SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
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Lex
Administrator
As an aside I've just processed this statement and as a person who was actively looking for a way to lose the battle I'm mildly offended by this notion
If getting a game over there was in any way meaningful I'd be interested to look at the metrics of players who just gave up to preserve OG canon. I'm certainly one of them.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
I mean it's meaningful enough in the The Legend of Zelda franchise, where losing in Ocarina of Time apparently creates an entirely new timeline separate from the Adult and Child timelines. Also if you ever played a Yoko Taro game, there are usually ending scenarios for various game overs.As an aside I've just processed this statement and as a person who was actively looking for a way to lose the battle I'm mildly offended by this notion
If getting a game over there was in any way meaningful I'd be interested to look at the metrics of players who just gave up to preserve OG canon. I'm certainly one of them.
Zee
wangxian married
- AKA
- Zee
Okay lemme make some kind of attempt at organizing my thoughts here:
I was kind of on board with the idea that we could mess with certain events of the original based on player choices. I even felt like Cloud and Aerith knowing her fate (well, Cloud getting the visions at least) could even add some interesting depth to how all that plays out -- Aerith knowing she has to die for the planet vs Cloud knowing Sephiroth plans but being unable to fight him on it ...could make it even more heartbreaking the more they're aware of it tbh. But this is Nomura, so we can't just have a system where we watch a narrative play out slightly differently, we have to fight a literal fucking fate monster in a kingdom heart style zero gravity 30 minute boss marathon with peppered in cutscenes and it's all just so fucking exhausting and stupid. It feels like a very bad photoshop job where you can instantly tell what doesn't belong in the picture.
Also, how the hell are new players supposed to process this? I feel like this entire defying fate thing only means something to people who played the OG -- even the characters themselves aren't 100% clear what fate they're fighting until you're halfway through the boss battle.
The funniest part is you could literally cut that entire fate segment out, have them step out of Midgar while passing by the memory of Zack and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing. I've never seen a more meaningless spectacle.
(Also, now Biggs and Wedge are alive so we're just. Undercutting the emotions of one of the most tragic scenes in the game huh).
I was kind of on board with the idea that we could mess with certain events of the original based on player choices. I even felt like Cloud and Aerith knowing her fate (well, Cloud getting the visions at least) could even add some interesting depth to how all that plays out -- Aerith knowing she has to die for the planet vs Cloud knowing Sephiroth plans but being unable to fight him on it ...could make it even more heartbreaking the more they're aware of it tbh. But this is Nomura, so we can't just have a system where we watch a narrative play out slightly differently, we have to fight a literal fucking fate monster in a kingdom heart style zero gravity 30 minute boss marathon with peppered in cutscenes and it's all just so fucking exhausting and stupid. It feels like a very bad photoshop job where you can instantly tell what doesn't belong in the picture.
Also, how the hell are new players supposed to process this? I feel like this entire defying fate thing only means something to people who played the OG -- even the characters themselves aren't 100% clear what fate they're fighting until you're halfway through the boss battle.
The funniest part is you could literally cut that entire fate segment out, have them step out of Midgar while passing by the memory of Zack and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing. I've never seen a more meaningless spectacle.
(Also, now Biggs and Wedge are alive so we're just. Undercutting the emotions of one of the most tragic scenes in the game huh).
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Dude doesn't even try to lift his sword to defend himself. It's even still in the same position in the shot where Cloud's sword is connecting. Seph just smiles and allows Cloud to land a completely ineffective blow, and then proceeds to humiliate him.
I will never understand how any of you guys are seeing this entire fight sequence as anything other than Sephiroth amusing himself at their expense. What am I missing?
Like, seriously, Mako, how do these two thoroughly contradictory paragraphs end up next to each other?
I mean, I did say that for all of Cloud's impressive Advent Children-esque abilities, none of them were able to stick mono-a-mono. He wasn't hanging with Sephiroth one-on-one here. Not just because Sephiroth was toying with him, but because Cloud was too weak; he could not even open up Sephiroth a little. Let alone close the fight. And what you showed here is what I was referring to.
I think the fact that each escalation Sephiroth attempted on Cloud, was interrupted by the timely arrival of an additional adversary, prompted Sephiroth to go for an AoE that would wipe all opponents in one fell swoop. Deciding to just drop a nuke on a fight you are supposedly in full control of, gives the impression you're wanting to end the fight immediately.
He actually did prepare to stab Cloud, he enters his fighting stance right before getting kicked back by Tifa. She just got there so fast, Sephiroth didn't have much time to do it. Due to the fact he was gloating so heavily.
I mean, you see Sephiroth wobbling, and clutching his chest as the Whispers burst from his body. It gives the appearance he's lost some manner of control over the power he gained due to the damage he's incurred or energy he's exerted.
Sephiroth carries a look of annoyance and frustration at Aerith's words and everyone's resolve as he regains his footing. He does an annoyed sneer. Right after he just wobbled and hunched over while some of his power leaked out of him. Doesn't look as poised or in control as before.
Sephiroth then does a desperate, straightforward, head-on shot of Whispers at the heroes; apparently not foreseeing Aerith being able to brush them aside like broccoli she didn't order. The heroes bat them away with their own power too. That's not the power move of someone in control, especially when he previously brought them all within an inch of their life, paralyzed them, and came close to dropping a Meteor on their heads. This of course was after he lobbed several high-tier spells at them, and Shadow Flare to boot. He went from calm, poised, calculating and exhibiting high end abilities, to now just throwing globs of raw power at the heroes in hopes of getting a hit in.
It's only when Cloud decided to charge straight at him that Sephiroth regained his smirk and used the moment to take Cloud to the Edge of Creation and toy with him some more. But clearly he had been pressed before.
Why didn't he use this pin move more than the one time??
Clearly that was Sephiroth's one-hour ability and he hadn't gotten close to enough cooldown time yet
I mean, this is not unheard of for villains. They don't always just go for the simple, lethal skill, otherwise Vader would always open with a force choke on his enemies from a distance and avoid using his lightsaber to spare himself the energy.
Zee
wangxian married
- AKA
- Zee
I was wondering that too cause he says the same thing he did before he died in the OG but if this story is just gonna rez people whenever it feels like I can't trust it. Watch us get an extra cutscene in part 2 where the shadows change their mind and then lift him up to safety on a smokey cloud of bullshit
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
I think those small little moments, like Mako os stating, is what is keeping me from hating the ending (besided the cool meta stuff). Its just so Sephiroth in a way, his growing annoyance with the gang. He has always been arrogant as f*ck, and it shows. The final battle vs Cloud, where its very much the same as the final battle from the OG, except Clous absolutely loses in this one, is such a simple neat touch. I was dreading Cloud actually somehow defeating Seph at this time, but yeah they didnt go that far. He still has a journey yet.
Lex
Administrator
How is this in any way relevant to the end of Final Fantasy VII Remake. Wow, a Zelda book with a timeline in it says a specific timeline of games spawned off Link losing the ocarina. Wow, Yoko Taro games have multiple endings.
Look, I've read the Zelda timeline and I've played the Nier games. This is not that. There is nothing to indicate that getting a game over during the kingdom hearts shoehorn monster creates an alternate timeline and it's a weird thing to suggest. Even if it did - even if, by some miracle, an ultimania pops up saying "if you game over here an alternate timeline is created!", the one I'm going to have to suffer will be the one I didn't get a choice in. If Aerith doesn't get stabbed (and dies) on an altar in the Forgotten Capital I will be fucking raging.
Zee
wangxian married
- AKA
- Zee
That's pretty much how I feel. There's so much that was amazing about this remake, and I didn't even mind the little added and expanded things they added into the story up until the end. It all still felt in line with the feeling of the original while also pandering hard to my nostalgia (I actually made a noise of joy when I found the noodle shop in wall market, even if I couldn't order the special this time around). I think it just makes it more mind boggling that they were so good about everything and then just...all That happened.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I'm kinda hoping, with the whispers seemingly dying at the end of this game, the second entry will carry on mostly without comment on all that. That plot seemed very centered on this installment, to give it its own stand alone story (kind of.) Maybe things will go back to "normal" after this. With Biggs 100% alive and the other two in a state of "maybe, maybe not" its clear some things will be drastically different though.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
I'm sorry my tone wasn't conveyed properly, my reply was meant to be a joke/facetious comment.
Also my original statement about the significance of getting a game over wasn't even about alternate timelines, it was about evidence that Sephiroth wasn't getting everything to go his way (since losing would be him getting his way) and had some mild annoyance going on during the ending.
Also, as I have repeatedly stated before in various threads, I am in the camp of being confident Aerith is still going to die by impalement in the Forgotten Capital and that Meteor is still going to be summoned, etc.
If the Whispers do pop up again in future Remake installments, my bet would be that it will occur at the Temple of the Ancients (maybe replacing the Nyum Nyum spirits).
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
I doubt we'll be seeing the whispers anymore. The party defeated them, and Sephiroth fucked up whatever was left.
I personally only think the whispers were added into this part so that Sephiroth would actually have something to do in this section of the story. The fact that they provide a chance for Nomura to get all meta on us is just a bonus for Square.
I personally only think the whispers were added into this part so that Sephiroth would actually have something to do in this section of the story. The fact that they provide a chance for Nomura to get all meta on us is just a bonus for Square.
Lex
Administrator
I sincerely hope this is right. I suppose only time will tell :/
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
I'm guessing they'll probably wait at least a couple week before doing interviews with post-ending questions/content, if they even do them at all. Also expect Covid-19 to slow everything up in general for a bit. FFXIV's next MSQ patch is already getting delayed at least month because of it.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
And yet he doesn't just drop it immediately. =P
Mako said:
So he traded one menacing stance for another while standing over an opponent we know he isn't finished emotionally and psychologically torturing yet?
In the versions where Barret shows up, by the way, he never even does that:
Mako said:
I'll agree that they managed to actually hurt him and piss him off after he dicked around too long, sure. That's his stock in trade.
He didn't suddenly became desperate, as you put it, though, when he doesn't even make an attempt to defend himself afterwards; and instead just smiles and lets Cloud get a free lick in.
We've seen what Sephiroth's face looks like when facing an unexpected defeat (see: Cloud picking him up in the Nibel reactor in CC, the ending of the original game or Advent Children). This isn't it.
Mako said:Clearly that was Sephiroth's one-hour ability and he hadn't gotten close to enough cooldown time yet
I think we're done here. Lol
Zee
wangxian married
- AKA
- Zee
Oh by the way semi related I guess. But before I beat the game today I had a dream that for no reason Tidus and Rikku from FFX showed up in the final boss battle. Lemme ask how many of you would have been on board with that vs what happened cause I feel like if we are gonna go off the rails we should have gone all the way.
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
I actually dont want to see the Whispers being forgotten. I mean, you made all that fuss, all the risk you took making this ending, to just drop it?! Werent you confident in your own story? God, I would be pissed. Like, yeah just sweep it under the rug, that will make things better for sure
