SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Oh yeah I think it was horribly implemented. To me that was always the big question mark on my brain. Throughout the entire game you had great dialogue that felt very human and somewhat realistic, and the last couple of hours that all goes to hell? And honestly, if anyone hasnt checked...
please check X-SOLDIER's recent post explaining the technical side of the Remake. Before any theory is formed, we have to take into consideration the circunstances at which the Remake came to be. After all, it is still a game in the end. And games go through multiple processes that shape it.
 
Hello? Hello? Is that Shinra's Public Safety Maintenance department? Oh, thank god - swallowed sobs - I've been trying to get through for hours. It's about my son, Desmond. Desmond Parr. Can you tell me where he is? He's a heligunner with the Sector 7 third division and I'm so afraid - I'm so worried he got caught up in the terrorist attack on the support pillar. He's usually so good about calling me. Please, can you tell me - is he alive?
 
Sorry for the double post, but I realised I have a question. WTF was President Shinra doing outside hanging from a broken catwalk by one hand? Did I miss something? Am I meant to assume that Sephiroth put him there? As what - bait? Or maybe the Whispers put him there?

Every time SE have changed a canonical scene they have completely undermined the impact of it. Trail of blood replaced with trail of ectoplasmic goo? It just doesn't pack the same punch. Coming across President Shinra already dead in his seat of power perfectly conveyed Sepiroth's supernatural ability to strike down anyone, anywhere. Now, though, what we see is Sephiroth skewering a loser and a weakling.

Sephiroth was terrifying because he was so supernatural. Now, he's just one more supernatural thing in a world composed of nothing but.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I disagree. It is normal for a completely new story to introduce elements of "seeing the future". Sure to old players it looks like the OG... to the new players, it is as Red says, a vision of the future if they fail.

The Cait Sith appearance, altho I also thought it was such a "wtf" placement to new players, it can also be preparation for the reveal that he was Reeve's puppet. It will connect to future storylines, does not have to be the "OG storyline". And Sephiroth has been shown in the OG too before knowing much about him...

The reason I say all these things is because I discussed it with my brother who is 14 years younger than me and has not touched FF7 anything. He only played this game. I was also the same mindset as you before...

Amusingly, I read yesterday a review by a completely normal player (he's a journalist for a random French newspaper, nothing involved with tech), and globally, he absolutely loved it (a quasi total win to him). He said that he wanted more by the end of the game, and that he loved it more than what he expected to, that it's a story for everyone, not only for fans.

And I think that's something old fans often forget, that this game is also one for new players, that the way they look at things are indeed different from what we look at them. I was definitely reminded of your comment when I read that review - new players are going to take the game completely differently than we do.

Edit: lol this interview, with Kitase and Nojima wanting to kill everyone off haha! But yeah, I always knew that killing Aerith was very important to them because it's an important lesson and message, that's why I can't see them going "oh no lol she won't die this time around!" it's all lies.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
... I mean, timey-wimey mind screw stories are indeed extremely popular. That's why they happen so much. :monster:

Their indecipherablity, ways of challenging established understanding and time travel are part of the charm. This is sorta their era of resurgence.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Sorry for the double post, but I realised I have a question. WTF was President Shinra doing outside hanging from a broken catwalk by one hand? Did I miss something? Am I meant to assume that Sephiroth put him there? As what - bait? Or maybe the Whispers put him there?

Every time SE have changed a canonical scene they have completely undermined the impact of it. Trail of blood replaced with trail of ectoplasmic goo? It just doesn't pack the same punch. Coming across President Shinra already dead in his seat of power perfectly conveyed Sepiroth's supernatural ability to strike down anyone, anywhere. Now, though, what we see is Sephiroth skewering a loser and a weakling.

Sephiroth was terrifying because he was so supernatural. Now, he's just one more supernatural thing in a world composed of nothing but.
To be fair, Trails of Blood scene was always a tricky thing to do due to the ratings issue. I reckon it just as much as Wall Market as something they had to take double (in Wall Market I imagine triple) care in doing it.
 

SpacemanZero

Lv. 25 Adventurer
This is also an interview from just two weeks before launch: https://square-enix-games.com/en_GB/news/final-fantasy-vii-remake-interview

Hamaguchi-san: When we started this project, I had to think very, very hard about what form we wanted any new experiences in this remake to take.

From the start, I felt that FINAL FANTASY VII’s characters, world and story are so beloved that we couldn’t start playing with those or changing them in a reckless manner. But the style and presentation - the way they’re shown - that we can work with.


--

I'm starting to get on board the "there's no alternative timeline, Zack is dead, Biggs is alive" -train and think of that ending just as a big fat red herring to mess with OG fans. Wedge made it to Shinra HQ. Who knows what he managed to do before the plate fell and after that. Or someone else.

Maybe it's just Biggs who has Jessie's gloves as a memento. Maybe they're all alive and they're setting up the Avalanche trio for the eventual Midgar raid. This time they're inside players creating a diversion to make a way for Tifa to kick Hojo's skinny ass? And then they'll die, still giving their lives in a meaningful way and this time for good. I can totally see the crew passing through Sector 7 again when going after Hojo. There's so much potential there to set up a "look how far we have come" scene. there They see the 7th Heaven rebuild. "Who did that?" *Tifa opens the door*. Biggs: "It's about time you showed up!"

Yeah, I'm down. Let's do this shit.

--

In before I change my mind 30 times between now and part two releasing, but this is still nothing compared to watching Twin Peaks: The Return unfold.
 
AKA
Alex
I'm afraid this ending is going to overshadow everything the remake did right for a lot of people. In so many ways this game blew my expectations out of the water. Nomura just had to go and be Nomura in the last 2 hours.

This has been a "Nomura doing Nomura things" game from Day 1, even before he was brought onboard the project. The original teaser trailer outright said that, "It may bring joy... it may bring fear... but let us embrace whatever it brings."

The whole game is a meta-commentary on the FF7 OG fandom. The Arbiters of Fate are the fanbase, who are trying to keep the plot in line with the way it was in 1997, 1:1. It takes a version of Sephiroth (probably from the future/alternate timeline, post-Advent Children) to start derailing things beginning in Chapter 2, and what follows are a series of escalating moments as the Arbiters try harder and harder to prevent major story beats from happening differently. It's clear by the time Chapter 16 rolls around (when Red gives his lecture on the meaning of the Whispers) that "this ain't gon' be your daddy's FF7."

Hell, beating the Hard Mode bonus boss in the VR simulator reveals that
Chadley is a fully-functional cyborg built by Hojo to analyze combat data for SHINRA.

I'm starting to get on board the "there's no alternative timeline, Zack is dead, Biggs is alive" -train and think of that ending just as a big fat red herring to mess with OG fans. .

That's what I'm thinking, too. Zack's death in the OG game was a huge moment to me. Not only an optional/secret scene, but was completely shocking with its brutality -- a SHINRA grunt walks up and unloads half a clip into Zack at point-blank range. Even for 1997, that was shocking.

I can't see the devs wanting to avoid showing such a moment, especially when the ending cuts off just as Zack and Cloud are nearing the cliff. Zack being alive throws way too many continuity problems into the existing plot of the remake -- if he was alive, wouldn't visiting Aerith be the first thing he did? Why does Cloud have his sword, then? Why is Cloud still getting the glitches/memory problems with his memories of Zack if he never experienced the traumatic event of the latter's death? It's such a critical character moment for both of them that I'm absolutely convinced that the whole ending is a red herring and people are taking it at face value.
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Sorry for the double post, but I realised I have a question. WTF was President Shinra doing outside hanging from a broken catwalk by one hand? Did I miss something? Am I meant to assume that Sephiroth put him there? As what - bait? Or maybe the Whispers put him there?
It’s implied from the broken glass hole in the President’s office that Sephiroth (either through the #49 or #2 copy), threw President Shinra through the glass wall/window and nearly off the edge.
 
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youffie

Pro Adventurer
I just thought of something that I enjoyed about this last chapter!!!

Which is that I ended up summoning Chocobo & Moogle in the final battle against Sephiroth and so I had all these very dramatic KWEEEs going on and then I was treated with the beautiful image of an army of chocobos just charging into Sephiroth which. Wow. Talk about things you never knew you needed. Finally, I proceeded to dolphin blow him to death, which was also excellent.

I felt slightly bad for disrespecting Sephiroth like that but you know what, he totally deserved it for dragging us into that hot mess of an ending, if I ever replay that segment I'm going to squash him with Fat Chocobo
 
OK, having read through Mako's excellent post reflecting on the ending, here's what I think about the Whispers.

Presumably they're called Whispers because they represent faint voices of warning or guidance. They're manifestations of the planet's will - I'm imagining the planet/lifestream murmuring "yes", "no", "don't", "this way", "stop" etc.... I don't know if they are meant to represent the voices Aerith heard in the OG, or something different. The planet has a plan for its own future and wants all its lifeforms to conform. As long as their actions don't mess with the planet's plan, they are free to do as they like, but if they screw with the main program, the planet will nudge them back into line.

But this begs the question: unless the planet actively wanted to get cancer, why did it allow Shinra to rise to power, process mako, and create Sephiroth? Why didn't it get one of the Whispers to smother President Shinra when he was still a baby in his cradle?

Maybe because the Whispers weren't active then? Maybe they are like the Weapons, dormant 99% of the time, but activitating if a major threat presents itself. Maybe, like the Weapons, they were created by the planet specifically to tackle the mortal danger posed by Jenova - and so, when Sephiroth's will starts manifesting itself through the Jenova cells in the clones, the Whispers spring to life like so many white blood cells alerted to the presence of a pathogen.

Jenova and the planet are alike in that both are semi-sentient, multi-cellular organisms. For the planet, human beings and all other lifefoms are just like our hair, skin, eyes, and all out other different types of hair are to us: manifestations of its essence. Ultimately, all lifeforms are reunited with the planet in the lifestream. The difference between the planet and Jenova is that the planet is self-sustaining when it comes to life, whereas Jenova is a predator that needs to consume others to live.

Since Shinra is "not the real threat to the planet", that would explain why the Whispers didn't put an end to President Shinra before he could do any harm.

Here's the thing about fate, though. If it can be altered, it's not your fate. if your actions can't alter your fate, then you are not in control. It's a paradox. In Greek tragedy, knowing your fate is itself the curse, because everything you do to try to avoid it only brings it closer, and in the end, you by your freely chosen actions bring your own fate down on your head. I’d like to think that’s what is going to happen with this story. But I doubt it. The point is, knowing what your fate is doesn’t mean you’re in control of it.

Mako said that
I think it's clear from Aerith's own words and the groups agreement that they all went into the Singularity with the intention of defeating Sephiroth. That's what Aerith clearly states, however, they all unwittingly cross swords with the Whispers of the Planet. They intended to protect the planet and the Whispers but because of their opposition, they fought them seriously and defeated them. In doing so, the Planet became vulnerable. And Sephiroth literally absorbs the Whispers into him and creates the future. The new destiny for the planet. A giant meteor slamming into Midgar.

So maybe that was Sephiroth’s intention all along, since the Whispers were impeding his will. Get the good guys to eliminate them.

From the way the fight went, Whisper Harbinger holds the planet's "future/fate" (or glimpses thereof) within itself, but with it's defeat Sephiroth eats it and... We see Meteor and end of the world. From this point, Sephiroth controls fate, because he absorbed the entirety of the Whispers, just like at the end of OF FFVII when he absorbed the Lifestream.

So if Sephiroth controls fate, Cloud & Co need to wrest that control back from him.

Why, exactly, do we see Meteor? What mechanism is functioning here? Are we meant to suppose that the planet/whispers are privy to the hopes and dreams inside Sephiroth’s mind? Or does Sephiroth allow us to see it because he wants us to follow him and try to stop him? The Planet tried and failed to stop him; now it’s down to our plucky band of rag-tag misfits?

*I do also think that this ending has set SE up nicely for creating and selling an endless stream of DLC alternative timelines in infinite variations: Zack lives; Zack dies; Aerith lives; Aerith dies; Rufus lives; Rufus dies....
 
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