SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Theozilla]

I don’t know if the game/narrative wants us to view them as just adversaries, especially since Red XIII explicitly refers to them as neutral force. I think it’s more complicated than 100% opposed or allied/controlled between Sephiroth and the Whispers.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He wants to defy fate while they are fate's avatars. That's close enough to adversaries, no?

At any rate, it's certainly an adversarial relationship. He swats them away like gnats, they revive the guy he just killed, etc.

 

[cold_spirit]

Before I take a deep dive into Chapter 18 discussion and become influenced by other people's opinions, I want to share my naive thoughts on the ending.

Having played through the FF13 trilogy, I know what to expect from Yoshinori Kitase as producer. Likewise, having played through the mainline KH games, I know what to expect from Tetsuya Nomura as director. With that background, I felt prepared for the style of storytelling we received regarding the Whispers. Which is to say, I prepared for the new plot elements to be nonsensical, follow the rule of cool, and, most importantly, be shrouded in mystery to force fan discussion. From Kitase himself: "we like delivering surprises." Personally, I feel this style of storytelling relies too heavily on shock value and muddles with theming. It does have advantages though. I was enthralled by the mystery of the Whispers. Whenever I wasn't playing the game, my mind was processing whatever clues I had picked up on them. I bet there's a mountain of valid criticism out there, but the Whispers allowed me to be engaged with the world of FF7 again, which I'm at least a little grateful for.

I want to mention FF7R's meta-narrative. Personally, I love meta-narratives! Metal Gear Solid 2, Danganronpa V3, Nier, these games are my jam. That's why I was so intrigued by the Whispers. I don't think it's a stretch to say their addition to the story is a commentary on this being a remake. I actually think they're a pretty clever idea! Some players may be surprised at how radically the Whispers influence the ending. As someone who wrote down their thoughts as they played the game, I feel they were certainly foreshadowed. I don't really care for the barrier of Whispers the party crosses over nor do I like the debris vortex world they're brought to, but hey, rule of cool. Had the party fought the Whispers/Sephiroth at the end of the highway and the dialog been more natural and direct, I would've loved everything about them.

Well, maybe not everything. I am reluctant to give my thoughts on how the Whispers affected Zack's last stand. They clearly did something. The man didn't get blown off his feet for nothing. Someday we'll come to understand all of it, but that won't be soon. We just don't know what's up. That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing! I just want to preemptively encourage everyone to remain open-minded and humble as we look forward to the next part.

To me, the remake's biggest draw was the opportunity it provided to bask in the sights and sounds of FF7's world. Beyond that, I set my expectations appropriately, especially considering I have not liked a game from Kitase or Nomura in over a decade. However, FF7R did surprise me. Not just in shock value, as I mentioned earlier, but in characterization and worldbuilding. These two dudes understand more about what makes FF7 endearing than I've given them credit for. For example, the remake's characterization of Tifa is an improvement over the original. I like her now more than ever. Additionally, how the remake incorporates the original's wacky enemy designs into the environment is thoughtful worldbuilding. There's so much I love about this game that it makes my concerns with it seem small. What truly concerns me is how the remake's issues may cause other players to overlook all the good it offers.

I want to thank anyone who read my dumb bullet point lists on each chapter. There's been big releases in the past I've gone through with no one to share my experience with. It sucks! By writing down my thoughts, I feel I was able to process the game in a much more healthy way. Even so, it's been equally awesome and exhausting. And therein lies another testament to just how good FF7 is. We made it through the Compilation. Someday we'll see the end of the remake. We'll stick it out, thick and thin, because that's how much we love this set of world and characters. This site is as important to my experience with the remake as the remake itself. Finally, shout out to @Lex whose passion keeps this corner of the internet safe.

Before I begin my next playthrough, it's time I do something I really need but haven't done in the ten days since receiving the remake: go for a fucking walk.

P.S. I have a feeling that any discussion on Motor Ball has been completely overshadowed by discussion of the ending. Well, I just want Motor Ball to know that I see you. You were amazing. Truly the unsung hero of the remake.

 

[Theozilla]

He wants to defy fate while they are fate's avatars. That's close enough to adversaries, no?

At any rate, it's certainly an adversarial relationship. He swats them away like gnats, they revive the guy he just killed, etc.

I just don’t think it’s 100% adversarial, same way the WEAPONs are supposed to be fighting Sephiroth but he messes them up to his advantage.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

So I beat the game earlier this afternoon, and wanted to give myself a few hours to process it before I came in here to start talking about it. (Also I had a headache that I needed to get rid of )

I'll write my thoughts about the other chapters in their respective threads, but this chapter is obviously the most divisive, which I was expecting after spoiling myself before hand. But I didn't expect it to be this much of a mindfuck. It's a lot to unpack, so I guess I'll start with some of my simpler thoughts:

I'm really unsure of what to think as far as these themes of destiny and fate go, and being 'fixed' points in the universe.

Nanaki tells us (and I'm paraphrasing because I cba to find the exact quote right now) that Destiny's course cannot be altered.
Aerith then tells us before we cross into Singularity that we'd 'be changing fate itself' and once in Singularity says that 'the future is always a blank page'
And then Sephiroth tell us that 'that which lies ahead does not yet exist".

Ok bottom line is I don't even know where I'm going with all of this, but is the point of all this that they're trying to convince the characters that the OG timeline they get future glimpses of, is, for lack of a better word, the 'wrong' one? And is Sephiroth trying to convince them (mainly Cloud) to defy Destiny (since apparently he's read ahead in the script and knows he gets his ass whooped several times down the line), so that what he tries to achieve in the OG timeline actually comes to pass.

Someone HELP ME, my brain is melting.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's pretty much where the consensus is as Sephiroth's goings and doings apply.

 

[Aphyo]

I don't have much of a clue, but I am kicking the idea around in my head that Sephiroth manipulated the situation to pit our heroes against the whispers. Then, when the heroes "win", Sephiroth gets what he ultimately wanted, the timeline diverging away from the original FFVII. Is that what other people are thinking, I have no idea. What I do know is I hate this time travel, alternate timeline junk.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm in the middle of Chapter 17 now, and given what I've seen, I believe I may be onto what's going on here. I have yet to see the entirety of the ending, however given what the lead up has been thus far, the clues lead me to this conclusion. And I think I may at least be close to what's being intended here.

Simply put, this is a retelling of the plot of FFVII. In the most literal sense; in-universe to the narrative. It's a loop which is now being played out so that some force may witness the planet's fate, and make an accurate judgment.

The ones that were doing the judging, are the Arbiters of Fate. I think the name is meant to be a clear hint at their purpose. As is their appearance. Black hooded robes, in the style of judges or executioners. Their intention is to witness the depiction of the "case" in question, and ensure that it lines up to how it was done, so that an accurate observation can unfold. They are created from the past that shaped them, which they are then tasked with holding in place so an accurate judgment may be made. Because if not, the entire situation could collapse and lead to their destruction.

These "arbiters" are needed not only for judgment but as a control in some sense. Because the characters are able to recall fragments of memories or visions of what happened originally and potentially alter what had happened before.

First off, Sephiroth is not the only person who has uncanny awareness of the future. However he is the one that has the most awareness. That is because more of his memories have remained, allowing him awareness of the situation.

Aerith seems to have acquired vague awareness, akin to deja vu of what is going on. After Cloud falls into the church, her awareness begins to grow. This is fully demonstrated when Cloud asks if she heard of Sephiroth, after having the horrifying vision of Sephiroth telling him "The Reunion is nothing to fear." The camera purposefully hides the top half of Aerith's face, to obscure her expression as she blankly gives a vague answer over him just being a hero who was KIA. Aerith knew Red XIII by sight. She said, "This child is a friend." That's not a vision, that's awareness. Recollection. Familiarity. And that knowledge passes onto Red. Tifa point-blank asks Aerith what does she know, and as Aerith begins to explain, the Whispers become frenzied, and Aerith begins to choose her words very carefully. She holds dim awareness but is also aware that she cannot stray too far from "the path." She feels "lost in a maze" because she's moving away from what is the fixed course set before her.

Marlene acquires vague awareness when she meets Aerith in Seventh Heaven before the plate collapse. While Aerith introduces herself and comforts her, the screen does the classic static effect, and Marlene has a look of recognition. And she's about to ask if they met, but Aerith immediately shushes her, as if it's meant to be a secret. This is a huge hint about the situation. Marlene has always been spiritually aware, and she seems to have some knowledge that she "knew" her already.

The visions Cloud has of the white materia, it falling in the water, and then the tear from his eye, are from Cloud's unconscious memories, buried deep in his subconscious. He's remembering however he doesn't know why or understand the feelings they're eliciting. The vision he had of the plate collapse, wasn't a vision. It was a memory.

The question is.

Why is this all happening?

And I think it's because Holy is making a "judgment" for the planet and humanity is on trial.

I think that somehow, Holy is making a literal assessment of humanity's worthiness of a future, by judging what has happened in FFVII. And it's doing this by restarting it, and seeing for itself where it leads and if it would be worth saving the planet over. The arbiters are from the future, ensuring that the present follows the course that it must. Because for the planet to reach a conclusion that allows humanity to survive in the future, it must accurately see what has unfolded. If it does not, then the potential exists for the previous efforts that were accomplished to have been in vain and judgment annihilates humanity.

Spoiler: Dialogue from FFVII

Bugenhagen
The knowledge of the Ancients swirling around here is telling me one thing.
The planet's in a crisis...
A crisis beyond human power or endless time.
It says, when the time comes, we must search for 'Holy'.


Cloud
Holy?

Bugenhagen

Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor.
If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear.
Ho Ho Hooo.
Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear.
Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud
Even us!?

Bugenhagen
It is up to the planet to decide.
What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet.
All that is bad will disappear. That is all.
Ho Ho Hooo.
I wonder which we humans are?

The word "disappear" seems an interesting choice, given how if something were to go wrong in the past.. It's future wouldn't just be destroyed, it would disappear.

Even if it isn't Holy specifically, I believe it's some force connected to the Planet itself. And I think these "visions" aren't actually visions of the future per se. They're memories of what had occurred before. The Remake's portrayal is deceptively upfront and straightforward when you think about it. The characters are remembering things from FFVII. It's not so much time travel, as it is a time-rewind. And the reason why Sephiroth wanted the Whispers summarily destroyed and removed as a control, is so that he gets a second chance to win. If he wins and throws off destiny, Holy fails, the planet is his, and he will endure. And he tempts Cloud because he wants to tease Cloud with the possibility of changing the past, and consequently doom the planet.

This leads to many directions, but ultimately it has to line up with FFVII because if it doesn't, the planet dies or punishes humanity. But I'm fairly positive now that this isn't a time travel plot in the literal sense. It's a loop, or replay. A literal replay/remake being performed to decide once more if the planet is worthy to be saved.

Maybe that's not how I'll feel later on but this is the most sensical explanation I've come up with given what I've witnessed.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As harebrained as Kitase, Nomura, Nojima, etc. can be on their worst day, I would like to think they know better than to go "Surprise! Everyone's just been in the Animus this entire time, and you've been playing 'Assassin's Fantasy VII'!"

 

[Kratos]

As harebrained as Kitase, Nomura, Nojima, etc. can be on their worst day, I would like to think they know better than to go "Surprise! Everyone's just been in the Animus this entire time, and you've been playing 'Assassin's Fantasy VII'!"

I dunno, I think that could work depending on how it's presented. I would certainly prefer it to Reality-Hopping AC Sephiroth.

 

[Theozilla]

I'm in the middle of Chapter 17 now, and given what I've seen, I believe I may be onto what's going on here. I have yet to see the entirety of the ending, however given what the lead up has been thus far, the clues lead me to this conclusion. And I think I may at least be close to what's being intended here.

Simply put, this is a retelling of the plot of FFVII. In the most literal sense; in-universe to the narrative. It's a loop which is now being played out so that some force may witness the planet's fate, and make an accurate judgment.

The ones that were doing the judging, are the Arbiters of Fate. I think the name is meant to be a clear hint at their purpose. As is their appearance. Black hooded robes, in the style of judges or executioners. Their intention is to witness the depiction of the "case" in question, and ensure that it lines up to how it was done, so that an accurate observation can unfold. They are created from the past that shaped them, which they are then tasked with holding in place so an accurate judgment may be made. Because if not, the entire situation could collapse and lead to their destruction.

These "arbiters" are needed not only for judgment but as a control in some sense. Because the characters are able to recall fragments of memories or visions of what happened originally and potentially alter what had happened before.

First off, Sephiroth is not the only person who has uncanny awareness of the future. However he is the one that has the most awareness. That is because more of his memories have remained, allowing him awareness of the situation.

Aerith seems to have acquired vague awareness, akin to deja vu of what is going on. After Cloud falls into the church, her awareness begins to grow. This is fully demonstrated when Cloud asks if she heard of Sephiroth, after having the horrifying vision of Sephiroth telling him "The Reunion is nothing to fear." The camera purposefully hides the top half of Aerith's face, to obscure her expression as she blankly gives a vague answer over him just being a hero who was KIA. Aerith knew Red XIII by sight. She said, "This child is a friend." That's not a vision, that's awareness. Recollection. Familiarity. And that knowledge passes onto Red. Tifa point-blank asks Aerith what does she know, and as Aerith begins to explain, the Whispers become frenzied, and Aerith begins to choose her words very carefully. She holds dim awareness but is also aware that she cannot stray too far from "the path." She feels "lost in a maze" because she's moving away from what is the fixed course set before her.

Marlene acquires vague awareness when she meets Aerith in Seventh Heaven before the plate collapse. While Aerith introduces herself and comforts her, the screen does the classic static effect, and Marlene has a look of recognition. And she's about to ask if they met, but Aerith immediately shushes her, as if it's meant to be a secret. This is a huge hint about the situation. Marlene has always been spiritually aware, and she seems to have some knowledge that she "knew" her already.

The visions Cloud has of the white materia, it falling in the water, and then the tear from his eye, are from Cloud's unconscious memories, buried deep in his subconscious. He's remembering however he doesn't know why or understand the feelings they're eliciting. The vision he had of the plate collapse, wasn't a vision. It was a memory.

The question is.

Why is this all happening?

And I think it's because Holy is making a "judgment" for the planet and humanity is on trial.

I think that somehow, Holy is making a literal assessment of humanity's worthiness of a future, by judging what has happened in FFVII. And it's doing this by restarting it, and seeing for itself where it leads and if it would be worth saving the planet over. The arbiters are from the future, ensuring that the present follows the course that it must. Because for the planet to reach a conclusion that allows humanity to survive in the future, it must accurately see what has unfolded. If it does not, then the potential exists for the previous efforts that were accomplished to have been in vain and judgment annihilates humanity.

Spoiler: Dialogue from FFVII

Bugenhagen
The knowledge of the Ancients swirling around here is telling me one thing.
The planet's in a crisis...
A crisis beyond human power or endless time.
It says, when the time comes, we must search for 'Holy'.


Cloud
Holy?

Bugenhagen

Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor.
If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear.
Ho Ho Hooo.
Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear.
Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud
Even us!?

Bugenhagen
It is up to the planet to decide.
What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet.
All that is bad will disappear. That is all.
Ho Ho Hooo.
I wonder which we humans are?

The word "disappear" seems an interesting choice, given how if something were to go wrong in the past.. It's future wouldn't just be destroyed, it would disappear.

Even if it isn't Holy specifically, I believe it's some force connected to the Planet itself. And I think these "visions" aren't actually visions of the future per se. They're memories of what had occurred before. The Remake's portrayal is deceptively upfront and straightforward when you think about it. The characters are remembering things from FFVII. It's not so much time travel, as it is a time-rewind. And the reason why Sephiroth wanted the Whispers summarily destroyed and removed as a control, is so that he gets a second chance to win. If he wins and throws off destiny, Holy fails, the planet is his, and he will endure. And he tempts Cloud because he wants to tease Cloud with the possibility of changing the past, and consequently doom the planet.

This leads to many directions, but ultimately it has to line up with FFVII because if it doesn't, the planet dies or punishes humanity. But I'm fairly positive now that this isn't a time travel plot in the literal sense. It's a loop, or replay. A literal replay/remake being performed to decide once more if the planet is worthy to be saved.

Maybe that's not how I'll feel later on but this is the most sensical explanation I've come up with given what I've witnessed.

Eehhhh, I really don’t think that’s what is being intended in the Remake. I don’t think the Remake is doing a Rebuild of a Evangelion where it’s an in-universe reboot/loop.

I am pretty sure Aerith is able to tell that Red XIII is a teenager equivalent simply because it’s meant to illustrate her Cetra spiritual powers/awareness, not because she already “knows” him from a previous time loop.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I dunno, Aerith's awareness has steadily moved from mere awareness in a metaphysical sense, to outright familiarity to the situations.

Marlene's reaction to her is what first planted the seeds in my head. Because the fact Aerith shushed her when Marlene was about to ask if she knew her before was... Very interesting. That, and the previous strange scene with Aerith's face being hidden when asked about Sephiroth.

It seems like one of those "hidden in front of your face" type answers.

 

[Odysseus]

Hi I'm here now. What the fuck am I supposed to do in the phase where you can't hurt Sephiroth?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hi I'm here now. What the fuck am I supposed to do in the phase where you can't hurt Sephiroth?

....Accept your end and be a puppet?

I honestly don't know either, I too would appreciate an answer

 

[Odysseus]

Oh my fucking god my game glitched. The first time I got to the phase where he summons meteor I couldn't target him at all. Holy shit. Great game square.

 

[Tetsujin]

There is a phase where you can't hurt him?

 

[Odysseus]

No, the game broke. I couldn't target him the first time he did his count down. I beat him now.

 

[Jimmy XH]

I'm in the thread, but don't expect much from me until I can process what on earth happened in the last few hours.

I thought they were going to just walk to the end of the road, climb down that wire and head off to Kalm...

 

[Tetsujin]

I thought they were going to just walk to the end of the road, climb down that wire and head off to Kalm...

 

[oty]

hahahah this is gonna be great, r

 

[Odysseus]

YOU WERE FUCKING RIGHT @oty ! MY MIND IS THOUROUGLY BLOWN! FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK THEY ARE ALIVE! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I don't even care about any of the other crazy bullshit! Biggs and Jessie are ALIVE!
10000000000000000000/10, I might literally die.
Holy fuck. I need a minute.

 

[oty]

you now have 33pages of catching up to do lmao

but yea, its pretty insane

 

[Odysseus]

you now have 33pages of catching up to do lmao

but yea, its pretty insane

Yeah I'll be getting to that. You assholes knew the whole time, that's why you were so conspicuously silent. Jesus. I love you guys. I'm so god damned happy right now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Best thing about the Biggs reveal was listening to Lex on his stream sigh out "Lord above" at that moment, like he was close to giving up on a hopeless friend.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah well, fuck Lex not really, love you Lex I'm so fucking solid right now. I can't wait to see where this is going.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, the Buster Sword redesign was just a redesign, and not a plot point.

0/10, I owe my friend $5 now. God damn it Square.

Edit: Also, I gotta know @Makoeyes987, which one of us beat it first? It was fun trying to race you.