SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

More than anything else, at the end of the day, it's really just about this direction being what spoke to the developers at the time. That's that, and that's fair enough -- but if they're going to go and offer reasoning, we should feel more than welcome to question that reasoning when it is, frankly, kind of dumb.

And direction is truly a subjective thing to experience. I understand completely the way one direction may not resonate with another, however I believe that in fairness, if something isn't going for that route in the first place, why fault them for it?

I think their reasoning for referencing Jaws in comparison to Sephiroth makes sense; Kitase's speaking about how he was inspired by Jaws when originally writing the game and his character back in '97. Because yes, everyone knowing who and what the lurking terror is due to said terror being ubiquitous in popular culture does ring true. How is it dumb to retool the hook in order to adapt to his current place within the public's consciousness?

It's not like the original presentation wasn't a slow burn either, or that the psychological stuff didn't come into play.

Yes it was a slow burn. However, for Cloud, it wasn't the personalized, psychological tug-of-war against Sephiroth in the OG. Instead, it was a gradual unraveling of the player's perception and trust in Cloud's experience, which showcased Cloud's function as an unreliable narrator. The mental lapses and distortions inflicted on his psyche played out as an unreliable, and questioning experience that called into question everything we knew about the chain of events in the story. The Remake is going for that angle still, but it's now a more personal examination of Cloud's inner mental turmoil and conflict with Sephiroth, who exists not just as a villain that threatens the world, but an antagonist for Cloud's mental well being.

Never say without an unnecessary personal dig what can be said with one, right?

That wasn't personal at all. Predator, T-800, Jason, and a Tyranasaurus Rex aren't characters who carry nuance. Unless we're looking at the T-800 from T2 or the Predator from it's subsequent sequels where it exhibits the classic honorable approach in hunting its prey. Those examples used before are not personable villains who psychologically torture or get personal with their enemies. They merely exist as forces of destruction that must be conquered or else.

I believe you are the only one present who has alluded to such a formula.

I was referencing the criticism that Sephiroth only works when shown less, in reference to the OG.

Btw: as an aside, I'm unsure about the dynamics of Jenova in this version. It appears at least 2 of the clones rescued Jenova from the HQ. With Zack's strange inclusion in the ending where he appears very much alive, I get the odd feeling he is supposed to be the Number 2 "this guy are sick" guy.

...Wait, what? How would that even be the case? Are you saying the Zack being shown in the past is an imposter Sephiroth copy, carrying Cloud to Midgar?

 

[HeavyTank]

...Wait, what? How would that even be the case? Are you saying the Zack being shown in the past is an imposter Sephiroth copy, carrying Cloud to Midgar?

No, I was presuming he became like that after Sep starts exerting his influence. In the original game, there is an Ex-Soldier in Junon who changes to black after your initial meeting. It's possible that Zack drops dead after the camera cuts away though its odd his scenes would be included in the whispers/destiny section if nothing of the past is being changed. So if Zack is now still alive who could he be and what is he doing?

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sephiroth_Clone
also whoever updated this wiki has a completely different interpretation to what happened to Mako (Number 49) than I did.

wiki: Marco is used several times by Sephiroth as the host for his physical appearance, eventually being used as the host body for assassinating President Shinra, and fighting the party as Jenova Dreamweaver. He is killed when Jenova's body is, and his body is extracted by II.

I thought Mako was destroyed and it was Jenova's body that Number 2 collected off the ground.

 

[badjuju]

Predator, T-800, Jason, and a Tyranasaurus Rex aren't characters who carry nuance.

TBH, I've never found Sephiroth to be particularly nuanced, either?

Like, he's your typical JRPG badass who gains a God Complex one day and decides it's his birthright to destroy the world. When he began to appear in other forms of media, like AC and KH2, I always hoped they'd expand upon his character, but the only thing that's ever come of it has been his weird obsession with Cloud and various remixes of One-Winged Angel. To me, he has no arc, no growth, no real complexity. Despite being far-and-away the most ubiquitous Final Fantasy character of all time, his entire personality has been stuck firmly between malignant narcissism and exaggerated obscurantism for over two decades.

This lack of depth is another part of why I don't think it's wise for SE to use him as much as they insist upon. I actually think he works better as the inaccessible "force of destruction" like the Predator or the shark from Jaws, because to me he's always been closer to them than he has character studies like Hannibal Lector or Darth Vader.

I'm also perfectly willing to admit these are just my opinions on the character, and that Sephiroth means different things to different people. So, like I said before, agree to disagree.

 

[Makoeyes987]

TBH, I've never found Sephiroth to be particularly nuanced, either?

Like, he's your typical JRPG badass who gains a God Complex one day and decides it's his birthright to destroy the world. When he began to appear in other forms of media, like AC and KH2, I always hoped they'd expand upon his character, but the only thing that's ever come of it has been his weird obsession with Cloud and various remixes of One-Winged Angel. To me, he has no arc, no growth, no real complexity. Despite being far-and-away the most ubiquitous Final Fantasy character of all time, his entire personality has been stuck firmly between malignant narcissism and exaggerated obscurantism for over two decades.

He's typical JRPG badass because he pioneered the trope. He was one of the first, so for you and a lot of individuals, yes. He may come across as less due to the fact he's been around since the genre became mainstreamed in the West. However, just because you discount his character and ascribe Kingdom Hearts greater meaning than it's warranted, doesn't take away from his primary role here or what the writers are doing within his own story. There's no "weird" obsession. It's a clear and defined rivalry, steeped in hatred. That's no weirder than the rivalry "obsessions" carried out by villains across fiction throughout time. Moriarty, Raoh, Light, Ganondorf, Tomura Shigaraki, Voldemort, Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, etc etc etc... Villains have rivals, hold grudges and, carry hatred to those they feel are egregious obstacles or threats to their ambitions. Those dualistic relationships in fiction serve as the backbone of archenemy relationships.

This lack of depth is another part of why I don't think it's wise for SE to use him as much as they insist upon. I actually think he works better as the inaccessible "force of destruction" like the Predator or the shark from Jaws, because to me he's always been closer to them than he has character studies like Hannibal Lector or Darth Vader.

That's hilariously off base in regards to Sephiroth's character and history, just on it's face. He may have held such shallowness as a "force of destruction" in the OG but unless you've divorced yourself from FF for the past twenty-plus years, he's been expanded beyond that. From his tragic backstory as an artificially created tool of war, and isolated soldier who held the bonds with his friends close, he's been showcased as an admirable, if taciturn soldier. He's shown himself as more than a force of destruction, and on the flip side his vengeful spirit has been shown him to be demonic and a shadow of his former self. His attitude and emotional portrayals beneath his cool facade speak to his development. Sephiroth has always carried depth beyond a giant man-eating shark. And the "obsession" he has with Cloud speaks to the fragility of his ego which was built around the fact he was beyond ordinary people. Someone as ordinary as Cloud shattering that image was a narcissistic assault he could never recover from and it served as the core emotion that allowed him to cheat death. You're free to believe a character like Sephiroth is two-dimensional all you like. However if you simply refuse to measure the depth of a body of water, and only look at it's surface, then you could wind up labeling body of water a pond or puddle.

 

[Claymore]

No way in hell I'm reading 52 pages.

No. Just no.

All I can say is that I loved what they did. It keeps the original and the corresponding games / material 'sacred' as so many people wanted it anyway, and allows this to be a pseudo Back To The Future Part II re-tred / sequel.

Bring it on.

I'm so ready for this. Loved it.

 

[pollenainne]

Ok so based on the interview linked before plus Episode 5 of Inside FF7 Remake interview... it seems that the entire Remake story is a retcon of FF7 and not an AU. Vid is here in case you haven't seen it yet, skipped it to Kitase talking about the game depiction.

He talked about Cloud falling 100 meter being unreasonable... and in the game the answer was Whispers guiding him there.

Coupled with the interview where they say:

Hamaguchi-san: Most of the additions to the story come from us trying to fill in the gaps from the original game - content that wasn’t included in the original because we couldn’t show it fully with the technology available.
Kitase-san: For example, some of the transitions and the gaps between story beats in the original FINAL FANTASY VII felt a little uneven or didn’t flow all that smoothly. To overcome that in the remake, we put new elements in to make the story feel more continuous.

From my understanding, they are going for "The Whispers have always been canon you just didn't know it" kinda view. They are the answers to the plot holes and unbelievable things happening in FF7 OG. I'm not sure if this also applies to the ending but we shall see.

Or I am completely misunderstanding everything

 

[pollenainne]

I was pertaining to the fact that he is saying there are a lot of unrealistic aspects in the OG that needs to be explained. He gave the example of Cloud falling 100 meters. And lo and behold the answers were Whispers.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There are an awful lot of unrealistic elements in the Remake, though, like Tifa floating in the air to repeatedly punch aerial enemies. Or Jessie thinking Cloud is hotter than Biggs. Or Wedge surviving Platefall. Nobody has ever looked to SE for realistic physics! Nobody cared that Cloud falling all that way without even a scratch wasn't physically possible!

 

[snatchr]

I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around Kitase's logic here.

Is the shark in Jaws less effective as a villain just because "everybody knows" who the shark from Jaws is?

Is it still not a "big deal" to a new viewer when the shark finally appears on screen just because the shark has become a pop culture icon?

Does the way the shark is built up in Jaws somehow make it a worse movie the second time you watch it?

Yeah I really don't understand how... Disposable? Media is to people. Are surprises the only value a story has to them? And if so how long can that last before its again just something that happens? My favorite movie is still my favorite movie even though I can quote it from start to finish.

 

[Wol]

we all know the only reason Seph appears so early (and in some cases even gratuitously) is his marketing appeal, otherwise he's just a stalking creep spouting cryptic lines about him being Cloud's everything (lol).

also they needed an excuse to reuse OWA.

 

[youffie]

Or Jessie thinking Cloud is hotter than Biggs.

I feel personally attacked

 

[snatchr]

For the record I'm more talking about changing story events to catch veterans off guard, less than how Sephiroth is adapted. It comes across as little more than a temporary novelty to trick people that think they know the story by giving them an entirely different story. I don't see the longterm value in a cheap trick.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

His attitude and emotional portrayals beneath his cool facade speak to his development. Sephiroth has always carried depth beyond a giant man-eating shark.

lol No, he hasn't. The core of the character -- on a narrative, textual within-the-fiction basis -- is literally just hatred.

That's not a diminishment of the character. That's just an acknowledgement of his role, and what defines him at both the narrative and literary level.

He isn't and has never been meant to be a character whom you see where he's coming from or understand how he started down his dark road. He's utterly unrelatable, and that's perfectly fine, because he fills the role the stories called for.

Ok so based on the interview linked before plus Episode 5 of Inside FF7 Remake interview... it seems that the entire Remake story is a retcon of FF7 and not an AU.

Nomura recently specified that the remake is a separate universe from the original and doesn't overwrite it:

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-overwrite-original/

 

[Eerie]

I agree, I never particularly liked Sephiroth nor understood why fans loved him so much because he didn't seem that interesting to me - he did instill fear though, but my interest in him was always very limited, which is bizarre considering that FFVII is one of my favourite games. I just loved the main cast and the story more, it didn't seem that the story wanted me to get attached to him.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I've never cared much either way about Sephiroth either, for me he's always been more of a plot device to keep the story moving. But I have read a lot of Sephiroth fanfic written by people for whom he is very significant, and for them, it's less about what he's been portrayed as in the various installments of the Compilation, and more about the potentialities and pathos inherent in his story, which their own imaginations can develop. What's it like to be a genetic experiment? What's it like to be a motherless child raised in a lab? What's it like to be brought up knowing your destiny is to become a killing machine for a corporation? What is it like to feel owned?

He's often portrayed in fan works as a lonely child prodigy with limited social skills and stunted emotional range who struggles to connect with people, but who puts up at least some resistance to his fate, and who has ocassional moments of kindness. A lot of people find such a character both pitiable and relateable.

Crisis Core explored these potentialities in his character to a limited extent, but they sloughed a lot off onto Angeal and Genesis.

 

[Roger]

I always thought it was great how Sephiroth went from raised as champion of Shinra against Wutai, to champion of the Ancient against humanity to champion of Jenova against everyone else on the Planet. Whatever information he gets, he always interpret it as him being even more awesome then before never learned how to be otherwise. As such, being thwarted by lowly Shinra MP Cloud is something he can't live down. There's a cause and effect to his character that goes beyond "experiments drove him crazy" like Kefka or just wanting power or being manipulated by a being that wants power.

But in any case, the new Sephiroth acknowledged Cloud killed him, acknowledges his strength and wants him to join his cause, remarks that seven seconds might well be enough for some of Cloud's skill to make a difference. Clearly familiarising himself with his own destiny has been theraputic for Sephiroth and It's led to a new chapter for Sephiroth's character altogether.

 

[Master Bates]

I am just so confused with the ending.

I was having such a great time with this game. I didn't mind the Arbiters of Fate too much until the last couple of chapters where I was just "WTF?! What game am I playing?" Then I just don't know what to make of it. I don't even think I understood about 50% of it. Will definitely be sure to read this thread.

I still like it, though, especially that this game feels like a new different game while still retaining parts of the original. The ending just kinda killed my vibe, but still excited for the next installment.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've never cared much either way about Sephiroth either, for me he's always been more of a plot device to keep the story moving. But I have read a lot of Sephiroth fanfic written by people for whom he is very significant, and for them, it's less about what he's been portrayed as in the various installments of the Compilation, and more about the potentialities and pathos inherent in his story, which their own imaginations can develop. What's it like to be a genetic experiment? What's it like to be a motherless child raised in a lab? What's it like to be brought up knowing your destiny is to become a killing machine for a corporation? What is it like to feel owned?

He's often portrayed in fan works as a lonely child prodigy with limited social skills and stunted emotional range who struggles to connect with people, but who puts up at least some resistance to his fate, and who has ocassional moments of kindness. A lot of people find such a character both pitiable and relateable.

Crisis Core explored these potentialities in his character to a limited extent, but they sloughed a lot off onto Angeal and Genesis.

For me, Crisis Core's greatest sin was the missed opportunity (twice over) to actually do something interesting with this premise. Instead, we got Genesis, who may have been an even bigger narcissist before learning of his origin than Sephiroth was after, and Suicidal Obi-Wan, who forced a lovely PTSD experience onto his protege.

Like, damn, can't somebody have a healthy response to this fairly irrelevant revelation?

But in any case, the new Sephiroth acknowledged Cloud killed him, acknowledges his strength and wants him to join his cause, remarks that seven seconds might well be enough for some of Cloud's skill to make a difference. Clearly familiarising himself with his own destiny has been theraputic for Sephiroth and It's led to a new chapter for Sephiroth's character altogether.

That's an interesting take! I'll be hoping you are right.

 

[oty]

we all know the only reason Seph appears so early (and in some cases even gratuitously) is his marketing appeal, otherwise he's just a stalking creep spouting cryptic lines about him being Cloud's everything (lol).

also they needed an excuse to reuse OWA.

Yeah, and that's not really the development's staff's fault too. "Higher-ups have their say and we just gotta obey". Companies, huh.

I think, and of course excluding the ending, it's completely reasonable what they did with Sephiroth in this game. I mean, even the ending is reasonable. But the rest is fairly standard even. A full game based on Midgar is the perfect place to introduce Cloud as the cool, but weird, protagonist who seems to have a strange connection to the, what is largely known by now, main villain of FFVII.

I played the original already knowing Seph was the big bad, and I think some weird crazy mindfuck scenes with him would make the experience even better. I loved every second of the Midgar portion, but there was still an expectancy. You know he is the main villain, so you kinda just wait for "the game" to know it.

Imo, they could have gone in a much more "subtle" way. The fact that in Chapter 2 he appeared giving a big ole speech was something that I thought a more subtle, even "Jaws like", approach would have been better but alas, I was not surprised.

 

[ForceStealer]

I liked when his appearances turned out to be one of the clones.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Besides the ending, I particullary liked Sephiroth's appearence right after the fall of Sector 7's plate, both the flashback and that brief talk with Cloud, with "Those Chosen By the Planet" kicking in really nicely.

 

[Jessie Rito]

That sequence of events sounds plausible, Roger, but how could Jessie have grown up with Biggs and Wedge since her family lived on the plate and they were in the slums? She probably never took an interest in the slums until after her dad's accident and her involvement with Avalanche. But I don't know for sure.

It is stated in the loading screens

 

[Jairus]

It is stated in the loading screens

Yeah, I saw that a while after I made that comment. I guess she must've gone down there a lot when she was growing up instead of staying up on the plate all the time. And speaking of Jessie, towards the end of Chapter 4, if you speak to her before leaving the bar for Reactor 5, she talks about being relegated to stagehand again and starting to think she'll never have a starring role. Cloud then encourages her by telling her there's always next time. I was just thinking about that exchange in light of the ending and her possible survival. What if that dialogue was SE's subtle way of telling us that Jessie will have a more prominent role in Part 2 and beyond? I think it's at least possible that it might be a hint in that direction.

That exchange between Cloud and Jessie might not have such an underlying meaning, but then again, it might. It's something to think about, at least. Cloud being encouraging is something we're not used to seeing very much yet at that point, and it surprises Jessie, so obviously we're meant to take notice of it. Maybe that's all the exchange was meant to be about, but maybe it wasn't. SE has used foreshadowing with her before, at least twice - the way her legs were pinned down in Chapter 1 hints at what happens to her in Chapter 12 when she's half-buried in rubble, and her flirty line about how if she couldn't walk that Cloud would be the first to know foreshadows that very thing with him carrying her into the bar in Chapter 4. So it's at least somewhat possible that SE may have been hinting at her continued involvement in the series with that exchange between her and Cloud before leaving for Reactor 5 when you look at it in terms of how the ending seems to have hinted at her survival.

 

[Makoeyes987]

lol No, he hasn't. The core of the character -- on a narrative, textual within-the-fiction basis -- is literally just hatred.

Moral ambiguity of actions or a portrayal based on reality aren't prerequisites for complexity. Hatred as a core emotional trait, is the foundation of a majority of supervillains. It's how they act and exhibit their personality that is indicative of whether they're simply a rampaging monster, or exhibiting a warped personality that has tangential connection to their humanity. In the end, vice and virtue are both products of the human condition, and regardless of Sephiroth's stated detachment from the human race, his values, goals, emotions, and expressions hint at far greater connection to his old life than he would admit. And the identifiable bond of hatred he shares with Cloud, especially as shown in AC and the Remake, speaks more to Sephiroth's humanity than inhumanity. Warped as that obsession may be. A psychological complex such as his, goes far beyond a simple ravenous hunger or urge for total destruction.

For me, Crisis Core's greatest sin was the missed opportunity (twice over) to actually do something interesting with this premise. Instead, we got Genesis, who may have been an even bigger narcissist before learning of his origin than Sephiroth was after, and Suicidal Obi-Wan, who forced a lovely PTSD experience onto his protege.

Like, damn, can't somebody have a healthy response to this fairly irrelevant revelation?

I'd say that the unifying trait all three SOLDIERs share is that upon that revelation, something within their personality breaks. Given what Jenova is and it's inherent destructive instincts, the outward manifestation of destructive tendencies seems to be intrinsic to those who are it's "children." It's like Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal all performed a schism with their old lives upon knowing the truth. And that schism sets them on a path of being a destructive enemy towards humanity. Angeal's is the least destructive however, because he maintains more of his core personality; he doesn't just go on a killing spree like the other two. But it is highly disturbed and ultimately destructive. He does mention to Zack how his mind is in a fog and unable to focus or think straight.

But in any case, the new Sephiroth acknowledged Cloud killed him, acknowledges his strength and wants him to join his cause, remarks that seven seconds might well be enough for some of Cloud's skill to make a difference. Clearly familiarising himself with his own destiny has been theraputic for Sephiroth and It's led to a new chapter for Sephiroth's character altogether.

What's funny about that is in the ending at The Edge of Creation, Sephiroth's Japanese manner of speech briefly goes back to his pre-Nibelheim insanity. He refers to himself as "ore" instead of the detached and vainglorious "watashi" that he picked upon being a villain. There definitely seems to be a some attitude change going on with him in the Remake. Whether it's a genuine overture to acknowledge Cloud as an equal, or an attempt to find an opening to exploit, remains to be seen.

 

[SpacemanZero]

I guess I'm back on the alternate timeline theory, and I won't probably get off that train anymore. This here is something that I think is a definitive proof that the ending with Biggs surviving and all that is in a alternative timeline. We don't even need the dog and golden shower anymore, but they do add to this.

Here's a screenshot from the ending:

https://imgur.com/kMWynOx

As you can see, sector 7 plate is still almost completely intact. What you're seeing on the left, is the sector 6 under construction. I guess in this timeline all of the moments where Whispers intervened were reversed/didn't happen. Avalanche managed the stop the bomb and there's only partial damage done the sector 7, like what we see when shit started to drop from the plate while we were doing rescues with Aerith during that mission, before the plate fell completely.

This is what it actually looks like after the plate fell: https://www.fr24news.com/a2/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/hbu3hhrooqskecvopl49.jpg

There's almost nothing standing between the reactors, it's very different from the ending shot. You can see sector 6 on the left side and sector 8 on the right side and sector 7 totally wrecked. There's nothing standing on the outer edge, unlike in the ending.

Here's also a shot of the 7th Heaven sign from the ending. It's in a similar condition as when you're doing rescues as Aerith and the plate has only partially fell:

https://imgur.com/eaPXmWj

The actual sign after the plate fell is way more wrecked, as we can see in chapter 13:

https://imgur.com/srJkdlv

And here's a picture of what you see when you look up in chapter 3, you see the sector 6 under construction on the left side and sector 7 on the right side, just like in the alternative timeline ending:

https://imgur.com/NL4Vj3L

The good news is, in the real timeline everything is pretty much as it should be. Bad news is, I guess they'll use that other timeline somehow. I hope that they'll just use it to show that a timeline where Zack lives, Aerith lives and all that, just leads to a situation where Sephiroth annihilates everything.