SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
What gets me is the 'everybody knows' mindset. Does he not believe that a lot of people are playing this for the first time?
I mean, even if you didnt play the OG 7, Sephiroth is one of the biggest names in all of gaming's history. He appeared in many FFVII-related works, and many FF-related too. He is a really big name in the villains book.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Cloud wouldn't be on the second Mako Reactor mission without the guardians of fate to ensure it happens, Aerith would die in the church, Barret would die in Shinra building, the gang would probably succeed in killing Hojo, or Hojo would finish telling them about what Cloud really is, ectera. The guardians aren't around to guide them down fate's path anymore, but the world's layout is still the same, Nibelheim flashback will still be largely the same being the past and all, Barret's existing problems in Corel will still be largely same (Although Dyne might now have a second lease on life), the mystery rebuilt Nibelhheim will still exist, the location of the Black Materia is still the same, Aerith's death however, that's a lot less definite. We had the whole thing with the fate, and the fate they were being led down was one where Aerith dies (Cloud certainly all but sees it in his visions). This will be where it matters where they are continuing to walk down the fate they are now free to move away from or not the most. I can't see them not acknowledging it. And then Aerith probably still going to Forgotten City anyway.
The game acknowledging it in terms of foreshadowing (which I definitely expect there to be more of) doesn't mean Aerith will know of her fate going into it though. I've already explained why I have faith she will remain unaware of her fate, my reasons for believing so certainly don't mean you have to, just to be clear.

I don't think Zack was expecting to survive, unlike OG Aerith.
Eh, this is another thing we'll just have to agree to disagree on then. I don't think "expectation" was really ever registering in Zack's mind at all, and I definitely think he was fighting his hardest to survive and make it through to get to Aerith too.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Except Remake Aerith can now mindmeld and see both past and future, so she could definitely fill Tifa's role in putting Cloud's persona together, just in a different way.

I don't believe that she can replace other characters - Tifa could help Cloud because she IS Tifa, because she lived next to Cloud for years when they were kids, because they have history together.

I don't believe in goddess!Aerith either, I believe that she is maybe more aware than in the OG, but hopeful that her fate can change still.
 

Via Purifico

Pro Adventurer
Except Remake Aerith can now mindmeld and see both past and future, so she could definitely fill Tifa's role in putting Cloud's persona together, just in a different way.
That's the reason why I think Sephiroth's allusion to Cloud having seven seconds to save someone will come down to a choice between Aerith and Tifa because now the story can progress with either of them in the role of his saviour. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Square to have a branching storyline after disc two with two disc 3s that have Tifa/Cloud as one route and Aerith/Cloud as the other and people can choose what their canon is.


I would have liked President Shinra to have been given some plausible motive, beyond his general villainy, for wanting to re-start a war with Wutai. I can think of several possibilities, but the game suggested none.
Greed is enough for most bad guys and it's not like he lived very long anyway so being 1 dimensional still is fine imo
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
That's the reason why I think Sephiroth's allusion to Cloud having seven seconds to save someone will come down to a choice between Aerith and Tifa because now the story can progress with either of them in the role of his saviour. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Square to have a branching storyline after disc two with two disc 3s that have Tifa/Cloud as one route and Aerith/Cloud as the other and people can choose what their canon is.

That would pretty much kill FFVII Remake. Not because I'm a CloTi shipper or because I especially want Aerith dead (I don't have anything against her character this time around, but narratively, yes I do), but at some point if you want a solid story you cannot have two endings that are so different UNLESS if you chose the Aerith path then everything goes wrong and the Planet is destroyed. That is the only way the two paths would work to me.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
The game acknowledging it in terms of foreshadowing (which I definitely expect there to be more of) doesn't mean Aerith will know of her fate going into it though. I've already explained why I have faith she will remain unaware of her fate, my reasons for believing so certainly don't mean you have to, just to be clear.

Foreshadowing it to us is a given. But Remake has already foreshadowed it to them. Cloud's seen the Sector Seven plate drop in a vision and then it happened. They'll be mindful of the glimpses they've seen of things yet to come. Or I really have a hard time understanding why Nomura felt this fate stuff belonged in the story if he simply can't ever have the characters follow up on it.

Eh, this is another thing we'll just have to agree to disagree on then. I don't think "expectation" was really ever registering in Zack's mind at all, and I definitely think he was fighting his hardest to survive and make it through to get to Aerith too.

When he remarked that the price of freedom of steep, that had to be some kind of reflection of what the numbers in front of him implied about his chances.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Foreshadowing it to us is a given. But Remake has already foreshadowed it to them. Cloud's seen the Sector Seven plate drop in a vision and then it happened. They'll be mindful of the glimpses they've seen of things yet to come. Or I really have a hard time understanding why Nomura felt this fate stuff belonged in the story if he simply can't ever have the characters follow up on it.
Cloud's Sector 7 vision its exactly what I am talking about. Cloud has a Whisper-induced vision of the plate's destruction but he doesn't understand or even consciously process what he see. Same with his vision of Aerith's death when he introduces himself at the start of Chapter 8. Cloud is not consciously aware/comprehending any of the visions he has.
Besides the numerous developer interviews giving me faith, that specific trend in this first installment gives me confidence that even with heavy handed foreshadowing, Aerith won't be consciously aware of her fate when she goes to meet it.

When he remarked that the price of freedom of steep, that had to be some kind of reflection of what the numbers in front of him implied about his chances.
He's certainly aware of the heavy risk he is taking no doubt, but that is not the same as him going into it with the full expectation that he will definitely die.
 

Via Purifico

Pro Adventurer
That would pretty much kill FFVII Remake. Not because I'm a CloTi shipper or because I especially want Aerith dead (I don't have anything against her character this time around, but narratively, yes I do), but at some point if you want a solid story you cannot have two endings that are so different UNLESS if you chose the Aerith path then everything goes wrong and the Planet is destroyed. That is the only way the two paths would work to me.
Oh I agree. My anxiety about Aerith living is level 99 lol. I love the changes made to the remake, but there's some things you just don't mess with and her death is iconic. How can they change that without shitting over the thing they claim to love? But, I also like the idea that if you choose Aerith it becomes a bad ending which cements the canon death, so if that was a dlc showing what happens when fans get their way and she lives I'd play it for defs.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
I'm sure even with Sephiroth's death Wutai's chances are hopeless. But being a hated and feared enemy of the people that Shinra spreads propaganda too (essentially the whole world) and being a humiliated tourist resort that lost it's pride in Yuffie's eyes seem fairly mutually exclusive.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fact that it's probably not a tourist resort anymore doesn't mean it's not a humiliated country that cowers before Shinra. But we'll have to see, it's clearly going to be very different from what we got in the OG.

Also, all this talk about Tifa dying instead of Aerith is making my heart sink
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Cloud's Sector 7 vision its exactly what I am talking about. Cloud has a Whisper-induced vision of the plate's destruction but he doesn't understand or even consciously process what he see. Same with his vision of Aerith's death when he introduces himself at the start of Chapter 8. Cloud is not consciously aware/comprehending any of the visions he has.
Besides the numerous developer interviews giving me faith, that specific trend in this first installment gives me confidence that even with heavy handed foreshadowing, Aerith won't be consciously aware of her fate when she goes to meet it.

He didn't comprehend what he was seeing the first time, he was concious enough to brace against stuff from the pillar falling down on him though. He did not have context to believe it the future until the actual plate drop, it was the first vision he had. Now he knows that fate is a thing, that he saw the plate drop and that the guardians proceeded to make sure it happened. When they saw Red XIII and his kids, they turned to actual Red XIII in the present when going "what the hell". They are concious of what they see, at least to some extent.

I'll agree to disagree on Zack.
 

billy22

Pro Adventurer
That's the reason why I think Sephiroth's allusion to Cloud having seven seconds to save someone will come down to a choice between Aerith and Tifa because now the story can progress with either of them in the role of his saviour. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Square to have a branching storyline after disc two with two disc 3s that have Tifa/Cloud as one route and Aerith/Cloud as the other and people can choose what their canon is.
I would. Zero chance of them making two games with a different branch for each based on a choice from game 2.

They set up Aerith dying throughout this game a few times. She's still going to perish. But they'll change the manner in which it happens I bet.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
He didn't comprehend what he was seeing the first time, he was concious enough to brace against stuff from the pillar falling down on him though. He did not have context to believe it the future until the actual plate drop, it was the first vision he had. Now he knows that fate is a thing, that he saw the plate drop and that the guardians proceeded to make sure it happened. When they saw Red XIII and his kids, they turned to actual Red XIII in the present when going "what the hell". They are concious of what they see, at least to some extent.

I'll agree to disagree on Zack.
He physically reacted to the visions sure, but he still didn't comprehend/process them. He didn't have conscious future knowledge the plate was going to drop, as Corneo's revelation is still a surprise to Cloud.
Also the visions that occur during the Whisper Harbinger boss fight are presented in a different context than the ones Cloud gets throughout the rest of the Remake. The ones in the former, the entire party are seeing so it's understandable they have a more lucid understanding to them, the latter ones only Cloud is experiencing (in a very glitched out manner) and doesn't process them.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
He physically reacted to the visions sure, but he still didn't comprehend/process them. He didn't have conscious future knowledge the plate was going to drop, as Corneo's revelation is still a surprise to Cloud.
Also the visions that occur during the Whisper Harbinger boss fight are presented in a different context than the ones Cloud gets throughout the rest of the Remake. The ones in the former, the entire party are seeing so it's understandable they have a more lucid understanding to them, the latter ones only Cloud is experiencing (in a very glitched out manner) and doesn't process them.
He got two more flashes of Aerith's death in Chapter 18. It exists in his mind to some degree.
 

Via Purifico

Pro Adventurer
I would. Zero chance of them making two games with a different branch for each based on a choice from game 2.

They set up Aerith dying throughout this game a few times. She's still going to perish. But they'll change the manner in which it happens I bet.
It's Square, so I discount nothing when it comes to crazy ideas lol. My main theory is Aerith would initially be saved from the canon death, but then something happens to show her that her living would result in a bad ending for the planet, and since that's what she's trying so hard to protect she'd have this big resolution scene - possibly adding in a throwback to hers anc Cloud's scene in disc 1 - where she makes up her mind to do the right thing in this moment, which is a theme she pushed in disc one too. But again, Square.

He physically reacted to the visions sure, but he still didn't comprehend/process them. He didn't have conscious future knowledge the plate was going to drop, as Corneo's revelation is still a surprise to Cloud.
Also the visions that occur during the Whisper Harbinger boss fight are presented in a different context than the ones Cloud gets throughout the rest of the Remake. The ones in the former, the entire party are seeing so it's understandable they have a more lucid understanding to them, the latter ones only Cloud is experiencing (in a very glitched out manner) and doesn't process them.
PTSD truama accounts for him not processing his visions imo. He can't trust what he sees or remembers, and I love that it goes against him in these situations.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
He got two more flashes of Aerith's death in Chapter 18. It exists in his mind to some degree.
In Cloud's mind sure, but he doesn't understand them regardless. The important part of my point, is that Aerith doesn't know her death is going to happen before it happens to her. For the sake of avoiding further circular discussion I think this is another point we'll just have to agree to disagree on.
Anyways, eventually we'll who is right/wrong come the next Remake installment (though maybe even the next installment will spawn multiple interpretations of her death scene too:P).
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I don't remember Cloud having visions of Aeriths death though. There was light covering who was standing in the pool at forgotten city. We know that's him and Aerith from the OG death scene. But idk if Cloud assumes that's their actual future
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
He got two more flashes of Aerith's death in Chapter 18. It exists in his mind to some degree.
TiMe GhOsTs

But considering he has Jenova's cells and Jenova/Seph are connected to the Lifestream, and assuming the flow of destiny is imprinted on it as a form of knowledge, then Cloud can involuntary receive those flashes of the future.

I'm sure the Lifestream functions like Chaos now, I've seen madness before.
 

SpacemanZero

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I think the concern for @SpacemanZero -- and myself as well -- comes from Kitase (the head guy in FF development) explaining that major change with Sephiroth's presence in the story as being "because everybody knows who Sephiroth is" now.

Since everyone knows Aerith dies as well, are they going to feel compelled to shenanigans?

I can see your concern. My guess is she's still going to die. Just the lead up to it, or the exact moment will be tweaked a little.

kind of like President Shinra. When I didn't see him impaled with Masamune, I was surprised. I had no idea how he would die now. Then when Sephiroth did actually kill him a few min later, I was pleasantly surprised.
Hmmm, I can understand that anxiety and it is a valid one (but I still personally have faith the developers won't go that route), and I also wouldn't say that Sephiroth's presence no longer being Jaws-esque is automatic definite evidence that the nature of Aerith's is going to be changed.

Also wasn't Tifa's creation partially prompted by that early early development decision to kill off proto-Aerith, because they still wanted a female heroine for the latter half of the OG?

Yeah, this is what I meant partially. But only partially, because I'm open to change and I don't see the shock value anymore at all. I think the way she dies can change, as long as she dies (it still has to be thoughtfully done of course).

Aerith's death can be found probably on every list that rates "the most iconic video game moments ever" or "the most iconic video game character deaths ever". You can bet you'll find her around top 3 or top 5 every time. That scene is known to people outside Final Fantasy VII and outside Final Fantasy, outside JRPGs. And I'll bet a major amount of FF7 Remake players that are first time players of FF7 will get spoiled of that scene before part two releases, if they didn't already know about it.

I guess the question is do they feel the same way about that scene as they did with the setup for Sephiroth. Is it too iconic, that you just can't touch it at all, or is it exactly because it's too iconic and everyone knows it's coming, that you have to do something else with it? I'm pretty sure the buildup is at least a bit different this time, but I'm not sure about the execution (hah) yet.

Was I the only one scared shitless of Sephiroth still whenever he appeared? Cloud's terror perfectly translated how the player should feel seeing him imo.

Yeah, I was perfectly fine with how they handled him, especially the scenes in chapter 2-3 and Shinra HQ. Sephiroth felt genuinely scary and I loved the voice actor. I'm just a little that sad that they felt they had to do it this way and that they didn't have trust for the slower buildup this time also. There were many ways they could have done a climax to this game without a Sephiroth fight (yeah, yeah, it's not the real Sephiroth, but anyway).
 
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pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, this is what I meant partially. But only partially, because I'm open to change and I don't see the shock value anymore at all. I think the way she dies can change, as long as she dies (it still has to be thoughtfully done of course).

Aerith's death can be found probably on every list that rates "the most iconic video game moments ever" or "the most iconic video game character deaths ever". You can bet you'll find her around top 3 or top 5 every time. That scene is known to people outside Final Fantasy VII and outside Final Fantasy, outside JRPGs. And I'll bet a major amount of FF7 Remake players that are first time players of FF7 will get spoiled of that scene before part two releases, if they didn't already know about it.

I guess the question is do they feel the same way about that scene as they did with the setup for Sephiroth. Is it too iconic, that you just can't touch it at all, or is it exactly because it's too iconic and everyone knows it's coming, that you have to do something else with it? I'm pretty sure the buildup is at least a bit different this time, but I'm not sure about the execution (hah) yet.
This is what I am really worried about, because I am conflicted myself. I want so many things to happen. I want her death to be surprising and maybe prolonged to make us feel like we can actually succeed and save her, but I want the elements of that iconic scene to stay the same because it holds so much "power".

Unlike President's Shinra's death that was changed, Aerith's death happened in cinematic glory of epic slow motion. It hit many people in their hearts. Some people might joke about it but it is something that stay in people's mind.

And about Sephiroth, I totally agree that EVERYONE who plays this game knows him. New and old players alike unless it is their first game and they never spoke to someone who played FF games... basically someone living under a rock.

Unfortunately, it is quite the same with Aerith's death. Even if some people came playing without knowing, the years coming before the next installment will make sure they do. Unless they go creep under a rock... lol
 
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badjuju

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
JJ
Q: Sephiroth appears in FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE much earlier than he does in the original game. Why did you make the decision to introduce him here?

Kitase-san: There are two main reasons. Firstly, the way we handled Sephiroth in the original FINAL FANTASY VII was to hide him - hold him back.

You may not know this, but I was inspired by the movie Jaws which took a similar approach of teasing this powerful presence, but never fully showing you the shark until later in the story. We wanted to build him up as this really big, powerful character in people’s minds. By only referring to him indirectly, it created this feeling of fear and oppression - so when he makes his first appearance, it’s a big deal.

But for the remake, that doesn’t work so well - partly because everybody knows who Sephiroth is (laughs)! We didn’t think it would be as effective to have him held back until later on in the story.

I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around Kitase's logic here.

Is the shark in Jaws less effective as a villain just because "everybody knows" who the shark from Jaws is?

Is it still not a "big deal" to a new viewer when the shark finally appears on screen just because the shark has become a pop culture icon?

Does the way the shark is built up in Jaws somehow make it a worse movie the second time you watch it?
 

Kazuma

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
metalic_cloud
I think Aerith not dying will ruin the legacy of Hironobu Sakaguchi... like he explained how death was a concept he wanted from the very beginning. Either Barret or Aerith. Funny they included that in the Remake :))

 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around Kitase's logic here.

Is the shark in Jaws less effective as a villain just because "everybody knows" who the shark from Jaws is?

Is it still not a "big deal" to a new viewer when the shark finally appears on screen just because the shark has become a pop culture icon?

Does the way the shark is built up in Jaws somehow make it a worse movie the second time you watch it?
It doesn't make it worse, but when you watch it the 2nd time, you know it's coming.

I definitely get why they changed Sephiroth's introduction. Which, I loved it. Especially with "those chosen by the planet" being played. I also see the flip side of the coin. To other people, they thought how he was introduced in the OG was perfect, so why change it. I think either way, people would be split on it
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
If I were to be honest in regards to my preference, I would say that I would want Aerith to be aware of her death being something fated to occur.

I would want that emotional juxtaposition of Aerith knowing her demise was looming over her future, and her attempts at living a positive life all while trying to change the future for herself and the planet.

One thing FFVII Remake emphasized is was that regardless of what fate or the future may hold, it is the individual that defines themselves based on the choices they make. The future may be doomed or it may simply be a blank slate, yet it ultimately isn't about where the destination may lead. It's about the choices one makes that define who they are. Aerith being confronted with that struggle while also trying to avert disaster would be an interesting direction to take this modern adaption given the nuance that would be used to have Aerith conceal this information from everyone else, until it becomes something that's undeniable. Either Cloud reveals he saw it too, or Aerith breaks down and reveals she knows that the Forgotten Capital is where her journey ends.

Upon that revelation, I would want Cloud and the others to work their damndest to avoid her predetermined fate, with them seemingly succeeding when they actually interrupt Sephiroth from executing Aerith, and proceed to defeat Jenova LIFE . Aerith and Cloud releasing a sigh of relief and proceed to leave.

Only for Aerith to end up dead anyways. Because Sephiroth swooped down from elsewhere, and she simply died elsewhere but the alter.

The best thing the writer's could do is not play to the expectation of Aerith's death 1:1 in terms of the OG. It wouldn't be the same nor would it carry the same impact as it did in 1997. It simply can't. Aerith's death inhabits it's own space within pop culture. The zeitgeist that allowed for her death to be memorable and significant does not exist anymore. Everyone knows she dies. Pretending that is not the case only feeds into the safety of nostalgia. It wouldn't offer anything new aside from the same script with an updated pallet. If the writer's want to evoke a similar experience and emotion that was captured back in 1997, they'll have to craft the experience for 2020, and the situational awareness that exists in the present.

They have to fool the audience. The writer's must challenge the player's perception and expectation of what will come from Aerith's experience and ultimate fate. Because if they don't, the emotional impact will either be blunted, or misdirected in simply focusing on adherence to what came before. That's not going to evoke a uniquely memorable experience. It'll simply be a copy.

That's why I'm certain the entire purpose of the "change our fate" plot, is to serve as a means of eradicating the audience's safety net of using the OG as a guide to expectations. They've torn up our map, so now the writers can lead us to the same locations of the OG, through different unmarked roads that create their own unique experiences. And despite leading to the same destination, we won't see it coming until it's too late.

I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around Kitase's logic here.

Is the shark in Jaws less effective as a villain just because "everybody knows" who the shark from Jaws is?

Is it still not a "big deal" to a new viewer when the shark finally appears on screen just because the shark has become a pop culture icon?

Does the way the shark is built up in Jaws somehow make it a worse movie the second time you watch it?

He's literally saying what I just said.

The Jaws of 1975 cannot be duplicated in 2020 because Jaws has entered the collective pop culture knowledge and experience through it's own fame and notoriety. A duplication of that same formula would only be treading the same well-worn path that everyone knows and expects. It'd be a novelty and purist favoring, yet it would not offer anything but the same regurgitated experience.

Kitase wants to portray Sephiroth in a way that's adapted to the era the Remake inhabits currently. It'd be a waste of the character since the first game is meant to be able to stand alone as a game. That means not wasting showcasing it's main villain; it needs to change it's pacing to fit the adaption model it is using. Pretending no one has awareness of Sephiroth and repeating the introduction of his character that already put him at the heights of pop culture notoriety, does nothing new to advance the character or create a unique and creative experience for a new generation. However, tailoring the Remake experience in a manner that utilizes him in a creative way, does more than copy the same situation of the OG. It allows for Sephiroth to make a fresh, memorable impact which goes beyond what's expected. It allows for the experience to carve it's own unique space. This is why Nojima has rewritten the script entirely. This is why Kitase has changed the way things have been ordered in the story. This is why they are teasing the expectations of everyone.

They're not trying to make a perfect copy of FFVII 1997. They're trying to "remake" the experience of FFVII in a unique way that fits this era, not the nineties.
 
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