SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
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snatchr
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Snatchr
Wonder if they threw in all the disc 3 imagery to substitute the fact that we wont really be getting FF7 going forward. Straight from Midgar to battling Sephiroth with One Winged Angel, Meteor, the iconic western showdown cutscene etc. With the characters fighting to avert flashes of the game we know and committing to stepping through the veil into an "unknown journey". Thats why this one was simply titled "Remake" rather than "Part 1". We wont get Part 2. The next game may as well be Final Fantasy XVI. 
Or they could have just been blowing their load early to tease people for something they wont be getting for another 5 years or so. Time will tell.
Or they could have just been blowing their load early to tease people for something they wont be getting for another 5 years or so. Time will tell.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Sephiroth having one black wing ala Advent Children isnt the same as fighting him in his Safer form at the core of the Planet. Seemingly doing battle with him in Heaven itself.
I think people underestimate the difference that fight scenario will be with all the characters versus this one. This fight was against Sephiroth, the one-winged SOLDIER. As seen in most depictions.
...The true final battle of FFVII will be against a god.
I think people underestimate the difference that fight scenario will be with all the characters versus this one. This fight was against Sephiroth, the one-winged SOLDIER. As seen in most depictions.
...The true final battle of FFVII will be against a god.
Phantasm
Game Over
Thx bro
WookinPaNub
Lv. 1 Adventurer
- AKA
- K
Most likely this. The major difference between the party standing outside of Midgar in OG and Remake is that in OG they need to stop Sephiroth from reaching the promised land, in Remake they need to stop Sephiroth from destroying the planet. It’s a stronger hook considering there’s now a few years wait for the next game.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I wonder if Cloud and the others know Biggs is alive. They originally thought he was dead back when they returned to Sector 7, but we know they were wrong about that. And if Jessie and Wedge are alive, too, we might meet them sooner than the Midgar raid. The original idea for them when developing the OG, if I remember right, was that they would've survived the plate collapse and left Midgar. You were to meet them again in Cosmo Canyon, I think. Maybe something like that'll happen in Part 2. Like the meetup in Cosmo was a fallback plan if anything were to go wrong in Midgar. Or they could join up with another Avalanche cell somewhere else and we'd find them there. In any case, there are a lot of possibilities.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I must say, it would be lovely if they got to Cosmo Canyon. That was Barret's dream.
I would really love to know more backstory about how these guys connected with Avalanche (which was an evil organisation in Before Crisis) and how they became a rogue cell, not exactly disowned but certainly not in the loop of main Avalanche developments.
I would really love to know more backstory about how these guys connected with Avalanche (which was an evil organisation in Before Crisis) and how they became a rogue cell, not exactly disowned but certainly not in the loop of main Avalanche developments.
WookinPaNub
Lv. 1 Adventurer
- AKA
- K
What are the sources on what their original plans were for the story? I keep hearing a lot about what the original ideas were and some of those seem to get brushed upon or referenced to in this game. Like how Barret was originally supposed to die instead of Aerith and he technically dies in this one. I’ve heard there were ideas they left on the cutting room floor. Wouldn’t be surprised if all of those ideas make their way back into the remakes.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
https://www.gameinformer.com/b/feat...ntasy-vii-remake-interview-game-informer.aspx
really interesting interview from 2016, puts a lot of things into perspective.
really interesting interview from 2016, puts a lot of things into perspective.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Seems like it went Jessie, Biggs and Wedge grew up together > Jessie left Midgar to become an actress > Jessie started studying planetology after her dad suffered Mako Poisoning > Wedge and Biggs live in slums where Tifa moved to as well > Jessie and Barret become part of AVALANCHE > Barret and Jessie come to Midgar to start a new cell (Barret being on outs with the greater organisation, Jessie having some contact with the rest of AVALANCHE still) > Barret and Jessie recruit Jessie's old friends, who know everyone in the slums which led them to Tifa and Seventh Heaven.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
That sequence of events sounds plausible, Roger, but how could Jessie have grown up with Biggs and Wedge since her family lived on the plate and they were in the slums? She probably never took an interest in the slums until after her dad's accident and her involvement with Avalanche. But I don't know for sure.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I dunno about grown up together, but they may have met, clearly people from the plate go to the slums for various reasons.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Another reason I think Jessie's survival is a distinct possibility is her connection to the Gold Saucer and the very play that was part of the date sequence in the OG. Since we'll likely go there at some point, having her there at the place where she once worked and presumably knows people (possibly including Dio and Cait Sith) would lead to some interesting possibilities, especially if she's added as a new option for the date there. With her being an actual actress, doing the play with her would likely be a different experience from doing it with the other girls, who aren't trained in that sort of thing.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Wonder if they threw in all the disc 3 imagery to substitute the fact that we wont really be getting FF7 going forward. Straight from Midgar to battling Sephiroth with One Winged Angel, Meteor, the iconic western showdown cutscene etc. With the characters fighting to avert flashes of the game we know and committing to stepping through the veil into an "unknown journey". Thats why this one was simply titled "Remake" rather than "Part 1". We wont get Part 2. The next game may as well be Final Fantasy XVI.
Or they could have just been blowing their load early to tease people for something they wont be getting for another 5 years or so. Time will tell.
I think they did blow their load early, if I'm being honest. At least with explaining what the Whispers are and establishing the "Unknown Journey" premise.
They should have taken the "Star Wars" sequel trilogy approach (only up to a point; hear me out ...) to this: i.e. make sure the first part feels familiar while seeding new things so as to instill confidence that they know what is important to the returning fans, then use the second installment for really breaking new grounds. It's not like returning players were going to be turned off by getting more or less the same game, and for newcomers, it wouldn't make a difference either way.
Going this route, they could even still have their obligatory final battle with Seph at the end of the highway -- just with everything from the cloud of destiny ghosts onwards subtracted from the equation. Then end on basically the same note. Could even still work that final Zack vision in the rain into this. It still works with this just fine.
You could excise that entire fake, empty Midgar in the destiny ghost-verse sequence ... keep the Sephiroth fight ... skip the "edge of creation" scene ... go ahead and end on the scene of the characters outside the city -- and you wouldn't change anything for the worse. They could even use literally the same ending footage!
Nor would they have been unable to double down on what they came up with for the Whispers in the next game. They could still do all that, just with a ton of good will from established fans rather than this ton of unnecessary animosity.
Hell, they could have even included that line about how "The unknown journey continues" as a clue/hook!
It's like no one was there to give them advice to "pull back" when they got overly self-indulgent with their own cleverness. And I know from experience that you need someone to do that for you.
I take offense to this. My translations are always gross misrepresentations or deliberate distortions, not "questionable."
It was presented that way in the original too, though. Cloud said "This is the real crisis for the planet," and told Barret as they were leaving Midgar that stopping Sephiroth would save the planet.
It's more that Barret's death was considered during early development of the original because they knew someone needed to die. They deliberately avoided that, though, because it seemed like too obvious a direction to go with the three characters they had created at that point (Cloud, Aerith, and Barret). They even considered Cloud, but chose not to go with him since he's the main character.
Ironic that even a month ago I would thought this a distinct unlikelihood, yet now think it not only possible, but likely. Even that it makes more sense than not.
Dark and Divine
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- D&D
If anything, I think that we got this Sephiroth battle at the end to serve as a nod to older fans while also misdirecting newer fans until the moment they eventually find out that the Sephiroth they fought was not the real one. 
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Ah, off course, my apologies. I seem to recall that kotaku guy offering to help TLS with translating remake stuff at the end of his video series, maybe the ultimania would be a good time to cash in on that (not the whole book obviously.)
I know I'm just a desperate hopeful here, but the more I look at chapter 4 and how much effort was expended in characterizing Jessie and fleshing out her back story (look at all those photos in her dad's room!) only to drop her out of the game until her death eight chapters later, the more I can't help but see that as build-up to some future part. There's just too much there for them to not do something with her later. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy.
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
I think the worst part is that, Chapter 18 was clearly supposed to be the more impactful one, but also was probably the least polished one. So you already would have something that its controversial, but now its controversial and badly structured. That would leave a sour taste in almost anyone's mouth.
Guess those CC2 claims were true after all
Guess those CC2 claims were true after all
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
What claims are those oty?
youffie
Pro Adventurer
We were… so close…
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Another clue about Jessie's possible survival is that in Chapter 13, Cloud goes back to Sector 7 with Barret and Tifa to look for her, Biggs, and Wedge. Even after seeing what happened to her in the pillar, Cloud and Tifa still thought there was a chance she could be alive and be saved. Eventually they assumed she and Biggs were dead, but we know for sure they were wrong about Biggs. So it's possible they were wrong about Jessie as well. Bringing her and the rest of the trio back for Part 2 also gives SE an opportunity to redesign them visually and give them a fresh look. Since Jessie's glove and headband are on the dresser, that may be a hint that when and if we do see her again, she might not look the same as she did in Part 1. Same for the others - we only saw Biggs from the neck up when he was lying in bed. So all three of them might get a new look, and I'm interested to see what SE comes up with.
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
After the release of the game I saw a surprisingly insurgence (or rather, ressurgence) of those CC2 claims that Square had to make serious efforts of repurposing what CC2 did after they brought FFVIIR to inside the house. I assumed they were fake, but considering what I went through with the ending, I think they hold a partial truth tbh. They probably were enogh of a hindrance that made the ending segments of the game less polished. Or atleast, I'm being led to believe
Lex
Administrator
@The Twilight Mexican will be translating every single word in that ultimania. He doesn't know it yet but if I have to get him fired and also quarantined from his family that's what will be happening. In this scenario I am Kathy Bates in Misery (but far nicer - I won't physically harm you tres <3).
The chat about not being happy/ repurposing had nothing to do with story elements, I guarantee it. CC2 would never have had creative control over anything story related. Any discussion at the time about Nomura not being happy or whatever was related to visuals only.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I fully endorse the ending, provided the Whispers were defeated and we don't see them ever again in subsequent games. Given the context of the final battle, their ultimate evaporation, and the symbolic/meta interpretation conveyed by their destruction, I really don't see them playing a role in subsequent story chapters.
Having them pop up again after the Harbinger was so summarily defeated, absorbed into Sephiroth, and then subsequently exploded out of him, it would make little sense to recycle their presence, at least in the "plot-guardrails" sorta way. They made for a unique enemy and "first season" antagonistic force, but I'd like it if they stayed away now.
The prelude to the final duel Cloud and Sephiroth had at the Edge of Creation was very interesting. I personally enjoyed the conversation they had and Cloud briefly feeling drawn to accepting Sephiroth's invitation. The fight was incredible but it's also strange. If this Sephiroth somehow has prior knowledge of their future duel in the Lifestream where he loses, if it happens again.... How the hell will Cloud get the jump on him again?
Their antagonistic relationship has taken a slightly new direction in the Remake that I find fascinating. Sephiroth's white hot hatred of Cloud always skirted the edge of obsession, however now it seems almost to completely give into that. Why does Sephiroth want Cloud to be stronger? What could he possibly need or want of Cloud's strength? There's obviously something that risks consuming the planet and leading to its end, which Sephiroth has no desire to see happen. I wonder what that could be.
Having them pop up again after the Harbinger was so summarily defeated, absorbed into Sephiroth, and then subsequently exploded out of him, it would make little sense to recycle their presence, at least in the "plot-guardrails" sorta way. They made for a unique enemy and "first season" antagonistic force, but I'd like it if they stayed away now.
The prelude to the final duel Cloud and Sephiroth had at the Edge of Creation was very interesting. I personally enjoyed the conversation they had and Cloud briefly feeling drawn to accepting Sephiroth's invitation. The fight was incredible but it's also strange. If this Sephiroth somehow has prior knowledge of their future duel in the Lifestream where he loses, if it happens again.... How the hell will Cloud get the jump on him again?
Their antagonistic relationship has taken a slightly new direction in the Remake that I find fascinating. Sephiroth's white hot hatred of Cloud always skirted the edge of obsession, however now it seems almost to completely give into that. Why does Sephiroth want Cloud to be stronger? What could he possibly need or want of Cloud's strength? There's obviously something that risks consuming the planet and leading to its end, which Sephiroth has no desire to see happen. I wonder what that could be.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
I assume it's that Sephiroth doesn't want Shinra to drain/burn through the Lifestream, as if there is no lifestream, Sephiroth can't absorb it to become a God.