SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think it’s useless to discuss the ending in such a deep way, although there is merit to it, because you get a slightly different ending depending on who is on your team. As I have noted before, players are going to seamlessly feel that everyone has the same ending while it’s not true, it all depends on who you favour (or not) in your romance setup lol!

So we have to rely on the skeleton of the fight, the things that always happen no matter who’s on your party to be 100% sure of the canon.
 

SpacemanZero

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I wrote an ending theory elsewhere and would love to hear what you think about it.

I think a lot of people have misunderstood some things about the ending. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and now when doing a second playthrough it's starting to make much more sense. I really don't think it'll end up being "some convoluted Kingdom Hearts bs level of mindfuckery" as some people fear. I tried to keep this as simple I could, but it's still a bit long, so bear with me.

For starters: there's only two timelines, this game is not a sequel and we’ll likely never “physically” set our foot in the other timeline and yes, Aerith has to die, again. Our heroes are still in the good old "what happened, happened" timeline. The plate still fell, Avalanche buddies still died and Zack is most definitively dead. And I really don't think there's going to be any physical travelling between the timelines.
They clearly tell you this with visual clues during the ending scenes.
  • In the Zack scene the camera slows down to show us that Stamp the dog is a completely different dog breed than in the real timeline. That’s why they make you look at Stamp the dog multiple times during the game, to make you recognize the picture and the breed of the dog.
  • The scenes where the timeline has been altered all have this golden dust rain on them which starts when the Harbinger, Whispers and “Sephiroth” are defeated and the singularity closes. The scenes where Zack lives, Biggs lives, Jessie and Wedge is hinted to live and the plate doesn’t get completely wrecked etc. all have this golden dust rain on them.
  • However, there isn’t a single scene that has the golden rain in any of the scenes with our heroes. When they get back to the real world everything seems to be just like it should be. Nothing from the past was undone, and now we'll get to what the future has in store for them.
My theory is that there's actually no time travel at all, at least not in the way that people are interpreting it. Instead I think they're going to greatly expand the lore of the Ancients, Gaia and the Lifestream. The following will contain spoilers from the original game also.

Sephiroth is still dead and is still controlling Jenova from the Northern Crater. However, I think in Remake he can also use the Lifestream to see the past, the present and the future and I think Cetra can do that too now. We'll likely learn about that more later. But he can’t time travel, it’s just his consciousness much like in the original. By using the Lifestream/knowledge of the Ancients he sees his eventual downfall and uses that knowledge to his benefit to try and manipulate Cloud & buddies using Jenova's hallucinations. He doesn't actually physically travel from the future to the past (this ain’t a sequel to Advent Children, that’s nonsense). By manipulating the Lifestream/Whispers Sephiroth shows our heroes glimpses of the future without context: the Meteor falling, Midgar ruins, one of the massive Weapons etc. Without context they look like apocalyptic events. That's why Cloud and the others think that they're going to lose and that they have to avoid that fate.

Now about the Whispers of Fate. Aerith pretty much says it clearly that they're from the Lifestream and they might even be Cetra and that’s why also Aerith is more aware of what’s happening, because she too can talk to the planet, just like in the original. "Voices of the planet… those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain". <- That's Lifestream and Cetra for you.

The Whispers are trying to keep the timeline unchanged so that Sephiroth eventually loses. But Sephiroth's powers combined with Jenova's powers still possess a threat to them. Sephiroth can't directly kill the Harbinger and the Whispers which are some kind of manifestations and guardians from the Lifestream (I know also about the Barret, Cloud & Tifa theory, we’ll see…). He also can’t directly alter the events yet, but what he can do is to try and manipulate our heroes (using Jenova’s hallucinations) to think that they need to destroy the Whispers.

And tricked by Sephiroth our heroes eventually win, which undoes everything the Whispers prevented and that creates another timeline, where now Zack is alive, which would likely set on motion a chain of events where our heroes might not even ever meet or at least Aerith survives. So in this timeline Sephiroth will eventually win. But that's not the timeline we're going to be playing in. Also you can clearly see the Sephiroth we fight at the end is formed from the Whispers so he seems to be again just a hallucination made by Jenova or something like that.

I think where they are going with this is to keep Sephiroth's plan more fresh for everyone while still maintaining most of the original events from here on also.

They will likely sometimes show events from the other timeline to show the players that this is what happens if they don't succeed. A timeline where Zack and Aerith lives is not the happy ending, not even for them. That's the ultimate apocalyptic ending where Sephiroth basically reaches Godhood and eventually destroys everything, because the events to prevent that don't happen.

In the real timeline thanks to Sephiroth's manipulation our heroes now falsely think that they have to prevent the events that ultimately lead them to win. I think during the road ahead they will bit by bit understand what's going on and Aerith clearly plays a big role again. Key moments for the larger plot are likely again in the Cosmo Canyon, Temple and the City of the Ancients etc.

She still has to die so she can use the Lifestream to save the planet, but she might live longer this time, which will keep her fate fresh for everyone while still not changing it too much. Sephiroth’s line “Seven seconds 'till the end. Time enough for you, perhaps. But what will you do with it?” might be related to Aerith’s death and maybe this time Cloud has to choose between saving Aerith and something else. He might actually save Aerith and set Sephiroth’s plan into full motion. That leads to a situation where Aerith’s life needs to be taken in some other way later, so they might actually pull off making it devastating and surprising this time also. I think because at that time Cloud is still not “the real” Cloud they might actually make Cloud completely fall in love with Aerith and thus making the “wrong” choice at first. That’s why there’s a hidden/optional scene in the game where Aerith tells Cloud not to fall in love with her, no matter what.

Look, I know the key people doing the Remake have a thing for stories with multiple timelines and changing fate etc. But they're not stupid either. This Remake clearly shows they still understand what makes FF7 good. But yeah, they’re going to add new things and change some old things. Until proven otherwise in the coming games, I think they found a way to keep things fresh while still not changing it too much. I'm sure they keep most of the original story beats and settings while at the same time expanding on the lore of the planet, Aerith, Ancients, Sephiroth and Jenova to keep the players guessing and not knowing everything that is going to happen.

I know there's holes in this theory, but something like this seems much more likely given the real facts we have at our disposal, rather than some completely off the rails time travelling shit. Yes, I think the last fights were too epic and the Whispers were too meta. They really didn't need to develop an in universe plot that enables them to keep things fresh. They could just have made the changes they want to the story and game design and basically say "deal with it".

They've clearly lost some of the more subtle storytelling beats and replaced it with a pompous character driven drama. But for me at least so far everything I love about FF7 is still presented in a very respectful way and the ending did make me more excited about what’s to come. If they go the route I'm thinking, I don't think they'll lose the theme of life, death, birth and all that, even if they add a touch of fate to it. It's pretty clear this is the only game titled "Remake" because it's an actual plot twist in this game. I'm almost 90 % sure they'll use Final Fantasy 7: Reunion as one of the titles, maybe the last one, but we’ll see.

I’ll gladly admit I was wrong if this train goes totally off the rails in the coming parts, but for now I’ll give them the benefit of doubt.
I think this line from the reveal trailer is now more relevant than ever. "The reunion at hand may bring joy, it may bring fear, but let us embrace whatever it brings."
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
tenor.gif
 

Erotic Materia

[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
I wrote an ending theory elsewhere and would love to hear what you think about it.

I think a lot of people have misunderstood some things about the ending. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and now when doing a second playthrough it's starting to make much more sense. I really don't think it'll end up being "some convoluted Kingdom Hearts bs level of mindfuckery" as some people fear. I tried to keep this as simple I could, but it's still a bit long, so bear with me.

For starters: there's only two timelines, this game is not a sequel and we’ll likely never “physically” set our foot in the other timeline and yes, Aerith has to die, again. Our heroes are still in the good old "what happened, happened" timeline. The plate still fell, Avalanche buddies still died and Zack is most definitively dead. And I really don't think there's going to be any physical travelling between the timelines.
They clearly tell you this with visual clues during the ending scenes.
  • In the Zack scene the camera slows down to show us that Stamp the dog is a completely different dog breed than in the real timeline. That’s why they make you look at Stamp the dog multiple times during the game, to make you recognize the picture and the breed of the dog.
  • The scenes where the timeline has been altered all have this golden dust rain on them which starts when the Harbinger, Whispers and “Sephiroth” are defeated and the singularity closes. The scenes where Zack lives, Biggs lives, Jessie and Wedge is hinted to live and the plate doesn’t get completely wrecked etc. all have this golden dust rain on them.
  • However, there isn’t a single scene that has the golden rain in any of the scenes with our heroes. When they get back to the real world everything seems to be just like it should be. Nothing from the past was undone, and now we'll get to what the future has in store for them.
My theory is that there's actually no time travel at all, at least not in the way that people are interpreting it. Instead I think they're going to greatly expand the lore of the Ancients, Gaia and the Lifestream. The following will contain spoilers from the original game also.

Sephiroth is still dead and is still controlling Jenova from the Northern Crater. However, I think in Remake he can also use the Lifestream to see the past, the present and the future and I think Cetra can do that too now. We'll likely learn about that more later. But he can’t time travel, it’s just his consciousness much like in the original. By using the Lifestream/knowledge of the Ancients he sees his eventual downfall and uses that knowledge to his benefit to try and manipulate Cloud & buddies using Jenova's hallucinations. He doesn't actually physically travel from the future to the past (this ain’t a sequel to Advent Children, that’s nonsense). By manipulating the Lifestream/Whispers Sephiroth shows our heroes glimpses of the future without context: the Meteor falling, Midgar ruins, one of the massive Weapons etc. Without context they look like apocalyptic events. That's why Cloud and the others think that they're going to lose and that they have to avoid that fate.

Now about the Whispers of Fate. Aerith pretty much says it clearly that they're from the Lifestream and they might even be Cetra and that’s why also Aerith is more aware of what’s happening, because she too can talk to the planet, just like in the original. "Voices of the planet… those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain". <- That's Lifestream and Cetra for you.

The Whispers are trying to keep the timeline unchanged so that Sephiroth eventually loses. But Sephiroth's powers combined with Jenova's powers still possess a threat to them. Sephiroth can't directly kill the Harbinger and the Whispers which are some kind of manifestations and guardians from the Lifestream (I know also about the Barret, Cloud & Tifa theory, we’ll see…). He also can’t directly alter the events yet, but what he can do is to try and manipulate our heroes (using Jenova’s hallucinations) to think that they need to destroy the Whispers.

And tricked by Sephiroth our heroes eventually win, which undoes everything the Whispers prevented and that creates another timeline, where now Zack is alive, which would likely set on motion a chain of events where our heroes might not even ever meet or at least Aerith survives. So in this timeline Sephiroth will eventually win. But that's not the timeline we're going to be playing in. Also you can clearly see the Sephiroth we fight at the end is formed from the Whispers so he seems to be again just a hallucination made by Jenova or something like that.

I think where they are going with this is to keep Sephiroth's plan more fresh for everyone while still maintaining most of the original events from here on also.

They will likely sometimes show events from the other timeline to show the players that this is what happens if they don't succeed. A timeline where Zack and Aerith lives is not the happy ending, not even for them. That's the ultimate apocalyptic ending where Sephiroth basically reaches Godhood and eventually destroys everything, because the events to prevent that don't happen.

In the real timeline thanks to Sephiroth's manipulation our heroes now falsely think that they have to prevent the events that ultimately lead them to win. I think during the road ahead they will bit by bit understand what's going on and Aerith clearly plays a big role again. Key moments for the larger plot are likely again in the Cosmo Canyon, Temple and the City of the Ancients etc.

She still has to die so she can use the Lifestream to save the planet, but she might live longer this time, which will keep her fate fresh for everyone while still not changing it too much. Sephiroth’s line “Seven seconds 'till the end. Time enough for you, perhaps. But what will you do with it?” might be related to Aerith’s death and maybe this time Cloud has to choose between saving Aerith and something else. He might actually save Aerith and set Sephiroth’s plan into full motion. That leads to a situation where Aerith’s life needs to be taken in some other way later, so they might actually pull off making it devastating and surprising this time also. I think because at that time Cloud is still not “the real” Cloud they might actually make Cloud completely fall in love with Aerith and thus making the “wrong” choice at first. That’s why there’s a hidden/optional scene in the game where Aerith tells Cloud not to fall in love with her, no matter what.

Look, I know the key people doing the Remake have a thing for stories with multiple timelines and changing fate etc. But they're not stupid either. This Remake clearly shows they still understand what makes FF7 good. But yeah, they’re going to add new things and change some old things. Until proven otherwise in the coming games, I think they found a way to keep things fresh while still not changing it too much. I'm sure they keep most of the original story beats and settings while at the same time expanding on the lore of the planet, Aerith, Ancients, Sephiroth and Jenova to keep the players guessing and not knowing everything that is going to happen.

I know there's holes in this theory, but something like this seems much more likely given the real facts we have at our disposal, rather than some completely off the rails time travelling shit. Yes, I think the last fights were too epic and the Whispers were too meta. They really didn't need to develop an in universe plot that enables them to keep things fresh. They could just have made the changes they want to the story and game design and basically say "deal with it".

They've clearly lost some of the more subtle storytelling beats and replaced it with a pompous character driven drama. But for me at least so far everything I love about FF7 is still presented in a very respectful way and the ending did make me more excited about what’s to come. If they go the route I'm thinking, I don't think they'll lose the theme of life, death, birth and all that, even if they add a touch of fate to it. It's pretty clear this is the only game titled "Remake" because it's an actual plot twist in this game. I'm almost 90 % sure they'll use Final Fantasy 7: Reunion as one of the titles, maybe the last one, but we’ll see.

I’ll gladly admit I was wrong if this train goes totally off the rails in the coming parts, but for now I’ll give them the benefit of doubt.
I think this line from the reveal trailer is now more relevant than ever. "The reunion at hand may bring joy, it may bring fear, but let us embrace whatever it brings."
You know, that actually makes a whole lot of sense now. The Stamp thing is what really sealed it for me. Ok, I'm back on board.

Thank you for taking the time to write out such a well thought-out post.
 

Erotic Materia

[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Yeah but the dog’s not Stamp, he’s Stamp’s champs, as duly noted on the print. Other than that, interesting theory!
Yeah, I think that's just the name of the chips/crisps that were in the baggie. Like "Stamp's chips". Champ is another way of saying "chomp".

Also @SpacemanZero, this video seems to pretty closely mirror your take:

Looking at it now, it seems like a really clever way of explaining any plot differences, past and future. I can dig it.
 

Mister Materia

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
MrM
Think we've got the ending all wrong.

I don't think there are multiple timelines, but a choice of where Cloud's destiny is going to take him.
When Cloud faces Sephiroth which mirrors the very last battle of FF7 when Cloud uses Omnislash on Sephiroth he has an option to Save the Planet Sephiroth's way or Save the Planet Aerith's way.

In true villain style, Sephiroth is kinda saying we can do this the easy way or the hard way. (Take below with a pinch of salt, I'm just spitballing ideas)

Sephiroth's interruption of saving the planet is healing, but not healing it in a conventional way as the same way Aerith wants to heal the planet. Sephiroth is part of the planet, he's in the lifestream, by killing everyone he's giving back to planet ultimately making him the God he always wanted, you could say he become the new Jenova the planet. He can do this in 'person' or by the Meteor.

When Sephiroth wants to take Cloud's hand it could be all ended there and then, no need for Meteor, no need for the group's journey. His clones are clearly not up to the task, who else better to use as a vessel than Cloud (this kind of mirrors the way Jenova use's planet's a vessel to move onto the next planet) who would stand up to him, no one, Game Over Destiny fulfilled.

Aerith's interruption is to also heal it, by curing it, killing Sephiroth like a cancer that he is. Leading them onto the singular path and the original story. Aerith mentioned Shrina are not the enemy there is something greater, Barrett thinks Shrina is killing the planet, to some small part is it, but realistically its Sephiroth.

I'm not sure Aerith, Sephiroth know the future, I may have missed something. I didn't see or hear anything to lead to believe they did. The only one showing the way was Fate, you could probably argue Fate is part of the Lifestream of which both Aerith & Sephiroth are tapping into, being shown what they need to continue on their path. (Probably contradicted myself with that one)

There's a lot to take in and digest

I think its more clear cut, left or right, good and bad, pure and evil, black (Meteor) and white (Holy). 2 paths to take 1 goal at the end to heal the planet. We're still on the same path as the original, but in hindsight, it could have gone the other way.

I know we saw Zack, still think he's going to die there's more there think we'll need to wait until Nibelheim to find that out.

The above could be all wrong and Wedge saves the day.

I do think there's something more hidden within the game, I'm interested to find out the following to see if it yields anything.
  • 100% completing (platinum and 100% on all logs)
  • Beating Sephiroth 7 times
  • Using only the Buster Sword for the entire playthrough
  • Any secrets in Chapter 7
  • Is there more in the Library
  • Dialogue choices more true to the original
Why give an option of a chapter select if they don't want us to go snooping (I know it probably more for gameplay experience)
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah, I think that's just the name of the chips/crisps that were in the baggie. Like "Stamp's chips". Champ is another way of saying "chomp".

Also @SpacemanZero, this video seems to pretty closely mirror your take:

Looking at it now, it seems like a really clever way of explaining any plot differences, past and future. I can dig it.

Ohhh, that could be for the crisps' package.

Man, that would mean that they are going to kill every hope of Zack/Aerith being alive, or try to resurrect them, as in "look, if they were alive, this is what would happen, do you still want it now?"
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
...I just thought of something.

When Cloud tries to land the finishing blow on Sephiroth, he instead gets sucked up and surrounded by a swarm of Arbiters of Fate.

What then proceeds is a very clear homage to FFVII's ending when Cloud's spirit dove back into the planet's core to have one last spiritual duel against Sephiroth where he emerged victorious.

However, Cloud wasn't a fully himself this time around. In fact, when he emerged to face Sephiroth his head started pounding and was having a fit. Sephiroth however calms him down and says calmly, "Careful now. That which lies ahead, does not yet exist."

...Is Sephiroth referring to their final duel? Was Cloud somehow having deja vu for an event that hadn't happened, thereby causing his mind to split due to the conflicting memory?

Furthermore, Sephiroth explains something very interesting, which I think is quite meaningful. He looks up at a bright, nebula in space and says, "Our world will become a part of it... One day. But I, will not end. Nor will I have you end."

Cloud asks, "This is?"

And Sephiroth answers, "The edge of creation."

At first it seemed ambiguous and completely without any context but.... It got me thinking. When people die, their spirit energy leaves their body, and their souls go back to the Lifestream within the planet. When planet's die, their spirit energy leaves their dying physical husk, and travels the sea of stars to be reborn and start anew, via Omega.

So where does that planetary aggregate of life go?

In FFVII, all life inevitably returns to it's source. It's all cyclical. And the life of entire planets, has to return to their source. Which I believe is.... The Edge of Creation. The name certainly sounds indicative of such a source. In fact, the nebula Sephiroth looks up to, looks like more than just an ordinary Nebula. It looks like a cosmic, shining crystalline orb, surround by stars and energy.

...It reminds me of another source of universal creation that all life inevitably returns to upon death. A source that gives birth to worlds and receives the souls of worlds that inevitably perish.

I think Sephiroth has somehow become aware of this planetary fate, and is now wishing to avoid it, and subvert it. Cloud somehow got pulled into the very beginning of Gaia's the Planet's "destiny" where it was born from the Edge of Creation, and met Sephiroth there, who somehow was able to glimpse the source of all life. Something Sephiroth does not wish to be made apart of. Sephiroth has now become the One-Winged Angel of Terra.

I think this will be a very important plot development later on.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
And you're right, I saw on reddit people peddling this conspiracy that all the scenes with the gold rain from the dead whispers were actually an alternate reality because there's no gold rain when we see the party. No, guys, there's no gold rain around the party because they aren't in Midgar. The Whispers were flying around Midgar!
Well, guess we know my opinion on Spaceman's theory. I need to watch the last scene again. I guess I just don't see the point in creating an alternate timeline? What would that accomplish? Would the party go there? I know the logic behind it, but I love how the entire theory hinges on a bag of potato chips, too.

Edit: watching it again, the gold rain actually stops by the time we see Marlene, even though the scene still has that ambient glow. However, its also shown that there's gold rain when we see Zack, who is presumably on the same hill the party is later in the same scene. It was established that there were whispers at his final battle and since this explosion was apparently felt throughout time thanks to the singularity, that could explain it being there in the past but not the present? Ah, I hate alternate reality stuff, its too complicated! I just want my man Biggs to be alive in the same world the party is in, thematic cohesion be damned.
 
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SpacemanZero

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Well, guess we know my opinion on Spaceman's theory. I need to watch the last scene again. I guess I just don't see the point in creating an alternate timeline? What would that accomplish? Would the party go there? I know the logic behind it, but I love how the entire theory hinges on a bag of potato chips, too.

Edit: watching it again, the gold rain actually stops by the time we see Marlene, even though the scene still has that ambient glow. However, watching it again, its also shown that there's gold rain when we see Zack, who is presumably on the same hill the party is later in the same scene. It was established that there were whispers at his final battle, too. and since this explosion was apparently felt throughout time thanks to the singularity, that could explain it being there in the past but not the present? Ah, I hate alternate reality stuff, its too complicated! I just want my man Biggs to be alive in the same world the party is in, thematic cohesion be damned.

The another timeline can also just be just a big fat red herring and not ever mentioned again. If it would be just the scenes about Zack I would believe that, but I guess they'll explore the other timeline in some way, because of all the scenes from Midgar too. I still think that they'll use it to show the Zack lives=Sephiroth wins scenario in some ways, but I don't expect much gameplay if at all in the other timeline. Maybe Aerith finds a way to explore the "what if" scenarios through lifestream and finds a way to defeat Sephiroth once and for all through that. Maybe this was their way to foreshadow the revival of the original FF7 concepts, where there was more player choice and alternate paths and endings available.

But honestly no matter where they go with this, this is exactly what they wanted. They wanted everyone to be speculating about the ending, creating crazy theories and keeping the discussion going. They wanted to add some level of uncertainty and uncomfort about the next game and where that takes us. I don't see this discussion going down for a long, long time. People keep finishing the game and coming back to here, to Reddit etc. going "I just finished the game, what the fuck was that ending!?". And just when you think that all that could be said and thought about the ending was done, Square-Enix throws in the teaser trailer for part 2 (or whatever it's called) and oh boy, there we go again.

They might lose some fans between now and the next game, but ultimately I think this will just get more people interested about it and keep the discussion hype up.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
The another timeline can also just be just a big fat red herring and not ever mentioned again. If it would be just the scenes about Zack I would believe that, but I guess they'll explore the other timeline in some way, because of all the scenes from Midgar too. I still think that they'll use it to show the Zack lives=Sephiroth wins scenario in some ways, but I don't expect much gameplay if at all in the other timeline. Maybe Aerith finds a way to explore the "what if" scenarios through lifestream and finds a way to defeat Sephiroth once and for all through that. Maybe this was their way to foreshadow the revival of the original FF7 concepts, where there was more player choice and alternate paths and endings available.

But honestly no matter where they go with this, this is exactly what they wanted. They wanted everyone to be speculating about the ending, creating crazy theories and keeping the discussion going. They wanted to add some level of uncertainty and uncomfort about the next game and where that takes us. I don't see this discussion going down for a long, long time. People keep finishing the game and coming back to here, to Reddit etc. going "I just finished the game, what the fuck was that ending!?". And just when you think that all that could be said and thought about the ending was done, Square-Enix throws in the teaser trailer for part 2 (or whatever it's called) and oh boy, there we go again.

They might lose some fans between now and the next game, but ultimately I think this will just get more people interested about it and keep the discussion hype up.
Oh yeah, this is definitely out of their Kingdom Hearts secret ending playbook of "let's confuse the fuck out of our audience to keep them wondering until next time." Just think of how many questions we have right now.

Did we create an alternate reality?
Do Sephiroth and Aerith know the future?
Why was the stamp on the chip bag different?
Is Zack still alive now?
Biggs is definitely alive now, but what about the others?
Is the story going to drastically change going forward?
Why wasn't there any gold rain when we see the party?
etc.

This was a pretty brilliant move on their part to keep discussion around FF7 Remake relevant for the years until the next game.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Mako, I brought that up in a reply to you from over a week ago. You even thanked the post. =P

Oh I remember that, but back then I was thinking of it in reference to how he would've perhaps acquired knowledge of the future.

However, today I just came to the realization that the Edge of Creation itself, might literally be the equivalent to FFIX's Crystal World.

So yeah, I didn't put those two things together a week ago :monster:
 

SpacemanZero

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Oh yeah, this is definitely out of their Kingdom Hearts secret ending playbook of "let's confuse the fuck out of our audience to keep them wondering until next time." Just think of how many questions we have right now.

Did we create an alternate reality?
Do Sephiroth and Aerith know the future?
Why was the stamp on the chip bag different?
Is Zack still alive now?
Biggs is definitely alive now, but what about the others?
Is the story going to drastically change going forward?
Why wasn't there any gold rain when we see the party?
etc.

This was a pretty brilliant move on their part to keep discussion around FF7 Remake relevant for the years until the next game.

Yeah they basically put the newcomers and OG veterans on the same level. They knew that many of the newcomers would also play the original game or at least read about it after finishing Remake part one just to see the rest of the story, especially when they realize they have years to wait before the conclusion. But now it's more like nobody knows what's going to happen, even though I think majority will come to the conclusion and expectation that most of the story beats and settings will stay the same even after this.

And I get that. I would have been fine with just a modern retelling of FF7 with the main story intact and I know many still want that. But at the same time I did notice that while playing the remake I was always looking ahead and knowing what's coming next and thinking "I wonder how they're going to do that and that". I did kinda miss the feeling of not knowing what's going to happen, although the dementors and other additions did achieve that a little bit. But now I get to go in much more blindly for the first round of the next installments even if most of the things stay the same.

--

I think this interview of Kitase from 2017 is now a very interesting read: https://kotaku.com/is-squall-really-dead-final-fantasy-producer-addresses-1800007113

On the theory that Final Fantasy VII’s Knights of the Round are really the Cetra that defeated Jenova a thousand years before the events of the game:

“Everyone’s thinking too deeply, reading between the lines too much,” laughed Kitase. “That makes it difficult because if you think about it that way, we might have to make it that way. That’s definitely not true.”

Kitase added that artist Tetsuya Nomura, best known as the director of Kingdom Hearts, created all of the summons in Final Fantasy VII. “They don’t have any background story attached to them,” Kitase said.

On the theory that in Final Fantasy VII you’d originally be able to bring Aeris back to life, but that was cut from the game:

“We did hear that there were talks amongst fans that if you use a bug in the game you can revive Aeris and she will be with you until the end of the game,” Kitase said. “It might be good in a fantastical story that you can revive the characters, but with FFVII, we wanted to really take another look at that, look at human life, and [make people] realize they don’t come back.”

When Kitase and his team first started development on Final Fantasy VII, he added, they saw some other company give a survey to little children that asked if they thought people come back to life after they die. “A lot of the kids actually said yes to that question,” Kitase said. “There are all these fantasy stories where, [for example], the princess would come back from death with the kiss of her prince. For children, it was normal for them that people would come back to life. And we wanted to question that idea and thought. So we wanted to depict that there is weight to life, and just put weight on the loss as well to life, and that’s where we all started with Final Fantasy VII. That was our core concept.”


And this is Kitase from a recent Famitsu interview: https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-7-remake-spoilers-kitase-famitsu/

“The fans have been waiting for 23 years for this game, and I’m happy we’ve been finally able to deliver it to them. It’s a full-fledged game that can be enjoyed by itself, but its story is far from over. With this first game, we showed how there is great potential for the future, and we included many hints regarding what’s coming next. I’m looking forward to seeing the fans’ theories on social media regarding what could happen now. We will keep in touch with everyone so we can all make this project grow together.”

--

Well, he certainly got his wish!

But honestly, it puts my mind at ease that Kitase still acknowledges the importance of the core themes of FF7 in that first interview, because that's from a time that they were making the Remake already.
 

Knights of the Round

Pro Adventurer
My emotions have been all over the place with this game.. and it continued with the ending.

Count me as one that went from confused as hell, to frustrated at the deviation of story, to intrigued, to strangely excited to now see what the future holds. FFVII has somehow been made new again.

Many of us wanted to change the course of the original with certain things. I spent hundreds of hours trying to revive Aeris. I'm not saying I want that in the Remake, because it was the most heart-felt and concrete moment in the plot, but just the fact that anything may be up for grabs.. that the fate we've all known could possibly be changed.. has me really interested. This is a slippery slope, though, and it has to be done right. Extreme care needs to be taken whenever considering altering any major plot points, and if they go this route then it'd be nice to give the player a choice of whether he/she wishes to alter the original plot or not. Have my doubts that would happen, though.

Originally, I thought I just wanted a 1:1 remake with the original, but what this now does is take my favorite video game world of all time and bring it to life in new ways, with new possibilities, again. Cloud and the gang no longer feel like they're stuck in the past. As I was playing through it I found myself more excited with, yes, still my favorite characters but with NEW experiences or dialogue they were having that I wasn't familiar with. As long as I could get it to jive with the core story in some way I was fine with it.

The one thing I don't want to happen, however, is for original content to be REMOVED. Cosmo Canyon and Seto, the Forgotten City.. all that stuff still needs to exist. I can handle new plot points and twists as long as they don't remove any critical core content that made the journey so memorable in the first place.

I hated the whispers at first. Now that I know what they truly are and what they're doing they have me intrigued as I think it could be a solid foundation for the story going forward.

This one was always going to divide the fan base. Hell, it's been divided over just how much face time certain characters get without any deviations from the main plot. This one's so special to so many of us that we've spent years building our own existence around the main plot, how we feel it really is or how it should be, and that perspective will differ between many of us and any changes that are made to the main story.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
I haven’t finished reading the more in-depth posts because I just can’t focus enough right now, and I will, but you know what makes me really fucking pissed? That I let my guard down. Like, until the ending there were things I liked more and things I liked less, as it should be expected, but there was so much heart, so much emotion, so much being done right that I even told my sister that I didn’t care what they were planning to do for their dementor ripoffs, because they clearly knew what they were doing and what made FFVII FFVII. Which is something I didn’t think they were capable of after the Compilation, which I mostly HATED and have come to appreciate in bits only over time and tons of rationalizing and good willing on my part.

THIS EXCHANGE HAPPENED LAST NIGHT. Not even 24 hours ago.

Now, sure, there is definitely a more or less convoluted explanation to this mess even if they don’t actually plan to change the core points and themes of the original game. I also have a feeling they more or less wanted to fuck with us, and maybe there’s not much more to read into this mess. But whatever their reason might be, they dropped the ball in the worst possible way and I have a bitter taste in my mouth that I will not forget very soon.

There are a lot of ways to keep older and newer fans intrigued until the next entry. Pissing the older fans off and making it impossible for newer fans to follow what the hell is going on is not a good way.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
The fact that its really only the last hour of my 45 hour playthrough that got stupid, and I really liked the preceding 44 hours for the most part, makes it kinda easy for me to just ignore the dumb whisper and Sephiroth fights and focus on everything else. I feel like too many people are letting the ending ruin the whole thing for them. This thread absolutely dwarfs the others, and I think that's kind of sad.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I
The fact that its really only the last hour of my 45 hour playthrough that got stupid, and I really liked the preceding 44 hours for the most part, makes it kinda easy for me to just ignore the dumb whisper and Sephiroth fights and focus on everything else. I feel like too many people are letting the ending ruin the whole thing for them. This thread absolutely dwarfs the others, and I think that's kind of sad.
Well its the kind of ending that changes the whole perspective and context of the adventure you just had, thats why, for someone that disliked it, it might retroactively ruin a bit of the overall story.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
So to change subject for a second, did anybody actually like the bike mini-game in chapter 4 better than the one in 18? I had a hard time with Motorball because hitting his front wheels was hard. I could't speed up the bike enough to reach them some times. I thought Roche was a much more fun boss fight.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I found Roche much more annoying to dodge. Motorball's attacks were a lot more telegraphed and therefore I felt like I was in an action movie. Slamming on the brakes when he's charging his blast at you, for instance. I didn't really have any difficulty with Motorball. Barely had any health left after Roche.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I haven’t finished reading the more in-depth posts because I just can’t focus enough right now, and I will, but you know what makes me really fucking pissed? That I let my guard down. Like, until the ending there were things I liked more and things I liked less, as it should be expected, but there was so much heart, so much emotion, so much being done right that I even told my sister that I didn’t care what they were planning to do for their dementor ripoffs, because they clearly knew what they were doing and what made FFVII FFVII. Which is something I didn’t think they were capable of after the Compilation, which I mostly HATED and have come to appreciate in bits only over time and tons of rationalizing and good willing on my part.

THIS EXCHANGE HAPPENED LAST NIGHT. Not even 24 hours ago.

Now, sure, there is definitely a more or less convoluted explanation to this mess even if they don’t actually plan to change the core points and themes of the original game. I also have a feeling they more or less wanted to fuck with us, and maybe there’s not much more to read into this mess. But whatever their reason might be, they dropped the ball in the worst possible way and I have a bitter taste in my mouth that I will not forget very soon.

There are a lot of ways to keep older and newer fans intrigued until the next entry. Pissing the older fans off and making it impossible for newer fans to follow what the hell is going on is not a good way.
Wouldnt you still trust them though? I mean, they still delivered a hell of a game overall. That's what is keeping me sane pretty much. They understand things about storytelling, and it would be hypocritical of me to suddenly lose all the earned trust due to an ending that we still dont understand half of it.
 
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