SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[rkss]

I don't know know about this pink jesus thing but I really do not like a character who tries to be meta and keeps throwing vague, meaningless comments at me in every 5 seconds.

It was the exact reason that I stopped caring about KH. At some point, your enjoyment of the game depends on how much you tolerates the writer.

 

[LostInTheFunhouse]

In the OG, my interpretation of Aerith was as always of a person who had this playful aloofness. It is sort of something that is developed over the course the game, but I always had a sense that she had some clarity on what was going on and what needed to happen. And over time her clarity on events grows until it reaches its apex in the moments leading up to "the" end.

However, I always felt she was coy to a point that bordered on begin deceptive. Not in in a mean spirited way,likely, more in a way that was required to preserve the shock of events for the player... From a western lens, I would say that it is a hallmark of an immature relationship and it has weakened character as I have aged(not in a like a serious way, i mean it is a video game and I love what it is).

With the added fidelity of the remake my take away is not that she has more clarity than in the original, just that it is exposed a bit more both as a result of expanding the story beats and not needing to be a slave to preserving a twist. I think it humanizes her way more in my eyes and I think that it better establishes her as having healthier peer relationships with the party as opposed them being almost unknowingly subservient to her understanding of reality as it will play out.

Hopping of that train, despite any of the unease the ending has caused.. the one space I am unconditionally impressed with(as it relates to story, I think the gameplay is legitimately fantastic) is the expansion and development of all the characters and the nuance they were given in the localized script. I am really in awe in how well it was handled, especially when judged against other JRPGs.. It may be the best i have seen outside of something like Persona, which is different in that it has to embrace its Japaneseness(and is amazing for it) in order to really read right. But in a western context what FF7R has accomplished with character moments is so far beyond what I ever thought was possible. It was awesome.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There do seem to be a lot of mercs in Midgar. It's not that you run into any as far as I can recall, it's just that nobody is remotely surprise that that is what Cloud does for a living.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cloud remembered killing Sephiroth in the OG - in Kalm.

Precisely the opposite:

---
Aeris
What happened to Sephiroth?

Cloud
In terms of skill, I couldn't have killed him.

Tifa
Official records state Sephiroth is dead. I read it in the newspaper.

Aeris
Shinra, Inc. owns the paper, so you can't rely on that information.

Cloud
......I want to know the truth. I want to know what happened then.
I challenged Sephiroth and lived. Why didn't he kill me?
---

The great irony here of course being Cloud did, in fact, kill him.

At no point in the OG did Aerith hint that she was going to her death as a willing sacrifice to save the Planet. I'm well aware that right since the very beginning a section of the fandom has believed she did exactly that - possibly the same section that likes to portray her as a virginal pure pink fairy princess - but the game is pretty lcear that she went off to the Forgotten City fully intending to return and live her life to the full.

I feel so strongly about this that I put it into a fanfic (not the greatest recommendation, I know, but it pretty much sums up how I feel. Tseng and Tifa are having a conversation, post-Meteor:

...

Nice!

Barrett was the original choice for the "shocking character death" in the early scripts of the OG, before Aerith. The scene was an apparent nod to that, best as I can tell.

It doesn't say that anywhere at your link. This is a common misunderstanding (perhaps even fandom fabrication), near as I can tell.

The closest statement to it I know of from any of the developers is this comment from Nomura in a 2005 issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly:

"We knew even in the early concept stage that one character would have to die. But we only had three to choose from. I mean, Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barret... well, that's maybe too obvious. But we had to pick between Aerith and Barret. We debated this for a long time, but in the end decided to sacrifice Aerith... In the previous FF games, it became almost a signature theme for one character to sacrifice him or herself, and often it was a similar character type from game to game, kind of a brave, last-man-standing, Barret-type character. So everyone expected that. And I think that death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic."

 

[LNK]

The thing is, though, I don't really see how adding the Whispers give us the story "in a new way". It's the same story, but now with added meaningless complications.

It seems that in every iteration of FFVII a few things have to happen
1. - a beloved character needs to die
2. - the hero needs to be whisked off temporarily to an alternate dimension
3. - there has to be a Jenova boss fight
4. - there has to be a culminating boss of all bosses fight with Sephiroth

None of the things happened in the Midgar portion of the OG, so they had to figure out a way to introduce them. Obviously they couldn't kill off Aerith (they have to save her for later), so they killed off Barret, but Barret can't die, so they had to bring him back to life. This scene on its own is a travesty of everything the OG was about.

It's a mystery to me why they chose to fulfil element No. 1 by killing Barret, when any one of Jessie, Biggs or Wedge could have served as a the human sacrifice. I suppose it's because their deaths were expected, while Barret's was not.

Anway, my point is, they could have killed Barret, and then let us revive him with a phoenix down. He could have simply been mostly dead instead of all dead.* That would have been a good psych. They could have included 2, 3 and 4 without any further explanation except "this is cool and we know you want it", and nobody would have complained. The Whisper device was unnecessary.

The Whispers don't really seem to fit in with the established lore of planet life. That lore is already quite rich, so I would have preferred to see them evolve something out of what they already had than add in something new. As far as I can recall, in the Remake the only person who claims to be able to hear the planet is.... Barret. Aerith sees the Whispers, talks to flowers, and knows waaay more than she ought. It would be, to borrow a phrase, 'elegant and organic' if the Whispers were either emanations of the Lifestream or some form of Weapon, but I didn't get the impression that they were intended to be either.

I just don't understand the point of adding a bewildering element like the Whispers to a plot that was never really going to go wildly off track in the first place. They don't symbolise anything interesting, they don't add any layer of significance or meaning. Figuring out exactly what they're doing in this game made me feel like those archaeologists who dedicate their life to deciphering an ancient script, hoping it will reveal mystical writings, only to learn that the clay tablets in their hands are the lists of the contents of a store cupboard.

* After all, people have survived Sephiroth's stabby attacks before.

I didn't mind them using the Whispers and fate as the way to tell the story. They were shown all throughout the game, and played their part for it. For this new story, they are a part of the will of the planet. Will we see how much more they were embedded in the lore? I hope we do, at least in a minor way. Because as of now, the only lore we know is what was explained in the remake. Hopefully the Ultamania will establish more.

I can see why people didn't like them though. Especially for people who didn't want any changes like that

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You got me there, Tres.
However, since Cloud actually did kill Sephiroth, having him remember it this time around isn't a major game-changer - unlike Aerith going willingly to her death.
If she forsees the possibility that she might die but defies that fate because she believes she can triumph and live, I could get on board with that. Very Sophoclean.

Re the Whispers: they are part of the will of the Planet, ok, but what does that mean? We know that materia is condensed mako. We know that the Weapons were deliberately generated by the Planet as means of protecting itself. How does the planet generate the Whispers? What are they made of? Are they made of mako? Are they somehow the remnants of individual souls not yet fully integrated into the lifestream? Does the planet consciously generate them or does it produce them in the same way that I produce red and white blood cells?

Yeah I wanted to add that though the plot demands that Aerith die, I still believe that her death was not necessary in order to save the planet. She could have done what she did without being dead.

 

[Roger]

You got me there, Tres.
However, since Cloud actually did kill Sephiroth, having him remember it this time around isn't a major game-changer - unlike Aerith going willingly to her death.
If she forsees the possibility that she might die but defies that fate because she believes she can triumph and live, I could get on board with that. Very Sophoclean.

Re the Whispers: they are part of the will of the Planet, ok, but what does that mean? We know that materia is condensed mako. We know that the Weapons were deliberately generated by the Planet as means of protecting itself. How does the planet generate the Whispers? What are they made of? Are they made of mako? Are they somehow the remnants of individual souls not yet fully integrated into the lifestream? Does the planet consciously generate them or does it produce them in the same way that I produce red and white blood cells?

Red XIII still acting as sagely and wise with everyone fully knowing he is a child nullifies the reveal at Cosmo Canyon, likewise all the character reveals with Cloud, the existence of Zack, his false status as SOLDIER, what happened with Sephiroth, have also been nullified. Wutai being a dangerous nation still at a fragile ceasefire with Shinra, overhauls the core foundation Yuffie's character. Biggs is alive if not Wedge and Jessie as well. Everyone knows there's a meteor coming already. I don't see how nothing other Aerith's fore knowledge of her death represents a gamechanger.

 

[LNK]

You got me there, Tres.
However, since Cloud actually did kill Sephiroth, having him remember it this time around isn't a major game-changer - unlike Aerith going willingly to her death.
If she forsees the possibility that she might die but defies that fate because she believes she can triumph and live, I could get on board with that. Very Sophoclean.

Re the Whispers: they are part of the will of the Planet, ok, but what does that mean? We know that materia is condensed mako. We know that the Weapons were deliberately generated by the Planet as means of protecting itself. How does the planet generate the Whispers? What are they made of? Are they made of mako? Are they somehow the remnants of individual souls not yet fully integrated into the lifestream? Does the planet consciously generate them or does it produce them in the same way that I produce red and white blood cells?

Yeah I wanted to add that though the plot demands that Aerith die, I still believe that her death was not necessary in order to save the planet. She could have done what she did without being dead.

I'll have to go back through the game and give you a more in depth answer. I don't retain info as well as I'd like to, so I have to hear or read things a couple of times.

I don't remember the remake talking about the WEAPONS, did I miss that? When did they talk about where materia comes from as well? I only remember getting that info from the OG

 

[billy22]

They made the arbiters of fate look like dementors because they suck all the happiness out of every scene they're in.

 

[SpacemanZero]

They dropped a new blog interview today:
The FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE team discuss story, Sephiroth and more

Q: How difficult was it to balance old and new elements in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE?

Hamaguchi-san: To explain our philosophy, it really was a case of being respectful to the original game, and then what were the elements of the original that we had to reimagine to create a more immersive experience?

Most of the additions to the story come from us trying to fill in the gaps from the original game - content that wasn’t included in the original because we couldn’t show it fully with the technology available.

Kitase-san: For example, some of the transitions and the gaps between story beats in the original FINAL FANTASY VII felt a little uneven or didn’t flow all that smoothly. To overcome that in the remake, we put new elements in to make the story feel more continuous.

So you can’t really make a clear distinction between what’s new and what’s from the original in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE. It’s all blended together to make a self-contained story for this first game in the project.

--

Ummm, yeah, about that last part Hamaguchi-san... But, at least it sounds like we're still getting a story that mainly follows the original story, so there's that.

--

Q: Sephiroth appears in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE much earlier than he does in the original game. Why did you make the decision to introduce him here?

Kitase-san: There are two main reasons. Firstly, the way we handled Sephiroth in the original FINAL FANTASY VII was to hide him - hold him back.

You may not know this, but I was inspired by the movie Jaws which took a similar approach of teasing this powerful presence, but never fully showing you the shark until later in the story. We wanted to build him up as this really big, powerful character in people’s minds. By only referring to him indirectly, it created this feeling of fear and oppression - so when he makes his first appearance, it’s a big deal.

But for the remake, that doesn’t work so well - partly because everybody knows who Sephiroth is (laughs)! We didn’t think it would be as effective to have him held back until later on in the story.

Secondly, Sephiroth is this massively overarching presence that looms over the whole FINAL FANTASY VII saga. We wanted to make sure that aspect of him was present in this first game in the project - that’s why we have introduced him much earlier in the story now.

--

This is also pretty sad, and judging by this, we ain't gonna see Aerith die the same way she did in the original, if they're going in with this mindset.

 

[Theozilla]

I don't think she'll have a "Jesus-Death". But the heavy foreshadowing and meta winking in part of the experience we are getting. If Tifa's words about Aerith expecting to be coming back are gonna ring true then before Aerith leaves she needs to act like she will be right back, no need for long goodbyes, or her time being treated with a sense of finality, giving us every chance to do everything we can with her. Which I think is exactly what we are gonna get. But like Makoeyes says, that's more then one way to tell a good story

Having a sense of finality for the player isn't the same thing as the characters themselves consciously aware of their future death. I have no issues with the former, and I would argue that the OG itself also already gave Aerith a "long goodbye", despite her intent to return, in the form of the dream message she gave Cloud when leaving for the Forgotten Capital. The narrative heavily foreshadowing events isn't the same as the characters knowing said events will occur, the latter is a key difference IMO.

We know that, the crew doesn't. Aerith is the one that considers Sephiroth and Jenova the true threat to the planet rather then Cloud as it was in the original game, it stands to reason that she is the one that'll be be expected to explain why rather then Cloud as it was in the original game.

I don't doubt Aerith will play a larger role in explaining stuff about Jenova and thus Sephiroth in the Remake. But that doesn't mean Cloud doesn't have valuable information/input to contribute in the form of the Nibelheim flashback. The Nibelheim flashback is still very important information to tell, both in in-universe to the characters, and an event for the players to experience as well.

The game tells you "the journey is unknown"

You tell me "I still know the journey"

No, you're literally ignoring the message.

I am not telling you that (and I am not ignoring any message). I am saying I am confident that major destinations in the journey will be the same, not that the journey itself will be the same, as I have said before I very much expect the "meat" of the story to have many changes. Also the tagline "the unknown journey will continue" is a very broad statement of meaning, it does not lend itself to one narrow interpretation.

Zack's death wasn't a sacrifice in the original, he just got shot. He did sacrifice himself in Crisis Core. It did not make him a virginal pure pink fairy princess. In my opinion anyway.

Zack was still killed in the process of protecting Cloud in the OG, and in Crisis Core/Remake he was still fighting for his life for the entirety of the Last Stand battle, putting himself at risk isn't the same as him knowing his fate going into the fight. So the CC change is not quite the same comparison to Aerith, if she is indeed changed to consciously knowing that her fate is to die. (also I don't think anyone is saying her knowing her fate makes her a "virginal pure pink fairy princess", just it changes the meaning of a major plot significantly)

Strange that Aerith recognize him as a SOLDIER and a "Merc", but Reno who is a Turk and works for Shinra must be told by Aerith in that very same scene that Cloud is a Soldier. Logically you are right, IRL we can recognize someone from the military by their looks and so on, but this is a video game. By your logic, Jessie, Biggs and Wedge should also have recognized Roche as a Soldier which they did not.

Just like Stamp, IRL Stamps design could be changed without any meaning to it, just a design change. In a video game it can mean many other things and one of the theories is that the Stamp is different in Zack's Last Stand scene is because it is an alternate timeline.

My point is that I believe that they put small clues throughout the game, which one can miss and that Aerith scene in the Church is one of them (that is what I believe)

I think Aerith also specifically recognizes Cloud as a SOLDIER since he is literally carrying Zack's Buster Sword. Also the connection that a SOLDIER who isn't with Shinra, is likely doing mercenary work, is a easy one to make.

This is also pretty sad, and judging by this, we ain't gonna see Aerith die the same way she did in the original, if they're going in with this mindset.

I don't see anything in that new interview that indicates that they are going to make Aerith aware of her fate going into her death. They just talked about general changes and additions as they have done in previous interviews, nothing especially new was revealed in this new interview.

 

[youffie]

Wutai being a dangerous nation still at a fragile ceasefire with Shinra, overhauls the core foundation Yuffie's character.

Speaking of which. Looks like Yuffie's role is gonna be much meatier this time around. I can definitely see her as one of the characters that get expanded the most, which I really wouldn't mind.

But what is Wutai's state in the Remake, really? Like, 99% of what we hear about it is probably Shinra propaganda. For all we know, it's still in a pretty bad shape with exactly zero chances against Shinra, which brings Wutai up whenever it needs to rile the population and gain consensus. But maybe I missed some lore comments here and there.

 

[Via Purifico]

Precisely the opposite:




It doesn't say that anywhere at your link. This is a common misunderstanding (perhaps even fandom fabrication), near as I can tell.

The closest statement to it I know of from any of the developers is this comment from Nomura in a 2005 issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly:

"We knew even in the early concept stage that one character would have to die. But we only had three to choose from. I mean, Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barret... well, that's maybe too obvious. But we had to pick between Aerith and Barret. We debated this for a long time, but in the end decided to sacrifice Aerith... In the previous FF games, it became almost a signature theme for one character to sacrifice him or herself, and often it was a similar character type from game to game, kind of a brave, last-man-standing, Barret-type character. So everyone expected that. And I think that death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic."

Excuse my noob...
I just found this really interesting since the core group at the start of the game is Cloud, Aerith, Tifa and Barret. Obviously Cloud can't die and they discounted Barret, so why did that mean Aerith died? Tifa is listed as the childhood crush of Cloud, so her death would've given an emotive response, the same as Aerith's and the overall story wouldn't have changed either if she died instead. I just found that interesting they picked Aerith to die over Tifa.
I'll just crawl back into my noob hole now...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see anything in that new interview that indicates that they are going to make Aerith aware of her fate going into her death. They just talked about general changes and additions as they have done in previous interviews, nothing especially new was revealed in this new interview.

I think the concern for @SpacemanZero -- and myself as well -- comes from Kitase (the head guy in FF development) explaining that major change with Sephiroth's presence in the story as being "because everybody knows who Sephiroth is" now.

Since everyone knows Aerith dies as well, are they going to feel compelled to shenanigans?

Excuse my noob...
I just found this really interesting since the core group at the start of the game is Cloud, Aerith, Tifa and Barret. Obviously Cloud can't die and they discounted Barret, so why did that mean Aerith died? Tifa is listed as the childhood crush of Cloud, so her death would've given an emotive response, the same as Aerith's and the overall story wouldn't have changed either if she died instead. I just found that interesting they picked Aerith to die over Tifa.
I'll just crawl back into my noob hole now...

Tifa didn't exist yet at that point. This was early early in development.

 

[LNK]

Speaking of which. Looks like Yuffie's role is gonna be much meatier this time around. I can definitely see her as one of the characters that get expanded the most, which I really wouldn't mind.

But what is Wutai's state in the Remake, really? Like, 99% of what we hear about it is probably Shinra propaganda. For all we know, it's still in a pretty bad shape with exactly zero chances against Shinra, which brings Wutai up whenever it needs to rile the population and gain consensus. But maybe I missed some lore comments here and there.

Yeah, we've already seen the lengths Shinra will go, to lie to the public. I'm not gonna assume Wutai matches power with Shinra/Midgar right now. I am looking forward to Yuffie being expanded upon though

 

[billy22]

What gets me is the 'everybody knows' mindset. Does he not believe that a lot of people are playing this for the first time?

 

[LNK]

I think the concern for @SpacemanZero -- and myself as well -- comes from Kitase (the head guy in FF development) explaining that major change with Sephiroth's presence in the story as being "because everybody knows who Sephiroth is" now.

Since everyone knows Aerith dies as well, are they going to feel compelled to shenanigans?


Tifa didn't exist yet at that point. This was early early in development.

I can see your concern. My guess is she's still going to die. Just the lead up to it, or the exact moment will be tweaked a little.

Spoiler

kind of like President Shinra. When I didn't see him impaled with Masamune, I was surprised. I had no idea how he would die now. Then when Sephiroth did actually kill him a few min later, I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Theozilla]

I think the concern for @SpacemanZero -- and myself as well -- comes from Kitase (the head guy in FF development) explaining that major change with Sephiroth's presence in the story as being "because everybody knows who Sephiroth is" now.

Since everyone knows Aerith dies as well, are they going to feel compelled to shenanigans?

Hmmm, I can understand that anxiety and it is a valid one (but I still personally have faith the developers won't go that route), and I also wouldn't say that Sephiroth's presence no longer being Jaws-esque is automatic definite evidence that the nature of Aerith's is going to be changed.

Tifa didn't exist yet at that point in development. This was early early in development.

Also wasn't Tifa's creation partially prompted by that early early development decision to kill off proto-Aerith, because they still wanted a female heroine for the latter half of the OG?

 

[Via Purifico]

Hmmm, I can understand that anxiety and it is a valid one (but I still personally have faith the developers won't go that route), and I also wouldn't say that Sephiroth's presence no longer being Jaws-esque is automatic definite evidence that the nature of Aerith's is going to be changed.


Also wasn't Tifa's creation partially prompted by that early early development decision to kill off proto-Aerith, because they still wanted a female heroine for the latter half of the OG?

Was I the only one scared shitless of Sephiroth still whenever he appeared? Cloud's terror perfectly translated how the player should feel seeing him imo.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

I think Aerith also specifically recognizes Cloud as a SOLDIER since he is literally carrying Zack's Buster Sword. Also the connection that a SOLDIER who isn't with Shinra, is likely doing mercenary work, is a easy one to make.

That actually makes more sense, but we will not know for sure We can only speculate and guess right now.

 

[Eerie]

Yes, they decided to create Tifa precisely because they were killing off Aerith.

Let's say Aerith doesn't die. Welp, Tifa still cannot die either because she is the key to Cloud's development, so they can't off her either. It's not a zero sum, as I have said before, you can't say "this time we'll keep Aerith alive and kill off Tifa" because you can't exchange their roles. Aerith's role may be doable without dying, but Tifa needs to be there for Cloud, and Aerith cannot take her place for that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Except Remake Aerith can now mindmeld and see both past and future, so she could definitely fill Tifa's role in putting Cloud's persona together, just in a different way.

 

[ForceStealer]

Was I the only one scared shitless of Sephiroth still whenever he appeared? Cloud's terror perfectly translated how the player should feel seeing him imo.

I do agree with this. Prior to his appearance in Chapter 18, I found all his earlier appearances genuinely frightening/unsettling. That was something I definitely feel they nailed.

 

[Roger]

Having a sense of finality for the player isn't the same thing as the characters themselves consciously aware of their future death. I have no issues with the former, and I would argue that the OG itself also already gave Aerith a "long goodbye", despite her intent to return, in the form of the dream message she gave Cloud when leaving for the Forgotten Capital. The narrative heavily foreshadowing events isn't the same as the characters knowing said events will occur, the latter is a key difference IMO.

Cloud wouldn't be on the second Mako Reactor mission without the guardians of fate to ensure it happens, Aerith would die in the church, Barret would die in Shinra building, the gang would probably succeed in killing Hojo, or Hojo would finish telling them about what Cloud really is, ectera. The guardians aren't around to guide them down fate's path anymore, but the world's layout is still the same, Nibelheim flashback will still be largely the same being the past and all, Barret's existing problems in Corel will still be largely same (Although Dyne might now have a second lease on life), the mystery rebuilt Nibelhheim will still exist, the location of the Black Materia is still the same, Aerith's death however, that's a lot less definite. We had the whole thing with the fate, and the fate they were being led down was one where Aerith dies (Cloud certainly all but sees it in his visions). This will be where it matters where they are continuing to walk down the fate they are now free to move away from or not the most. I can't see them not acknowledging it. And then Aerith probably still going to Forgotten City anyway.

Zack was still killed in the process of protecting Cloud in the OG, and in Crisis Core/Remake he was still fighting for his life for the entirety of the Last Stand battle, putting himself at risk isn't the same as him knowing his fate going into the fight. So the CC change is not quite the same comparison to Aerith, if she is indeed changed to consciously knowing that her fate is to die.

I don't think Zack was expecting to survive, unlike OG Aerith.

Speaking of which. Looks like Yuffie's role is gonna be much meatier this time around. I can definitely see her as one of the characters that get expanded the most, which I really wouldn't mind.

But what is Wutai's state in the Remake, really? Like, 99% of what we hear about it is probably Shinra propaganda. For all we know, it's still in a pretty bad shape with exactly zero chances against Shinra, which brings Wutai up whenever it needs to rile the population and gain consensus. But maybe I missed some lore comments here and there.

I'm sure even with Sephiroth's death Wutai's chances are hopeless. But being a hated and feared enemy of the people that Shinra spreads propaganda too (essentially the whole world) and being a humiliated tourist resort that lost it's pride in Yuffie's eyes seem fairly mutually exclusive.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I would have liked President Shinra to have been given some plausible motive, beyond his general villainy, for wanting to re-start a war with Wutai. I can think of several possibilities, but the game suggested none.