into the finale of Final Fantasy XIII for a while, fighting pre-determination and all that jazz.
I also, initially, had a seriously adverse reaction to the notion that Zack survives (Same goes for the Avalanche trio, but to a lesser extent). Zack's death is such a bitter moment in the original game, and Crisis Core as well, though I prefer the bleak reality of the OG's depiction. I felt quite fucked off initially at the implication he survives, because as drastic changes go, that's a pretty fucking drastic one, especially when the majority of the game is so faithful to the story of the original.
But having slept on it and remembering what I said before about taking all of this with an open mind, I've concluded that this ending, while not what I expected, and not what I wanted, isn't the ruination of the story and the goodwill and respect for the original that I initially felt it was.
Basically, I'm going all in on the whole 'Embrace whatever it brings' tag line.
90% of this game was such a loving recreation of a seminal story in the medium, and in wee little Kevin's development. I got to run around the Sector 7 slums, truly living and breathing. I got to see an omen of things to come with that Whirlwind Maze hallucination. I got to crossdress, I got to find weird shit going on in the Honeybee Inn. I got to see and feel these characters and this story and this world in a whole new light and honestly, the whole experience has been very inspiring for me in terms of my interest in the fandom again. A reinvigoration.
Not to mention the soundtrack, the combat, everything.
When so much of the game is so positive, I just can't stay that angry about the ending.
I don't like the conclusion, but I accept it, and I'm accepting that from here on out some things will be changed in ways that I never expected, and probably never wanted.
So I suppose I'm mourning the death of some of my expectations and hopes, and that's okay. At the same time, I'm celebrating a truly fantastic starter dish that gave us a flavour of the level of homage and expansion we're gonna get down the road.
I'm making the choice to love this game for everything that it is, rather than hate it for the one thing that it isn't (a pure recreation of the original). Same goes for the sequels.
This was a great experience, the story was fantastic, even though it got shaky at the end for me. I got to relive so much and experience so much more for the first time.
They've given me more than enough with this game that it's not unreasonable they ask me to accept something like the Arbiters of Fate, or the possibility that the theories about time travelling Sephiroth and parallel universes and Zack (whose bulletproof vest actually worked this time) surviving could turn out to be true.
So yeah, I'm on board. I'll gripe and I'll moan along the way, no doubt, but I'm on board.
Give me this world, this soundtrack, these characters and this level of loving recreation in every installment and I'll greet whatever other wacky shit they throw in with open arms.
That's my 2 gil, for now anway.
Oh...And as always...
Fuck Chadley.
Cannon_Fodder
Pro Adventurer
In lieu of being able to like that twice, I'll just say that your thoughts were very well-written and I enjoyed them tremendously.
Oh, and of course fuck Chadley.
Oh, and of course fuck Chadley.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That's like, the best fucking quote I've ever heard someone say about the whole thing. I love that.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Man, you guys are too hard on Chadley. The whole joke is how off putting, awkward, and out of place he is. Seeing him standing there, sticking out like a sore thumb among the sin and squalor of Wall Market was one of the funniest moments in the game! That's been my personal FF7R character arc, learning to like Chadley. Leave my lad alone dang it.
ANYWAY, great post @Keveh Kins !
ANYWAY, great post @Keveh Kins !
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
idk, with a name like Chadley, I am not sure how I am supposed to react to him other than with the supreme urge to bully.
(sorry to anyone who might be named Chadley)
(you still owe me lunch money)
(sorry to anyone who might be named Chadley)
(you still owe me lunch money)
Cannon_Fodder
Pro Adventurer
Oh, I love Chadley. It's just that part of that love is because he's so fun to bully.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I agree in the sense that I've more or less made my peace with it, and that the shitty ending isn't enough to overpower how much I adored the rest of it.
BUT, just to put a point on it, my problem is not just it not being a pure recreation - but that it was SO CLOSE to exactly what I wanted, lol. As you said:
That's the part that still gnaws at me. If you finished the bike chase, and everyone stated their reason for continuing the journey, said goodbye to Midgar, gave us this shot, and then rolled credits? I would have been over the moon. 10/10. Even if the stupid dementor stuff was still there because I wouldn't have an answer about them and could just put them out of my mind as just a silly attempt at metacommentary.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Right now? Yes.
Would I be equally displeased whenever that shoe dropped? Also yes. (Although I suppose if it happened at the very end I would be less displeased because I would not longer be worried about them changing everything and it would merely be dumb.)
Would I be equally displeased whenever that shoe dropped? Also yes. (Although I suppose if it happened at the very end I would be less displeased because I would not longer be worried about them changing everything and it would merely be dumb.)
Knights of the Round
Pro Adventurer
I mean, hey, we all loved the OG. But if you were to compile a list of things the Remake was better at that excluded things strictly on the basis of an advance in technology from 1997 to 2020 that allowed for it it'd be quite easy to do:
1) Honeybee Inn - instead of this just being a pervert's hangout like in the OG they turned it into a full-blown burlesque club. It's brilliant.
2) Wall Market - although I wish Corneo could also pick either Aeris or Tifa, instead of just Cloud, the Madame M scenes, the coliseum and everything else was fantastic and much better than the OG's version of Wall Market
3) Boss fights - I don't think there's any argument these are much more epic and challenging
4) Character interactions/dialogue - characters have much more depth to them
You can love both games.
1) Honeybee Inn - instead of this just being a pervert's hangout like in the OG they turned it into a full-blown burlesque club. It's brilliant.
2) Wall Market - although I wish Corneo could also pick either Aeris or Tifa, instead of just Cloud, the Madame M scenes, the coliseum and everything else was fantastic and much better than the OG's version of Wall Market
3) Boss fights - I don't think there's any argument these are much more epic and challenging
4) Character interactions/dialogue - characters have much more depth to them
You can love both games.