SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Tetsujin]

Yo but for real though...that whole defying fate shit...

...

it better not lead to Aerith staying alive or some shit

Also seven seconds. Sephiroth, speak clearly

It's midnight I don't have time for your riddle bullshit

random sidenote but I switched back to the Buster Sword for the final battle

the stats are balanced enough that it still remains a viable choice which I like and that way I have consistency with the FMVs :'D

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

what's the consensus on that Zack nonsense

lol

 

[Theozilla]

I seriously doubt Aerith is going to survive in the Remake. Especially since her voice actress has already spoken about knowing her character is going to die in future installments. I don’t think SE is that interest in changing/remixing things.

 

[OWA-2]

There’s really is no evidence yet to call this a sequel though.

Well, the game assumes that we already know the original timeline, and why the Keepers appear at certain points in the story, doesn't it? In that case, it's a sequel. Because we need knowledge of a previous game, to understand what is happening in this one.

 

[Tetsujin]

I seriously doubt Aerith is going to survive in the Remake. Especially since her voice actress has already spoken about knowing her character is going to die in future installments. I don’t think SE is that interest in changing/remixing things.

She 'knows' because of the original but she doesn't actually know what's gonna happen in the next instalment of this one.

The whole ending bit was constantly going on about defying fate, showing us familiar scenes from FFVII and that this is the future if we fail here (which we didn't). I feel like there's a strong implication of 'anything's possible now!' especially with it saying the 'unknown' journey continues.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Also seven seconds. Sephiroth, speak clearly

it better not lead to Aerith staying alive or some shit

Honestly, I don't see them doing that. I feel like the entirety of the Arbiters of Fate shit were a means to give the Remake it's own standalone conclusion and a means for the writers to subvert expectations and show, "yes, there will be changes, no, you won't be able to predict the future." Like, I think it's a way to make us, the audience, now embrace the uncertainty and not just have us expect what our preconceived notions of this project are.

Does that mean it won't be FFVII-R? No, it'll remain FFVII in it's DNA. However they will be creative and it will have change. It's just something to wait for and see.

And the fight within that singularity you had allowed for the past to be seen and nearly effected. Sephiroth seemingly wanted to change the past at "Destiny's Crossroads." By changing the past, the twisted future he showed you would have been reality. Because Zack.. would not allow Cloud to be Cloud then.

He wanted to fast-forward to the part he won.

and that this is the future if we fail here (which we didn't).

Even that's ambiguous because, I thought they were referring to stopping Sephiroth and preventing him from achieving his goal. They prevented Sephiroth from changing the past, however Sephiroth's still out there and he still of course has the original plan to summon Meteor as well.

 

[Theozilla]

Well, the game assumes that we already know the original timeline, and why the Keepers appear at certain points in the story, doesn't it? In that case, it's a sequel. Because we need knowledge of a previous game, to understand what is happening in this one.

The game having meta-“winks” at older players isn’t the same as needing to play the OG to get what’s happening.
The Whispers appear in the Remake to protect some abstract vaguely defined concept of fate/destiny. That doesn’t imply that the OG is some distinct alternate timeline that’s already occurred in relation to the in-universe narrative of the Remake. The game being extremely meta does not equal the narrative itself being meta and a sequel. Until there’s actual substantial evidence to prove otherwise, it’s inaccurate to call this a sequel.

She 'knows' because of the original but she doesn't actually know what's gonna happen in the next instalment of this one.

The whole ending bit was constantly going on about defying fate, showing us familiar scenes from FFVII and that this is the future if we fail here (which we didn't). I feel like there's a strong implication of 'anything's possible now!' especially with it saying the 'unknown' journey continues.

If that’s how you want to interpret the ending, I can’t stop you. But I am confident the overall general plot-line of the FFVII story is going to be followed in the Remake. Aerith’s death and Meteor summon and Cloud’s identity mystery being the biggest ones.

 

[Tetsujin]

Even that's ambiguous because, I thought they were referring to stopping Sephiroth and preventing him from achieving his goal. They prevented Sephiroth from changing the past, however Sephiroth's still out there and he still of course has the original plan to summon Meteor as well.

But that's the thing, it was the future where *they* won. Those scenes were taken straight from ACC. Red XIII 500 years in the future and everything. That's what's making me think it's a meta commentary on how all bets are gonna be off going forward. I hope I'm wrong, but man...this entire thing is confusing as fuck

 

[Firstone33]

There may be something to the timeline theory, someone on YouTube said that two timelines were created in ending of remake and I got to say it makes lot of sense even though it is likely not true the theory is that one is the original timeline where cloud thinks he is in soldier and such but another is Zack survived and that one is the one aerith sees of course I have no concrete evidence on this

But that's the thing, it was the future where *they* won. Those scenes were taken straight from ACC. Red XIII 500 years in the future and everything. That's what's making me think it's a meta commentary on how all bets are gonna be off going forward. I hope I'm wrong, but man...this entire thing is confusing as fuck

It is possible the arbiters are showing them what suppose to happen that they are suppose to stop sephiroth but they do not know that yet even with the vision of red five hundred years from then of course it is speculation at this time and only part 2 can answer that

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They prevented Sephiroth from changing the past, however Sephiroth's still out there and he still of course has the original plan to summon Meteor as well.

I'm still unclear on how you came to the understanding that Seph was trying to change something in the past involving Zack. The Whispers created the dome singularity thing, not him. And most obviously of all ... he doesn't fly off to do anything about Zack once the singularity is in place.

If that's because he needed to beat Cloud and co. first, then why would he have needed to mess with Zack in the past to begin with? In order to ensure he would win in the present after he had already just beat Cloud from the present?

Besides, we all know Seph could have killed them all any time he wanted to, what with the illusions and shapeshifting and such.

Also, I can't see Seph passing on the opportunity to torture Cloud. He wants him like he is.

 

[Eerie]

But you see, we know how it has to go for it to be a good ending - while the characters themselves don't. They think because of the poor context they have that all of this happens at once, and clearly Sephiroth seems to be winning, so it must be the bad outcome.

The writers are not only playing with our heads, they're also messing up the characters' views who can't know the truth mixed up with lies. They want to defy what they consider as a bad ending, but they don't really know what's their true fate, they only got small clues - maybe Aerith knows more than what she lets on, but it's my belief that she doesn't know her own fate.

Oops, I was replying to @Tetsujin but the thread got too fast for me!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm still unclear on how you came to the understanding that Seph was trying to change something in the past involving Zack. The Whispers created the dome singularity thing, not him. And most obviously of all ... he doesn't fly off to do anything about Zack once the singularity is in place.

If that's because he needed to beat Cloud and co. first, then why would he have needed to mess with Zack in the past? In order to ensure he would win in the present after he had already just beat Cloud?

Besides, we all know Seph could have killed them all any time he wanted to, what with the illusions and shapeshifting such.

I'm working on a theory that I want to iron out when I'm fully complete with the game but the tl;dr of it, is that Sephiroth's presence in the Shinra Building along side Jenova's presence essentially intensified the presence and strength of the Whispers (who were trying to protect potential paradoxical consequence of these two beings in proximity) to such a magnitude, they created a temporal distortion that was the equivalent of a human being's immune system when it overreacts to an antigen's presence in the body so badly, it creates a chain reaction that ultimately results in potential death.

A, temporal cytokine/Whisper storm.

Sephiroth triggered the reaction knowing it would essentially punch a hole into space-time and create a singularity that would allow him to "defy destiny" and subsequently make his ideal future, the world's future.

 

[Theozilla]

@Mako, I think Tres is asking why you think Sephiroth’s said plan specifically involved Zack though?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And the Zack part of my question? =P

EDIT: Thanks, @Theozilla

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because it was the furthest back into the past he could conceivably go find Cloud at his most vulnerable and by essentially keeping Cloud off his designated course, he could essentially short-circuit the development necessary for Cloud to be Cloud. If Sephiroth were to have his way, he could do anything he wanted in that moment in the past that would ultimately change the future and make his cheat his way to victory.

The Whispers seem inexorably linked to the chain of events that make up the conflict of FFVII, and the "beginning" of that conflict arguably starts with Zack trying to save Cloud and get to Midgar. The beginning, in a sense.

But that's the thing, it was the future where *they* won. Those scenes were taken straight from ACC. Red XIII 500 years in the future and everything. That's what's making me think it's a meta commentary on how all bets are gonna be off going forward. I hope I'm wrong, but man...this entire thing is confusing as fuck

Forgot to reply to this.

From an in-universe perspective, they have absolutely zero context or understanding of what they saw so it easily can be them misinterpreting what they see and thinking that. That's what I think, anyways. But I do think the writers are trying to communicate uncertainty and ambiguity about what's to come. Nomura even teased this in the first part of the "Making of FFVII Remake" youtube series. I just don't think they're going to go that wildly off FFVII's course. I think this ending was their way of ultimately introducing spontaneity into this project which would have been predictable, had it not been for this ending.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But that brings me back to these observations:

... he doesn't fly off to do anything about Zack once the singularity is in place.

If that's because he needed to beat Cloud and co. first, then why would he have needed to mess with Zack in the past to begin with? In order to ensure he would win in the present after he had already just beat Cloud from the present?

Besides, we all know Seph could have killed them all any time he wanted to, what with the illusions and shapeshifting and such.

Also, I can't see Seph passing on the opportunity to torture Cloud. He wants him like he is.

 

[Tetsujin]

But you see, we know how it has to go for it to be a good ending - while the characters themselves don't. They think because of the poor context they have that all of this happens at once, and clearly Sephiroth seems to be winning, so it must be the bad outcome.

As I said, I was taking it to be more of a meta commentary for the player, how much the characters understand of it isn't really important

 

[Eerie]

Maybe it is. But like Theozilla, I think it's a retelling of the OG so the beats are all going to be there for me. I guess we have to wait and see the devs' commentaries and what they say about next part, but yeah, I still think it's the OG plus some meta and very complicated stuff about mixing future and present.

 

[Tetsujin]

Like, I wanna believe they're not gonna go as crazy as one could assume from this but at the same time you gotta understand

I played all the Kingdom Hearts games

I have known true madness

 

[Eerie]

I'm.. I'm sorry... it made me laugh... I usually play MMOs so I stayed away from KH and other stuff tbh :')

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that brings me back to these observations:

Towards your first and second points, I figured it was an ego flex. He wanted to crush Cloud and the others, and then ultimately reduce them to nothing.

And as to your point of making Cloud fucked up mentally and torturing him, I thought that's what his 7 seconds to the end line was. A bait to dare Aerith or Cloud to interfere or try to do something with the limited time they had left. And ultimately fuck the present up and do his work for him.

Ultimately it's hard to definitively pain down something concrete but going by the sequence of events, Sephiroth's ambitions as stated by his statements, and overall behavior throughout. I thought it made sense

 

[Theozilla]

I have played all the KH games too, and as convoluted as its plot is, its setting is ultimately a Disney crossover game. Allowing for bullshit is kinda inherent to its DNA. The Remake has more inherent limits to, even if Nojima and Nomura want to go into even weirder Lifestream/Planet stuff.

So yeah, the basic plot line of the OG I expect to be followed, but I think the meta stuff is partially there to signal that the filling of the pie can/will be different. For example, I am expecting there be significant changes to how the Wutai plot line will portrayed, or how Cid and Shera’s relationship is portrayed, and I am definitely expecting the Huge Materia quests to be modified a lot, same with how the Tiny Bronco will portrayed and used.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Towards your first and second points, I figured it was an ego flex. He wanted to crush Cloud and the others, and then ultimately reduce them to nothing.

Where did "cheating his way to victory" go?

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

Honestly, I don't see them doing that. I feel like the entirety of the Arbiters of Fate shit were a means to give the Remake it's own standalone conclusion and a means for the writers to subvert expectations and show, "yes, there will be changes, no, you won't be able to predict the future." Like, I think it's a way to make us, the audience, now embrace the uncertainty and not just have us expect what our preconceived notions of this project are.

I'm sorry we disagreed earlier and while I agree that my points were picky I am just still trying to make sense of the last chapters and the whisperers. I do like this explanation and that SE are making a new story with the OG parts as well. And I am genuinely excited as to how they do it and to see which character "defies fate." If any.



Does that mean it won't be FFVII-R? No, it'll remain FFVII in it's DNA. However they will be creative and it will have change. It's just something to wait for and see.

And the fight within that singularity you had allowed for the past to be seen and nearly effected. Sephiroth seemingly wanted to change the past at "Destiny's Crossroads." By changing the past, the twisted future he showed you would have been reality. Because Zack.. would not allow Cloud to be Cloud then.

He wanted to fast-forward to the part he won.

With the obvious changes, is it time travel or whatever, I'm sorry still hella confused. Sephiroth does state he doesn't want the world to end as his has changed or is he just lying? I did like that he made no sense what so ever just away for Cloud and the player to be even more confused.

I'm just hoping with the time travel or whatever it is that Genesis is wiped from the pages of time. Honestly I can forgive the whole changes etc and started to replay the game again to take it all in again and enjoy the new storylines, however one thing I was truly hoping that Genesis would not be added but I guess we are not getting away from that character.

Even that's ambiguous because, I thought they were referring to stopping Sephiroth and preventing him from achieving his goal. They prevented Sephiroth from changing the past, however Sephiroth's still out there and he still of course has the original plan to summon Meteor as well.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Where did "cheating his way to victory" go?

It's still there. Because by them no longer existing and stopping Meteor, he's ultimately free to do as he pleases and he invokes Meteor with minimal resistance and complete success. It's a complete 180 over how FFVII concludes.

It's sorta like the Episode of Doctor Who with the 10th Doctor, where the Daleks break free from the time lock in place around the "Last Great Time War" with Gallifrey and the Daleks attempted to win the war by simply time-traveling out of it, and conquering universe from that point on. However, they ultimately fail in the present and get sent back to their own time, where they lose.