SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now I'm agreeing with all of Mako's posts? What even is this game anymore ...

What even is life ...

They already had a rendered model of a plate under construction - the same one that is being used for the skybox in-game. So they reused it for sector 7. The implication would be they are reconstructing sector 7. They are clearly in the sector 7 slums, the layout of all of that is the same as when you revisit it in chapter 13. Seventh Heaven bar is there and everything. What I got from that is they're rebuilding the slums, and the plate is being reconstructed as well, which is the reveal when they look up.

But the President is firm that they won't be reconstructing Sector 7.

 

[Jairus]

No, the point is depicting a separate universe/dimension/timeline, that has been created from the Arbiters of Fate going bye-bye. That entire sequence of events, if you look at the ending closely, shows specific scenes/areas that are impacted by the snow-like fragments of the Whispers. They aren't the same. Cloud and the others however, do not have that in their scenes.

The only time we see Cloud and the gang in the present day in the ending is outside of Midgar. So you can't say they aren't in the same altered timeline as the things that have been changed because they're not in the city at the time for us to know for sure. And there would be no point for an altered timeline to exist if the main crew weren't somehow a part of it and able to interact with it. Their journey will take place within the altered timeline, not the timeline of the OG.

Tres, SpaceMan's images clearly showed that in the altered timeline, the plate collapse was stopped. With the defeat of the Whispers, events and history changed all around Cloud and the gang just as Aerith said they would, and they now exist in an altered timeline where what the Whispers did and forced to happen was stopped and reversed - the plate collapse, the deaths of Zack and the trio, etc. All that has been undone with the defeat of the Whispers.

 

[Makoeyes987]

On one hand, I have Mako saying this timeline is shown to fill the player with gratification of knowing that their actions helped somebody, even if not in the main reality. On the other hand, I have you using it as set up for some horrible reveal where everyone dies because things don't go how they were supposed to. Which is it? Would they really have the ending of this game be so dedicated to showing that they don'r need to adhere to hw things originally happened, only to back track so hard on that later as to showcase an entire reality being destroyed where they were allowed more creative freedom? I'm getting mixed messages here.

Honestly, we don't know.

The joys of ambiguity

However, given the precognitive revelations and for-knowledge Aerith has displayed already, I don't think a window into another timeline would be necessary for her to be aware of her inevitable conclusion.

Especially in light of the special affection scene she gets if you focus Cloud's attention on her.

It's clearly already set up Aerith may carry a hint of awareness or unease regarding what may befall her.

So yeah, I certainly don't think it's necessary or likely they'd use an alternate timeline for more other than this. It'd be a ridiculously massive undertaking in terms of developing for two universes, let alone balancing showcasing what's going on where. But at this point, the unknown journey is literally that.

Unknown.

The only time we see Cloud and the gang in the present day in the ending is outside of Midgar. So you can't say they aren't in the same altered timeline as the things that have been changed because they're not in the city at the time for us to know for sure. And there would be no point for an altered timeline to exist if the main crew weren't somehow a part of it and able to interact with it. Their journey will take place within the altered timeline, not the timeline of the OG.

And outside of Midgar, Cloud and the others aren't shown with that golden snow from the Whispers. Just like Rufus Shinra and the others are shown in the normal, prime timeline of Midgar, where shit went down and his dad was killed. There's a clearly visual sign going on in the ending to differentiate what's going on in the primary timeline, and the newly created one. You look at the scenes with the golden snowfall. Those are the scenes happening outside of the primary FFVII timeline.

 

[Tetsujin]

Who's rebuilding the plate then? Shinra clearly wanted to leave it and focus on Neo-Midgar. So something doesn't add up. That's still a major change of continuity, on top of the other things.

It's almost like ThAt'S ThE PoInT~~~
It's almost like the entire ending was about making huge changes to the continuity we know and things are gonna be different going forward!

But sure, all these changes being self-contained to their own parallel universe that will leave the prime universe untouched and the core of FFVII unchanged seems like the more sensible option.

Also, would the assets from the game's engine be used for a CGI movie that's a cutscene?

It's the other way round. The background would be sourced from a highly detailed CG render of Midgar that is then made into a panoramic 2D image texture for the skybox.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Because while the plate was saved, Ody, damage still happened to Sector 7 before the battle with Reno and Rude. So some repair efforts are to be expected.

Mako, the whole point of the ending is to say that that hunt for Sephiroth isn't going to be the same this time. It takes place within the altered timeline where Sector 7 was saved and Zack, Jessie, and others are alive, not the one where things happened as in the OG. Zack and Cloud going to Midgar together happened in the past of that altered timeline, which is why Aerith seems to sense it, the change in what once was to what now is. The essence of the ending was to shatter the chain of events of the OG so the story and the hunt for Sephiroth are no longer bound by it.

This here is a very scary scenario when you just think about all the plot holes. Shouldn't Barret be dead now, if the timelines merged, because the Whispers brought him back to life and it seems that in the ending alternative timeline we see consequences of the moments were Whispers intervened and now they're undone. And if Zack is alive in the actual timeline, would Cloud even be there at the end, would any of them be there? Aerith wouldn't probably even have been captured. There's also very clear visual clues that separate our party from the alternative timeline.

I definitively think the timelines are separate. My head explodes if they're actually merged. The first boss in part two would have to be a giant manifestation of the 1000s of plot holes joined together fighting for their right to live in that world.

 

[Odysseus]

The only time we see Cloud and the gang in the present day in the ending is outside of Midgar. So you can't say they aren't in the same altered timeline as the things that have been changed because they're not in the city at the time for us to know for sure. And there would be no point for an altered timeline to exist if the main crew weren't somehow a part of it and able to interact with it. Their journey will take place within the altered timeline, not the timeline of the OG.

The issue with this is Zack. The story crumbles to its knees if he's not dead. Its not the level of paradox Mako is insisting it is since our party would still be from the original reality, not the new one, but then that would imply there's a second set of our main characters running around.

 

[SpacemanZero]

On one hand, I have Mako saying this timeline is shown to fill the player with gratification of knowing that their actions helped somebody, even if not in the main reality. On the other hand, I have you using it as set up for some horrible reveal where everyone dies because things don't go how they were supposed to. Which is it? Would they really have the ending of this game be so dedicated to showing that they don't need to adhere to how things originally happened, only to back track so hard on that later as to showcase an entire reality being destroyed where they were allowed more creative freedom? I'm getting mixed messages here.

That's because there's pretty clear proof of an alternative timeline, but nothing about what happens next. Both Mako and I are speculating about where things go from there and how they'll use the another timeline. That we won't probably won't know for a few years.

 

[Jairus]

The issue with this is Zack. The story crumbles to its knees if he's not dead. Its not the level of paradox Mako is insisting it is since our party would still be from the original reality, not the new one, but then that would imply there's a second set of our main characters running around.

You never know. SE may find another way to explain how things can still happen with him alive. Part 2 is already in development, so obviously they've got a plan. Also, FFXIII came out in 2009 while XIII-2 came out in 2011, two years later. So we'll probably get some word about FF7R-2 at some point next year.

 

[Odysseus]

I just think everyone is speaking incredibly definitively right now for something none of us know anything about.

I can't deny the evidence of the split timeline anymore, so that's the baseline "truth" I'll work with, but anything beyond that is just speculation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's almost like ThAt'S ThE PoInT~~~
It's almost like the entire ending was about making huge changes to the continuity we know and things are gonna be different going forward!

But sure, all these changes being self-contained to their own parallel universe that will leave the prime universe untouched and the core of FFVII unchanged seems like the more sensible option.

Then what you're saying is Cloud could functionally be his own grandpa at this point. Because if these changes exist within the same timeline, they're irreconcilable. Cloud cannot be FFVII Cloud Strife if Zack lived. Disregard the personality discrepancy, the fact Cloud's carrying Zack's sword on his back after supposedly the two of them made it to Midgar safely would just contort the chain of events to a state that simply cannot be hand-waved away. It's a raw paradox.

You never know. SE may find another way to explain how things can still happen with him alive.

Or, it's separate and not something that is completely contradictory with literally everything built around it.

Now I'm agreeing with all of Mako's posts? What even is this game anymore ...

What even is life ...

Sometimes life comes at ya fast

I can't deny the evidence of the split timeline anymore, so that's the baseline "truth" I'll work with, but anything beyond that is just speculation.

I mean, there are too many glaring differences to hand-wave away at this point. The chip bag seemed like a plausible nod to Zack's character and nickname, but no other chip-bag existing with another puppy on it was suspicious. Then Jessie's personal effects being on Bigg's desk was something anomalous but not completely out there.

But that plate discrepancy, coupled with the Seventh Heaven sign, AND the fact Zack is now walking away from what originally was Crisis Core's showcasing of his inevitable conclusion, creates a metaphorical Tetris playthrough where all the blocks are now overflowing at the top of the screen.

There's just no clearing the pieces away now without acknowledging what's in front of our faces.

 

[Jairus]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by defeating the Whispers, Cloud and the others altered reality around them such that the events the Whispers tried to interfere with and force were undone and their influence removed. I don't think they physically jumped to another FFVII world/timeline but rather changed their own existing timeline instead.

Mako, we haven't seen what happened after Zack and Cloud got to Midgar, so there could still be other ways for Cloud to get the sword. Allow for the unknown and stop limiting yourself to the OG canon. The point of the ending was, in part, to say that things will be different and diverge from that canon in ways you can't possibly imagine.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by defeating the Whispers, Cloud and the others altered reality around them such that the events the Whispers tried to interfere with and force were undone and their influence removed. I don't think they physically jumped to another FFVII world/timeline but rather changed their own existing timeline instead.

Sort of a "Crisis On Infinite Earths" result, yes? Also a possibility.

 

[Aphyo]

This here is a very scary scenario when you just think about all the plot holes. Shouldn't Barret be dead now, if the timelines merged, because the Whispers brought him back to life and it seems that in the ending alternative timeline we see consequences of the moments were Whispers intervened and now they're undone. And if Zack is alive in the actual timeline, would Cloud even be there at the end, would any of them be there? There's also very clear visual clues that separate our party from the alternative timeline.

Lets see. How the events could have played out with the whispers no longer existing...

Zack is alive. So thus, Zack replaces Cloud. Jesse goes on the second bombing run, so no Zack. What happens to Avalanche then since that was a trap. If they escape, no one falls in the church. So the Turks just take Aerith unless Zack is with Aerith already. Then that means Reno would be killed...

Ok this is an absolute cluster fuck if I ever saw one.

 

[Odysseus]

I doubt they'd go this far, but it is possible that the party changed the world around them without changing their own personal timelines. They'd basically be plopped into a new version of their own world, and with them leaving Midgar, never even realize anything had changed. There are no paradoxes involved that way.

I just know, in my own opinion that this new reality has to have some major relevance to the plot. I abjectly refuse to believe otherwise, it would be completely pointless to show all that, to include the scene with Biggs and the hint about Jessie, if it wasn't going anywhere. Square has made many a questionable decision in the past, but they aren't that stupid.

 

[Tetsujin]

Then what you're saying is Cloud could functionally be his own grandpa at this point. Because if these changes exist within the same timeline, they're irreconcilable. Cloud cannot be FFVII Cloud Strife if Zack lived. Disregard the personality discrepancy, the fact Cloud's carrying Zack's sword on his back after supposedly the two of them made it to Midgar safely would just contort the chain of events to a state that simply cannot be hand-waved away. It's a raw paradox.

I'm sure the writers can bullshit their way into making it happen. Not that I'd be a fan of it obviously but y'know.

Like, what's your point? Parallel timelines are somehow any less bullshit? All of this is some mental gymnastic backflipping bullshit, we're just arguing which one stinks the most at this point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by defeating the Whispers, Cloud and the others altered reality around them such that the events the Whispers tried to interfere with and force were undone and their influence removed. I don't think they physically jumped to another FFVII world/timeline but rather changed their own existing timeline instead.

Mako, we haven't seen what happened after Zack and Cloud got to Midgar, so there could still be other ways for Cloud to get the sword. Allow for the unknown and stop limiting yourself to the OG canon. The point of the ending was, in part, to say that things will be different and diverge from that canon in ways you can't possibly imagine.

That still doesn't explain the paradox, and now you're essentially speculating on unknowns of unknowns that are unknowable and without any tangible evidence or a hint of indication.

What we see is a clear delineation of two timelines. Split apart due to the destruction of the Arbiters of Fate.

What you're talking about is a raw, temporal paradox existing in one single timeline. If you go back in time within the current timeline you inhabit, and you kill your dad before you were born, then you erase yourself. Because you've destroyed the chain of events leading up to your birth.

Zack being alive undoes the events leading up to Cloud Strife being the Cloud of FFVII, period. And unless you're able to clearly showcase how such a raw contradiction is possible within the text, I don't see the point in arguing it's the same when the ending clearly demonstrates they're not the same timeline.

I doubt they'd go this far, but it is possible that the party changed the world around them without changing their own personal timelines. They'd basically be plopped into a new version of their own world, and with them leaving Midgar, never even realize anything had changed. There are no paradoxes involved that way.

I just know, in my own opinion that this new reality has to have some major relevance to the plot. I abjectly refuse to believe otherwise, it would be completely pointless to show all that, to include the scene with Biggs and the hint about Jessie, if it wasn't going anywhere. Square has made many a questionable decision in the past, but they aren't that stupid.

There's absolutely no way they would be able to undertake FFVII without bumping into the paradoxical consequences of them being in a radically different world that's a raw paradox.

Think about what would spin off from that conclusion. It should be obvious on it's face.

I'm sure the writers can bullshit their way into making it happen. Not that I'd be a fan of it obviously but y'know.

Like, what's your point? Parallel timelines are somehow any less bullshit? All of this is some mental gymnastic backflipping bullshit, we're just arguing which one stinks the most at this point.

That's like trying to balance an elephant on the head of a pin. I'm sure through some theoretical, and experimental physics it could potentially happen but on it's surface it does not lend itself to reconciliation, at all. They're diametrically are opposed.

And there is a huge difference; one is contained to the ending and showcasing the reconciled plot-line that was introduced for Part 1. The other is a continuous narrative that ends up being the entirety of the plot. Those are very different outcomes.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Think about what would spin off from that conclusion. It should be obvious on it's face.

Seph chuckling at their obvious distress a whole lot?

 

[Odysseus]

Yes finally I can get into my very own quote battle

There's absolutely no way they would be able to undertake FFVII without bumping into the paradoxical consequences of them being in a radically different world that's a raw paradox.

Think about what would spin off from that conclusion. It should be obvious on it's face.

Its like Tres said, its basically like what happens in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The whole world is altered, but some of the characters carry over from the old one. Part of the plot of part 2 could actually be the characters slowly realizing that things aren't quite right, culminating with them meeting Biggs or whoever and having a "Didn't you die?" moment, where they then find out the full ramifications of their own actions. Would there be another group of the same characters running around? Logically, yes, but maybe our main cast just replaced their alternate reality selves. Even if Zack being alive would screw with Cloud's history, that wouldn't matter because "our" Cloud isn't the one from the new world. He just replaced him.

I'm not saying any of this is right, for the record, just a possibility.

 

[Tetsujin]

That's like trying to balance an elephant on the head of a pin. I'm sure through some theoretical, and experimental physics it could potentially happen but on it's surface it does not lend itself to reconciliation, at all. They're diametrically are opposed.

Ah yes, so let's say Zack and Cloud reaches Midgar, and let's say, something happens to Zack that forces him to separate from Cloud but he still manages to keep Cloud hidden and leave his Buster Sword to keep Cloud safe and whatever - that's the explanation that requires experimental physics...

...as opposed to the one with parallel timelines...

...hmmm.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes finally I can get into my very own quote battle

Its like Tres said, its basically like what happens in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The whole world is altered, but some of the characters carry over from the old one. Part of the plot of part 2 could actually be the characters slowly realizing that things aren't quite right, culminating with them meeting Biggs or whoever and having a "Didn't you die?" moment, where they then find out the full ramifications of their own actions. Would there be another group of the same characters running around? Logically, yes, but maybe our main cast just replaced their alternate reality selves. Even if Zack being alive would screw with Cloud's history, that wouldn't matter because "our" Cloud isn't the one from the new world. He just replaced him.

I'm not saying any of this is right, for the record, just a possibility.

What occurred with Crisis on Infinite Earths was so uniquely convoluted, confusing and contradictory within it's own framework that using that as an example is the equivalent of relegating the task to a mysterious black box. "It just is" is not a functional or helpful answer in sussing out something, lol

that premise also collapses on itself in the first place. Why would the ending make a point at delineating the separate nature of these events being undone by the Whispers, from the events that presumably take place within the current timeline? We see the normal ramifications of Rufus taking power and the continued fallout of what happened before... And then cut away to the happy alternate universe with the golden snow denoting changes that are a happy-ending thanks to the Whispers being gone.

And if the Whispers and their changes to the timeline are all gone Barret would be dead too.

Ah yes, so let's say Zack and Cloud reaches Midgar, and let's say, something happens to Zack that forces him to separate from Cloud but he still manages to keep Cloud hidden and leave his Buster Sword to keep Cloud safe and whatever - that's the explanation that requires experimental physics...

...as opposed to the one with parallel timelines...

...hmmm.

You made that up, that's not shown or hinted at, at all. I could easily refute that leap to conclusions by simply pointing out Zack would never abandon his sword unless it was pried from his cold dead hands, or given away by choice. That's not an answer.

An ending showing clear differences that match what happens if the Arbiters of Fate were unable to correct what had occurred within the Remake, is a very clear cut answer.

Again. Why is Barret walking around alive then if this is all the same timeline? You can't have it both ways and leave it as inconsistent within itself.

 

[Theozilla]

It is stated in the loading screens

Out of curiosity do you have a screen capture of said loading screen?

 

[Odysseus]

What occurred with Crisis on Infinite Earths was so uniquely convoluted, confusing and contradictory within it's own framework that using that as an example is the equivalent of relegating the task to a mysterious black box. "It just is" is not a functional or helpful answer in sussing out something, lol

that premise also collapses on itself in the first place. Why would the ending make a point at delineating the separate nature of these events being undone by the Whispers, from the events that presumably take place within the current timeline?

If the Whispers and their changes to the timeline are gone Barret would be dead too.

Okay I could make a better parallel to what I'm talking about with Homestuck, but I didn't want to prod that sleeping bear. Everything that the whispers did wasn't undone, not in the world our characters came from, but that doesn't matter because this new universe isn't that world. Barret not being dead isn't a contradiction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay I could make a better parallel to what I'm talking about with Homestuck, but I didn't want to prod that sleeping bear. Everything that the whispers did wasn't undone, not in the world our characters came from, but that doesn't matter because this new universe isn't that world. Barret not being dead isn't a contradiction.

Okay so now we're just arbitrarily picking and choosing what was changed and left unchanged

That's a completely arbitrary contradiction because when the Whispers were destroyed, their changes were all unmade. That's the premise. But now they're not all unmade within the singular timeline because that would cause the theory to fall apart, since Barret's shown walking around alive with the other party?

Come on.

Let's follow the evidence and it's consistency here.

 

[Odysseus]

Okay so now we're just arbitrarily picking and choosing what was changed and left unchanged

That's a completely arbitrary contradiction because when the Whispers were destroyed, their changes were all unmade. That's the premise. But now they're not all unmade within the singular timeline because that would cause the theory to fall apart, since Barret's shown walking around alive with the other party?

Come on.

Let's follow the evidence and it's consistency here.

Its not arbitrary though. In this hypothetical I'm making here, everything was changed except for our main characters. Their personal timelines are at odds with the new world around them because they're not from that world. they had a hand in reforming the place, so they were left unaffected. Basically, everything but the main party will be as if the Whispers never existed. The party was a carry over.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Its not arbitrary though. In this hypothetical I'm making here, everything was changed except for our main characters. Their personal timelines are at odds with the new world around them because they're not from that world. they had a hand in reforming the place, so they were left unaffected. Basically, everything but the main party will be as if the Whispers never existed. The party was a carry over.

The hypothetical contradicts the agreed upon, and consistent premise that spawned it.

The consequence of the Arbiters of Fate being destroyed in the ending, was that their changes were undone. Where are you getting the idea that it would have an exception on Barret, except for the expressed purpose of protecting the theory that it's all a unified timeline and not a split timeline?

Barret died. He was shown to have been killed by Sephiroth if not for the intervention of the Arbiters of Fate.

So where are you getting this evidence of "personal timelines?" Why would the main characters be exempt from the changes? What evidence within the story exists for that? Why would they be a carry over? You're creating more questions now than answers. Because nothing exists within the text to support those leaps in conclusion.

What we see are two divergent portrayals of events, that exist in one continuity of events that contradict what's in-game, versus the events that do not. We essentially see two timelines. That's simply what's shown and anything trying to inject paradoxical elements within the story is really not necessary or supported by the evidence.