SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's still there. Because by them no longer existing and stopping Meteor, he's ultimately free to do as he pleases and he invokes Meteor with minimal resistance and complete success. It's a complete 180 over how FFVII concludes.

You're missing my point. If he has to beat them to do the Zack thing, and has to do the Zack thing to "cheat his way to victory," then he has already met this supposed need for minimal resistance because he's already beaten Cloud. In which case, he didn't cheat his way to victory at all. And didn't need to mess with the past or Zack to get victory.

Also, I keep making these other points that you won't respond to:

- He was always watching them and could have killed them all at any time he wanted by gutting them in an item shop or in their sleep (he can shapeshift, conjure illusions, fly, etc.)

- Seph only meets resistance in his plan for Meteor in the first place because he dicks around with Cloud and the others, tells them what he's planning, and baits them into wanting to stop him; they never even needed to know about it

- He wants Cloud to suffer, not just die; a victory where Cloud hasn't been psychologically and emotionally tortured is empty for Seph

 

[Alex Strife]

@Alex Strife
Look at you, getting and beating it before official release!

I don't even know how that happened, to be honest!

I was completely convinced I'd get it on the 12th or 13th or... ironically, the virus situation got me the game earlier!

Going back on topic, I've been thinking (lightly, I've been playing a lot, it's late and I'm tired) and it does feel like anything is possible going forward.

But then again, I also kind of get the feeling that it's relatively easy to keep the main beats of the OG while including all sorts of crazy shenanigans. What storyline stuff I expect them to keep from the OG? Let's see, roughly:

- Kalm flashback
- Junon + infiltration
- Corel backstory (Dyne stuff) + Gold Saucer
- Gongaga stuff, a few changes?
- Cosmo Canyon + Gi (Nanaki's background)
- Nibelheim + Vincent (+Lucrecia, eventually)
- Cid + Shera, all Rocket Town background
- Wutai + Yuffie
- Temple of Ancients
- Aerith's death.
- North Crater general feel (probably changed circumstances, etc.)
- Weapons attacking the Planet
- Cloud's backstory, finding out who he really is/was, etc
- Some Sister Ray stuff
- Closure with Heidegger, Scarlet, Palmer, Hojo
- Final fight with Sephiroth

Everything else is fair game, isn't it? I get the feeling that Square's going to try to keep these moments, probably considered by many to be iconic enough to "make the cut". While at the same time, they'd create a new storyline with the building blocks they've started to introduce in this first game.

I think I'm not going to be too wrong... but then again, who knows? Fun times, though!

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're missing my point. If he has to beat them to do the Zack thing, and has to do the Zack thing to "cheat his way to victory," then he has already met this supposed need for minimal resistance because he's already beaten Cloud. In which case, he didn't cheat his way to victory at all. And didn't need to mess with the past or Zack to get victory.

Also, I keep making these other points that you won't respond to:

- He was always watching them and could have killed them all at any time he wanted by gutting them in an item shop or in their sleep (he can shapeshift, conjure illusions, fly, etc.)

- Seph only meets resistance in his plan for Meteor in the first place because he dicks around with Cloud and the others, tells them what he's planning, and baits them into wanting to stop him; they never even needed to know about it

- He wants Cloud to suffer, not just die; a victory where Cloud hasn't been psychologically and emotionally tortured is empty for Seph

.... Well fuck, it made sense in my head.

I mean. Now see your point in how it's redundant. But clearly. There was some sort of motivation or intent. I thought the singularity reaching to the past was a potential point of interest. What other reason could he have had then?

I mean ultimately Sephiroth could have just beat them or whatever. But else would Sephiroth want to accomplish via deconstructing time and going to the Shinra Building and baiting out a fight?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Something to do with this, probably:

 

[Darudius]

I don't even know how that happened, to be honest!

I was completely convinced I'd get it on the 12th or 13th or... ironically, the virus situation got me the game earlier!

Going back on topic, I've been thinking (lightly, I've been playing a lot, it's late and I'm tired) and it does feel like anything is possible going forward.

But then again, I also kind of get the feeling that it's relatively easy to keep the main beats of the OG while including all sorts of crazy shenanigans. What storyline stuff I expect them to keep from the OG? Let's see, roughly:

- Kalm flashback
- Junon + infiltration
- Corel backstory (Dyne stuff) + Gold Saucer
- Gongaga stuff, a few changes?
- Cosmo Canyon + Gi (Nanaki's background)
- Nibelheim + Vincent (+Lucrecia, eventually)
- Cid + Shera, all Rocket Town background
- Wutai + Yuffie
- Temple of Ancients
- Aerith's death.
- North Crater general feel (probably changed circumstances, etc.)
- Weapons attacking the Planet
- Cloud's backstory, finding out who he really is/was, etc
- Some Sister Ray stuff
- Closure with Heidegger, Scarlet, Palmer, Hojo
- Final fight with Sephiroth

Everything else is fair game, isn't it? I get the feeling that Square's going to try to keep these moments, probably considered by many to be iconic enough to "make the cut". While at the same time, they'd create a new storyline with the building blocks they've started to introduce in this first game.

I think I'm not going to be too wrong... but then again, who knows? Fun times, though!

Really hope they keep the cloud finding his backstory part. That whole sequence is one of my favourite parts of the OG. Hopefully it's not changed to much or cut completely.

 

[Theozilla]

Perhaps the singularity giving Sephiroth a pocket dimension to fight in and manipulate stuff in was just a bonus benefit and his main purpose was to drive the Whispers nuts (to use the allergic reaction analogy) and get Cloud and co. to either weaken it or beat it so he could absorb its power?
And if he couldn’t destroy Cloud and co. then and there he can still fall back on getting Cloud out of Midgar and retrieving the Black Materia for him (since Sephiroth Copies seem expire easily and he doesn’t want to sacrifice more of Jenova’s flesh, plus he gets to mess with Cloud more, which Sephiroth loves doing, even in the OG).

 

[OWA-2]

I just realized that, now that Sephiroth's clones can become literal copies of him, the same could happen to Cloud(another clone), if Sephiroth ever wanted it.
Damn.

 

[Theozilla]

I don’t think so, I think they need to have been mentally degenerated for that to happen. Cloud is like half way between the standard Sephiroth copy status and Zack’s no effects status.

 

[Firstone33]

I don’t think so, I think they need to have been mentally degenerated for that to happen. Cloud is like half way between the standard Sephiroth copy status and Zack’s no effects status.

I found out in original they were going to use a story element that cloud would be Sephiroth's vessel and use him to get what he wanted but part of it was scraped and became what we know now it was one of the early story concepts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've always thought that if Cloud were to have lost that final post-Safer Sephiroth battle, Seph would have taken his body.

 

[Wol]

https://gfycat.com/frequentwelllitconure

Lol I hope they at least try to explain why his power levels go to 77777 so fast, in my head its just the singularity messing with him.

I agree with Tetsuijin though, the last sword doesnt fit much, Buster Sword everyday.

 

[oty]

I mean, at Chapter 6 isnt there like a point you cant jump across a couple feet fallen bridge? At chapter 4 he literally just rocketed to Roche's bike. Wouldnt be surprised if they were just, "yea...nope"

 

[Theozilla]

Besides strength/power feats being prone to inconsistency in fantasy video games, in addition to the singularity making thing wonky, perhaps their power sorta increases as they fight, like their inner strength has to “warm up” for lack of a better term. Like how in ACC when Cloud activates his limits, he can produce blue aura?

 

[Wol]

Rekt

He definitely has control of the heartless here, I dont know what makes the party think they defeated fate?

They didnt beat Sephiroth, he still showed the same Meteor falling either during the fight or the cutscene before it and the ghosts were still around under his control?

and if the ghosts/fate are the will of the planet as Red implied, why Aerith felt the need to defy it?

 

[Tetsujin]

Rekt

Ah, so that's what happens when the countdown ends? I shat my pants when he counted down but managed to beat him. Part of me wanted to let him finish to see what happens...probably a good thing I didn't

 

[Firstone33]

Rekt

He definitely has control of the heartless here, I dont know what makes the party think they defeated fate?

They didnt beat Sephiroth, he still showed the same Meteor falling either during the fight or the cutscene before it and the ghosts were still around under his control?

and if the ghosts/fate are the will of the planet as Red implied, why Aerith felt the need to defy it?

If you do an enemy scan on the three whispers it will tell you where they come from and your whole perspective on them will change

It seems from what I read and seen that this version of ffvii is about defying fate, I know one thing the arbiters seem to want a desolate future one the heroes fail yet at same time seems like they want them to save it.

Not even sure myself on that but seems a plausible theory at the moment until part 2 is out

 

[Wol]

Why the whispers didnt show the party positive visions about the future, if they wanted to convince them to not change it? Like the shit amount of Lifestream during the end, or the party defeating semi-gods?

Either because those streams of visions were random, or Sephiroth managed to control what they've seen... the whispers were howling in pain, after all...

Im already expecting whatever explanation they come with to cause plot-holes... as its common to some fan theories to be more well-thought and interesting than the official explanation.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, arguably they did see a positive vision (Nanaki running up to the cliff to look out across the overgrown Midgar). But even without the stuff Sephiroth was showing them, an image of humankind's biggest hub turned into a forest would probably look alarming. In conjunction with what he was showing, though, it would look really bad.

 

[Wol]

Well, arguably they did see a positive vision (Nanaki running up to the cliff to look out across the overgrown Midgar). But even without the stuff Sephiroth was showing them, an image of humankind's biggest hub turned into a forest would probably look alarming. In conjunction with what he was showing, though, it would look really bad.

Exactly, if I wanted to convince someone I would use clearer visions representing positive moments.

They could have used dozens of moments to show them, if they really had control of those visions. Only explanation I can think of is that Seph showed them what he wanted them to see, to trick them into following another set of events, and have a new chance at winning big this time.

 

[Tetsujin]

Why the whispers didnt show the party positive visions about the future, if they wanted to convince them to not change it?

Because they only had access to the Advent Children Blu-ray at the time apparently

 

[Alex Strife]

Do the whispers come from OUR timeline?! It's becoming clear enough that our timeline is a doomed one, after all

 

[Misterbadguy]

Cleared the game a couple of hours ago. I think I'm more into the idea of what they're trying to do with the whole "fate isn't set in stone" thing than the portrayal of it in the game itself. I'm particularly not a huge fan of the Whispers being tangible and physically forcing things to proceed as they should; I'd rather they act subliminally or implicitly, over blatantly shoving Wedge out a window or reviving Barret as soon as he's stabbed.

 

[Gazzdw]

What if the whispers are protecting a different storyline to the original, that upon now defeating them, actually leads to the events of the Original playing out as normal (for the most part)? Seph showed them visions of his intended plan but instead claims its what the whispers are protecting

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What if the whispers are protecting a different storyline to the original, that upon now defeating them, actually leads to the events of the Original playing out as normal (for the most part)?

I guess anything is still possible, but the Whispers most certainly were protecting things necessary for the original game's story (e.g. not letting Reno or Barret die) while also showing visions of the same (e.g. the fall of Sector 7).

If they're protecting a different timeline from that of the original game, it's been approximately the same up to now.

 

[oty]

The Whispers were the cause of the visions? I always thought that was Sephiroth's meddling to prompt Cloud in certain directions, and since that is a disturbance in the time continuum, the Whispers show up whenever that happens. But I guess, Sephiroth partly controls the Whispers or something? My head hurts lol