SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Roger]

It's more that Barret's death was considered during early development of the original because they knew someone needed to die. They deliberately avoided that, though, because it seemed like too obvious a direction to go with the three characters they had created at that point (Cloud, Aerith, and Barret). They even considered Cloud, but chose not to go with him since he's the main character.

Crono took that bullet for Cloud, thankfully.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I fully endorse the ending, provided the Whispers were defeated and we don't see them ever again in subsequent games.

I'll just be waiting here with my popcorn then. XD

 

[Tetsujin]

I'd prefer if they return so they can keep everything on track like they're supposed to and I get the Remake I was promised

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd prefer if they return so they can keep everything on track like they're supposed to and I get the Remake I was promised

Oh, you.

 

[Castiel Strife]

I wonder if Cloud and the others know Biggs is alive. They originally thought he was dead back when they returned to Sector 7, but we know they were wrong about that. And if Jessie and Wedge are alive, too, we might meet them sooner than the Midgar raid. The original idea for them when developing the OG, if I remember right, was that they would've survived the plate collapse and left Midgar. You were to meet them again in Cosmo Canyon, I think. Maybe something like that'll happen in Part 2. Like the meetup in Cosmo was a fallback plan if anything were to go wrong in Midgar. Or they could join up with another Avalanche cell somewhere else and we'd find them there. In any case, there are a lot of possibilities.

It won’t happen this way, but what would make the most sense to me would be for them to meet up after the events of FF7. After defeating Sephiroth at the crater. The original game never proved to us that they were dead, it was only implied and Cloud and gang assumed they were dead but had no real proof. That being said, they already ruined it by having Wedge show up so they can’t go that route. I think you could have easily kept all three alive without actually changing the story at all. You could have still showed them alive to the fans but not have the cast know. Seeing Biggs alive would have been more impactful in my opinion if you didn’t show Wedge.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd prefer if they return so they can keep everything on track like they're supposed to and I get the Remake I was promised

I mean, I'd rather it organically happen instead of Whispers swooping in and pushing people so hard they have no choice but to do it the other way.

Like, the hilarity of the Ghosts of Canon's Past breaking Jessie's leg to make sure Cloud gets back where he belongs makes me chuckle. They literally swarmed the fuck out of the slums to ensure shit went down right.

I imagine that while things change, they'll be adhering to the DNA of the OG, with new shit sprinkled inbetween. I seriously doubt they're going "masks off" on this entire Remake project.

 

[Dark and Divine]

I'd prefer if they return so they can keep everything on track like they're supposed to and I get the Remake I was promised

Opening scene from Part 2:

Biggs: "Hey, guys, I'm alive!"

*Whisper appears, pulls machine gun from its hood and fills Biggs with bullets*

Biggs while fading into Lifestream sparkles: "Er...never mind..."

 

[ForceStealer]

Howabout the ol' grand piano falling from a highrise onto the sidewalk

 

[Odysseus]

I kinda want to see someone make a parody where the whispers do increasingly nonsensical things to keep the plot on track.

 

[oty]

I doubt though CC2 had even gotten to end game content before SE brought everything in-house though. There being less polish in the later chapters is more likely the result of the Remake/SE needing a definite release in the first third/half of 2020.

@The Twilight Mexican will be translating every single word in that ultimania. He doesn't know it yet but if I have to get him fired and also quarantined from his family that's what will be happening. In this scenario I am Kathy Bates in Misery (but far nicer - I won't physically harm you tres <3).



The chat about not being happy/ repurposing had nothing to do with story elements, I guarantee it. CC2 would never have had creative control over anything story related. Any discussion at the time about Nomura not being happy or whatever was related to visuals only.

It's not about the story, it's the polish of the chapter. Spending resources, specially time, repurposing what CC2 did is what partially consumed time enough that in the end lacked for the ending chapters, considering they had to deliver it in the beggining of 2020 max, for PS5 reasons

 

[ForceStealer]

I kinda want to see someone make a parody where the whispers do increasingly nonsensical things to keep the plot on track.

Now this I am down for.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I imagine that while things change, they'll be adhering to the DNA of the OG, with new shit sprinkled inbetween.

Ah, so the RNA is the loophole here.

 

[Theozilla]

Though according to Dirge of Cerberus, at least either Biggs or Wedge has to remain perma-dead by the end of the Remake, since Vincent meets a WRO agent who is implied to be one of the two's surviving sister, who mentions their death (though admittedly this is with the generous assumption that SE even cares about conforming to such minutiae of details).

I mean, I'd rather it organically happen instead of Whispers swooping in and pushing people so hard they have no choice but to do it the other way.

Like, the hilarity of the Ghosts of Canon's Past breaking Jessie's leg to make sure Cloud gets back where he belongs makes me chuckle. They literally swarmed the fuck out of the slums to ensure shit went down right.

I imagine that while things change, they'll be adhering to the DNA of the OG, with new shit sprinkled inbetween. I seriously doubt they're going "masks off" on this entire Remake project.

I think it's reasonable to expect to maybe see the Whispers pop up again in the Temple of the Ancients. Especially since in the OG that pool of "knowledge" is what allowed the party to see into the past to witness Sephiroth attacking Tseng, which could fit with the Whispers' timey-wimey stuff.

It's not about the story, it's the polish of the chapter. Spending resources, specially time, repurposing what CC2 did is what partially consumed time enough that in the end lacked for the ending chapters, considering they had to deliver it in the beggining of 2020 max, for PS5 reasons

I'm sure the repurposing consumed some amount of work/development time, I just don't know if it's feasible to specifically point out what exactly it affected, as I am sure there was a cascading effect. Similar to how KH3 had two switch from the FFXV engine to the Unreal 4 engine.

 

[Odysseus]

Though according to Dirge of Cerberus, at least either Biggs or Wedge has to remain perma-dead by the end of the Remake, since Vincent meets a WRO agent who is implied to be one of the two's surviving sister, who mentions their death (though admittedly this is with the generous assumption that SE even cares about conforming to such minutiae of details).

I was specifically waiting to see if this sister character was ever referenced in the remake, but we kinda got the opposite. Both Biggs and Wedge say they don't have family at the beggining of chapter 4 (RIP Kwedge) so I think that character is officially not canon. Admittedly square probably forgot she existed.

EDIT: Her brother could have been one of the other dudes that were defending the pillar too, I guess.

 

[Tetsujin]

I imagine that while things change, they'll be adhering to the DNA of the OG, with new shit sprinkled inbetween. I seriously doubt they're going "masks off" on this entire Remake project.

I too, would like to ignore everything the ending hit me over the head with but alas, the messaging is clear

 

[Theozilla]

I was specifically waiting to see if this sister character was ever referenced in the remake, but we kinda got the opposite. Both Biggs and Wedge say they don't have family at the beggining of chapter 4 (RIP Kwedge) so I think that character is officially not canon. Admittedly square probably forgot she existed.

Probably (though maybe Biggs and Wedge's Chapter 4 dialogue were just meant to refer to a lack of surviving parents specifically).

EDIT: Her brother could have been one of the other dudes that were defending the pillar too, I guess.

That is also true.

I too, would like to ignore everything the ending hit me over the head with but alas, the messaging is clear

I would think that the fact this thread is already 45+ pages long would indicate that the messaging is very much not clear though.

 

[Tetsujin]

I would think that the fact this thread is already 45+ pages long would indicate that the messaging is very much not clear though.

I mean it is but y'all are in stage 1 denial and willfully choose to ignore it.

If your takeaway from that ending is that we killed fate itself just so everything stays the same with a few sensible adjustments and additions to the story rather than some major differences and controversial changes then I don't know what to tell ya

 

[Theozilla]

I mean it is but y'all are in stage 1 denial and willfully choose to ignore it.

If your takeaway from that ending is that we killed fate itself just so everything stays the same with a few sensible adjustments and additions to the story rather than some major differences and controversial changes then I don't know what to tell ya

Tetsujin, I think you've gone a little too far/rude in presuming that people (myself included) who are confident that the skeleton of the OG plot will be retained in the Remake are just willfully ignorantly in denial. You may not have intended that way, but I felt very disrespected by that implication.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ah, so the RNA is the loophole here.

And that's the rub, right there.

I expect the OG's plot to exist and be followed, as it did here in the Remake.

However, the writers will express those plot events and scenarios in a myriad of ways. Some of that OG DNA will be decoded and expressed as seen in the original, other events or scenarios may get mutated.

I think it's reasonable to expect to maybe see the Whispers pop up again in the Temple of the Ancients. Especially since in the OG that pool of "knowledge" is what allowed the party to see into the past to witness Sephiroth attacking Tseng, which could fit with the Whispers' timey-wimey stuff.

That'd be fine, I just wouldn't want their role as time-janitors to be repeated.

I mean it is but y'all are in stage 1 denial and willfully choose to ignore it.

If your takeaway from that ending is that we killed fate itself just so everything stays the same with a few sensible adjustments and additions to the story rather than some major differences and controversial changes then I don't know what to tell ya

It's entirely possible that the whole exercise is a means of subverting expectations, only so that when moments that are well known and predictable within the OG arrive, they are able to inflict maximum impact on the audience by adhering to them.

Nomura can be very crafty and is a master at purposeful misdirection. Kingdom Hearts thrives off that shit. The secret ending "Birth By Sleep" spawned a year of people theorizing Roxas was never a nobody, or he would somehow escape Sora's heart and live a life to become a Keyblade Knight, and other ideas because Nomura created a character with the exact same face as another character, in an entirely different game. It was literally the "Zack is alive!!" shit before today. Ventus having Roxas face was a purposeful design decision to throw the audience for a loop, and it ended with the answer being "same face, different boy."

That's absurd yet that happened.

Yeah, there will be changes but I believe that this is a purposeful meta-misdirection meant to make us expect the unexpected, while the expected take us totally by surprise.

 

[Wol]

another reference to the mindfuck at the end lol

 

[ForceStealer]

I saw it for myself and did not understand, but that is pretty funny, admittedly

 

[Theozilla]

another reference to the mindfuck at the end lol

Yeah, I noticed that too. Though I also like to think of it possibly meaning some playwright visited Banora and found a random chair with Genesis’ original newly penned ending to the play too.

 

[snatchr]

I mean it is but y'all are in stage 1 denial and willfully choose to ignore it.

If your takeaway from that ending is that we killed fate itself just so everything stays the same with a few sensible adjustments and additions to the story rather than some major differences and controversial changes then I don't know what to tell ya

For real. The game is already laden with such alterations and adjustments from the original game. None of those needed arbiters of fate being beaten up and eaten to explain. They're obviously going to go in a radically different direction with the barest framework of "gotta stop Sephiroth!" in there from now on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

98% the alterations and adjustments in the Remake have been additive and technological, with the moments from the beginning of the game to the Midgar escape still present and accounted for.

The extensive changes were the additional new plot line which thematically references the fact it is a Remake of the original story. And there's the swapping around of certain plot revelations to better adapt to the multi-game release structure. However, that majority of the game is treading the same road of the OG, in terms of it's narrative. As demonstrated with Part 1, they're able to continue following the overall story of the original game while simultaneously adding new context and story that either expands or creatively teases the expectations of the audience.

I really don't see that changing. The Remake's ending simply makes it explicitly clear that from this point forward, the same framework of Part 1 will continue for the rest of the project.

 

[LNK]

Geez! 46 pages worth!? Haha. I can see why, that ending was crazy! Especially with fighting the whispers. I figured we would though. If people read the tracklist for the OST, it kind of alluded to it. I figured fighting Motorball as an end boss would be anticlimactic, so I welcomed something different. (A little surprised Roche didnt show up during that fight) I would've been fine with fighting Sephiroth, like Vader in Fallen Order. But, fighting Sephiroth with the Whispers was great. I noticed each Whisper resembled Cloud, Barret and Tifa. Maybe not though. Sephiroth showing them visions of future events was a nice touch too. I loved the Edge of Creation scene. It definitely reminded me of the final battle in the OG.

I really liked the visions of Zack and his final moments of Crisis Core. It almost looked as if Aerith finally realized why Cloud reminded her of Zack. Maybe in the intro scene for the next part, it'll be the 3 grunts spraying Zack with bullets, like in Crisis Core. Or gradually building up to that through more flashbacks, making new fans think Zack is a new character and was alive. I have no clue haha.

I can't believe Biggs survived! I thought for sure he was dead. It was a nice touch of having Jessie's glove and headband on the table. I hope she didn't survive as well. Their deaths were a lot more emotional this time around. Maybe the Whispers saved her as well before the plate collapsed. I wonder how it'll be explained, him surviving, in the next game.

I couple people I know said the ending had time travel? I dont know, I didnt see it.

I loved every bit of this game! It was definitely worth the wait. Now hopefully it'll only take a couple years until we get part 2.

Gonna go back and read what everyone else had to say about this chapter. Obviously, there was a lot lol