SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Wol]

Y'all just got Nomura'd.

You can't make sense of what's devoid of sense, if you could that would be the paradox.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But the President is firm that they won't be reconstructing Sector 7.

But the President is dead, and Rufus might be taking the company in a new direction.

 

[ForceStealer]

Unless he isn't dead anymore

 

[Odysseus]

The hypothetical contradicts the agreed upon, and consistent premise that spawned it.

The consequence of the Arbiters of Fate being destroyed in the ending, was that their changes were undone. Where are you getting the idea that it would have an exception on Barret, except for the expressed purpose of protecting the theory that it's all a unified timeline and not a split timeline?

Where are you getting this evidence of "personal timelines" and a "new world" except for added evidence to buttress the theory that there isn't a split? Nothing exists within the text to support that.

There's no evidence of such elements except the explanation to refute the possibility of a split timeline. What we see are two divergent portrayals of events, that exist in one continuity of events that contradict what's in-game, versus the events that do not. That's not a solid argument in support of there being anything but a spun off timeline unless you try to somehow inject paradoxical elements within the story.

I feel like I should say that I actually agree that there probably is a split timeline, as I said:

I doubt they'd go this far, but it is possible that the party changed the world around them without changing their own personal timelines.

I'm just not going to say the split option is the only option. Because you don't know, and I don't know. Might as well see how well arguing the alternatives go.

The evidence is that, under the assumption that its all one timeline, Barret still isn't dead, and everyone clearly remembers the version of events that the players experienced, therefore, with it presented that aspects of the rest of the world have been altered, the main characters must have been carried over and been spared the effects of the whisper's destruction. Why would this be? Perhaps because they themselves were the cause of the original timeline's unmaking. They were there in the metaphysical space where it all went down, so it didn't effect their own personal timelines. No paradoxes involved.

Y'all just got Nomura'd.

You can't make sense of what's devoid of sense, if you could that would be the paradox.

In this case I think we actually got Nojima'd, but yeeeeaaah.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But the President is dead, and Rufus might be taking the company in a new direction.

The president may be wearing purple underwear, however we don't know and that's just raw speculation that's unsupported by anything at this point

I feel like I should say that I actually agree that there probably is a split timeline, as I said:



I'm just not going to say the split option is the only option. Because you don't know, and I don't know. Might as well see how well arguing the alternatives go.

The evidence is that, under the assumption that its all one timeline, Barret still isn't dead, and everyone clearly remembers the version of events that the players experienced, therefore, with it presented that aspects of the rest of the world have been altered, the main characters must have been carried over and been spared the effects of the whisper's destruction. Why would this be? Perhaps because they themselves were the cause of the original timeline's unmaking. They were there in the metaphysical space where it all went down, so it didn't effect their own personal timelines. No paradoxes involved.

It's the only option that stays consistent with what's outlined in the story, though. If you agree with it, why inject assumptions then?

All I'm doing is I'm simply pointing out how that assumption is incompatible with itself. It's stacking paradoxes on paradoxes now, instead of simply going by the direct conclusion of observing a separate timeline.

What that assumption proposes are a handful of outside suppositions that contort the nature of the ending's presentation in such a way that it injects paradoxical inconsistencies to the resolution. Why would it do that? Why add extraneous explanations to prop up a theory that adds more questionable, confusing and contradictory elements to itself?

No immunity or separateness to the effects of the Whisper's destruction are implied within the ending or the game. Aerith warns that they could potentially change themselves, before entering the Singularity. Why would Biggs and Jessie even still be alive if people were immune to the undoing of the Whispers events? Why would Barret be immune to the undoing of the Whispers' events, but everyone else who's been allowed to live is not? How does that even make sense?

 

[Odysseus]

The president may be wearing purple underwear, however we don't know and that's just raw speculation that's unsupported by anything at this point



Well I'm just simply explaining how that assumption is incompatible with itself. It's stacking paradoxes on paradoxes now, instead of simply going by the direct conclusion of observing a separate timeline.

What that assumption proposes are a handful of outside suppositions that contort the nature of the ending's presentation in such a way that it injects paradoxical inconsistencies to the resolution. Why would it do that? Why add extraneous explanations to prop up a theory that adds more questionable, confusing and contradictory elements to itself?

No immunity or separateness to the effects of the Whisper's destruction are implied through this. Why would Biggs and Jessie even still be alive if people were immune to the undoing of the Whispers events?

It just doesn't make sense.

Its not everyone that would be immune, just the five people (+Sephiroth too I guess) who were there to make it all happen. Biggs and Jessie wouldn't be effected because they weren't there. I also don't see where this theory has contradictions, the internal logic is all sound, it just requires far more assumptions that the split timeline theory does (starting to sound like Zelda up in here.) I really don't think this is anymore confusing than the alternative. Maybe I've had my head buried in too many other stories that involve this level of timeline fuckery. All of this is a load of crock as far as the original game is concerned anyway.

Here's one for you: Those three whisper warriors that fight you are all stated to be there to "protect the future that made them." Why would they need to do that if muliple timelines are in play? Surely their future would also come into being regardless.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Its not everyone that would be immune, just the five people (+Sephiroth too I guess) who were there to make it all happen. Biggs and Jessie wouldn't be effected because they weren't there. I also don't see where this theory has contradictions, the internal logic is all sound, it just requires far more assumptions that the split timeline theory does (starting to sound like Zelda up in here.) I really don't think this is anymore confusing than the alternative. Maybe I've had my head buried in too many other stories that involve this level of timeline fuckery. All of this is a load of crock as far as the original game is concerned anyway.

Here's one for you: Those three whisper warriors that fight you are all stated to be there to "protect the future that made them." Why would they need to do that if muliple timelines are in play? Surely their future would also come into being regardless.

Aerith specificallys says they wouldn't be immune. She literally warns them before entering what they do now could all change them fundamentally, and going by the ending, she's right.

Why would the Whispers being destroyed and undoing all their changes and influences specifically leave them unscathed, when Aerith warns the exact opposite would happen, and nothing in the ending or game implies people themselves are immune to their changes? Especially when it shows the opposite.

Mo' assumptions, mo' problems!

Whisper Rubrum, Viridi, and Corceo are meant to protect the planetary destiny that created them, which is what Whispers are meant to functionally do. The presumed planet's future they come wishes for things to remain on it's path. And now it doesn't matter because Cloud and the others summarily annihilated them. That's a mystery that's still in need of elucidating.

 

[Odysseus]

Aerith specificallys says they wouldn't be immune. She literally warns them before entering what they do now could all change them fundamentally, and going by the ending, she's right.

Why would the Whispers being destroyed and undoing all their changes and influences specifically leave them unscathed, when Aerith warns the exact opposite would happen, and nothing in the ending or game implies people themselves are immune to their changes? Especially when it shows the opposite.

Mo' assumptions, mo' problems!

Whisper Rubrum, Viridi, and Corceo are meant to protect the planetary destiny that created them, which is what Whispers are meant to functionally do. The presumed planet's future they come wishes for things to remain on it's path. And now it doesn't matter because Cloud and the others summarily annihilated them. That's a mystery that's still in need of elucidating.

How are they more fundamentally changed in the split option versus the single option? I figured what she meant by that is that, in destroying the whispers, they open up their future to possibilities that otherwise wouldn't come to be. This is still true in either case. Its not like they were changed physically or mentally afterwards anyway.

Definitely agree about the assumptions though. Occam's razor and all that.

If the future they came from ceased to be, then they never should have existed to be there in the first place. That's a paradox.

It also just occurred to me, aren't there now countless alternate timelines now that the whispers have been killed? Why would there only be one for Zack's death not happening, and one for the present moment? There should conceivably be a new timeline for every single instance they appeared and effected events. You might not be dealing with two Sephiroths, you could be dealing with an infinite number of them.

 

[Theozilla]

Hmmmm, while I can admit that these observations definitely give more credence to the "ending sequence is an alternate timeline where the sector 7 plate never fell" theory, I feel like these could also just as likely (if not more so) be explained by as just goofs on the animators' part, where they simply used the wrong damaged Seventh Heaven sign asset and forgot to erase/remove the Sector 7 plate for that perspective shot.
Especially since the Remake has already made comparable geographical goofs prior, such as the Sector 5 slums (including Aerith's Church) being visibly underneath the Sector 6 plate by mistake and/or when you're in Wall Market (or the Sector 6 playground) the Sector 6 support pillar is nowhere to be seen, despite being visible from a distance when you're in the other areas of the game.

So whether these are intentional or are animation/rendering goofs remains to be seen for me personally still.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How are they more fundamentally changed in the split option versus the single option? I figured what she meant by that is that, in destroying the whispers, they open up their future to possibilities that otherwise wouldn't come to be. This is still true in either case. Its not like they were changed physically or mentally afterwards anyway.

Aerith was correct in that they were fundamentally changed, however that change errupted in creating a split timeline that realized said changes in a different timeline. The changes exist, however they are delineated by two separate depictions.

She didn't just say they would open future possibilities, she specifically states they'd be changing who they are.

If the future they came from ceased to be, then they never should have existed to be there in the first place. That's a paradox.

It's not a causal paradox, it's a question on the fundamental nature of time travel itself. If time travel exists, then is it pre-destined to exist in the first place? Does that mean it's already happened and we're existing in the results of said time travel right now? These type of questions emerge when reconciling time travel with the prospects of predetermination, and predestination. If one is to assume that time can be rewritten and changed, then no. It's not paradoxical for the Whispers to exist and summarily be made to unexist, because the rules governing time travel dictate that time is not immutable. The very existence and necessary presence of the Whispers prove it.

It also just occurred to me, aren't there now countless alternate timelines now that the whispers have been killed? Why would there only be one for Zack's death not happening, and one for the present moment? There should conceivably be a new timeline for every single instance they appeared and effected events. You mkight not be dealing with two Sephiroths, you could be dealing with an infinite number of them.

There could be now countless alternate timelines. In Dragonball, every single time Trunks or someone did raw, uncontrolled time travel within the mortal realm, a time ring was created for that new separate universe. It's a conundrum that creates numerous extent universes that are now potentially out there with unknown outcomes and consequences.

It's why I said there are thoughts better left unsaid for those possibilities. Because if a Sephiroth were to become aware of such potential...

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Hmmmm, while I can admit that these observations definitely give more credence to the "ending sequence is an alternate timeline where the sector 7 plate never fell" theory, I feel like these could also be just as likely (if not more so) explained by as just goofs on the animators' part, where they simply used the wrong damaged Seventh Heaven sign and forgot to erase/remove the Sector 7 plate for that perspective shot.
Especially since the Remake has already made comparable geographical goofs prior, such as the Sector 5 slums (including Aerith's Church) being visibly underneath the Sector 6 plate by mistake and/or when you're in Wall Market (or the Sector 6 playground) the Sector 6 support pillar is nowhere to be seen, despite being visible from a distance when you're in the other areas of the game.

So whether these are intentional or are animation/rendering goofs remains to be seen for me personally still.

If all the inconsistencies we've seen so far in this ending are mere goofs...

Then they need to get this guy back where he belongs and away from the animation studio. He's breaking everything

 

[Jessie Rito]

Out of curiosity do you have a screen capture of said loading screen?

 

[Odysseus]

She didn't just say they would open future possibilities, she specifically states they'd be changing who they are.

I feel like this is true regardless of which theory you argue.

It's not a causal paradox, it's a question on the fundamental nature of time travel itself. If time travel exists, then is it pre-destined to exist in the first place? Does that mean it's already happened and we're existing in the results of said time travel right now? These type of questions emerge when reconciling time travel with the prospects of predetermination, and predestination. If one is to assume that time can be rewritten and changed, then no. It's not paradoxical for the Whispers to exist and summarily be made to unexist, because the rules governing time travel dictate that time is not immutable. The very existence and necessary presence of the Whispers prove it.

In this case it might not even be referring to time travel, actually. The whispers have their pre-determined future, this is the future those whispers were made to defend. I dunno.

It's why I said there are thoughts better left unsaid for those possibilities. Because if a Sephiroth were to become aware of such potential...

EDIT: And the contradictions are: Sector 7 under sector 6's plate, a sign that isn't quite broken the right way, and...?

 

[Theozilla]

Thanks, neat factoid!


Also after taking a second look at the Seventh Heaven sign, I am now rechanging my argument/position. The sign in the ending sequence and the sign when viewed in Chapter 13 actually are the same damaged sign (see my mark ups below), it was just the angle and background that they were seen against that made them look slightly different. So I definitely think now the Sector 7 plate in the ending sequence was just an animator goof.

 

[Odysseus]

Theo you're my hero

 

[SpacemanZero]

So they accidentally changed the breed of the dog and made the camera linger on that shot, accidentally put golden dust rain that started from the singularity closing/Whispers dying on top of every scene that seems "off" and accidentally fucked up by leaving an intact sector 7 plate in the skybox and accidentally used the wrong 7th Heaven sign in the ending? It just... starts to add up more to the other conclusion.

 

[oty]

Oh god....what the hell is going on....?

It's like every time a theory shows up, another one even crazier and just as possible also appears. I want that Ultimania just as much as I wanted the freaking game as of now.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I feel like this is true regardless of which theory you argue.

If a unified timeline is created where Cloud simultaneously stays the same with Zack surviving the entirety of their escape, and Barret remaining alive after all events, including his resurrection by the Whispers are undone, then really, no it's not. Aerith simply was wrong and said what she said for nothing

In this case it might not even be referring to time travel, actually. The whispers have their pre-determined future, this is the future those whispers were made to defend. I dunno.

The Whispers are said to come from the future though.

@Theozilla

If that's the case, then they need to fire the person in charge of animation and continuity consistency because they dropped the ball hard.

The totality of these inconsistencies including a huge plate existing where it should not, lend one to believe they're intentional at this point. These are pretty grievous errors.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why would the Whispers being destroyed and undoing all their changes and influences specifically leave them unscathed ...

Going back to DC's "Crisis On Infinite Earths," that's what happened with the folks present at the beginning of time when The Spectre fought The Anti-Monitor and the history of five universes got rolled into one. Similar situation with Marvel heroes and villains after 2015's "Secret Wars."

In "Star Trek: First Contact," the crew of the Enterprise-E were protected from the Borg rewriting history because they followed them through the same time vortex.

All of which is to say, they could use any number of things as explanations for that purpose if that's the reeult they want. The singularity is just asking to be used for that.

 

[Odysseus]

So they accidentally changed the breed of the dog and made the camera linger on that shot, accidentally put golden dust rain that started from the singularity closing/Whispers dying on top of every scene that seems "off" and accidentally fucked up by leaving an intact sector 7 plate in the skybox and accidentally used the wrong 7th Heaven sign in the ending? It just... starts to add up more to the other conclusion.

You aren't addressing the fact that Sector 7 itself isn't even under that sector 7 plate you're using as evidence. Theo jut showed that the sign might not even be different. Now its back to the Zack scene.

 

[Wol]

well, considering there's solid evidence that the last chapter was rushed by X, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply didn't bother to remove the plate.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Thanks, neat factoid!


Also after taking a second look at the Seventh Heaven sign, I am now changing my argument. The sign in the ending sequence and the sign when viewed in Chapter 13 actually are the same damaged sign (see my mark ups below), it was just the angle and background that they were seen against that made them look slightly different. So I definitely think now the Sector 7 plate was just animator goof.
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View attachment 5573

Look at that picture. It's not the same sign. There's a lot more of the E letter on the upper picture intact. Hell, in fact, the letters are very different. Look at first E on Seventh. It's a lot more bolder than on the lower picture. On the lower picture it's missing a lot of the paint. On the upper picture, there's a small part of V left, but not any on the lower picture, and the list goes on. There's actually much more empty space on the left side of the letters on the other sign and the letters are aligned differently.

 

[SpacemanZero]

You aren't addressing the fact that Sector 7 itself isn't even under that sector 7 plate you're using as evidence. Theo jut showed that the sign might not even be different. Now its back to the Zack scene.

You should go play chapter 3 again and look at the sky. We really aren't under sector 7 plate all the time, but under sector 6 also. It doesn't take anything away from that evidence, in fact, it makes it stronger.

 

[Theozilla]

So they accidentally changed the breed of the dog and made the camera linger on that shot, accidentally put golden dust rain that started from the singularity closing/Whispers dying on top of every scene that seems "off" and accidentally fucked up by leaving an intact sector 7 plate in the skybox and accidentally used the wrong 7th Heaven sign in the ending? It just... starts to add up more to the other conclusion.

The Stamp dog breed is an entirely different discussion.
And I also just provided my evidence that the damaged 7th Heaven signs in Chapter 13 and Chapter 18's ending sequence aren't any different, they just are viewed from different angles/backgrounds.
As for accidentally leaving in the Sector 7 plate untouched, yeah I can believe such an egregious error occurred when comparable ones like the Sector 5 slums being under the Sector 6 plate occurred in the Remake.

Look at that picture. It's not the same sign. There's a lot more of the E letter on the upper picture intact. Hell, in fact, the letters are very different. Look at first E on Seventh. It's a lot more bolder than on the lower picture. On the lower picture it's missing a lot of the paint. On the upper picture, there's a small part of V left, but not any on the lower picture, and the list goes on.

The broken cracks/missing pieces are identical in both pictures, the angles make them look slightly different. And the V is present in the Chapter 13 version as well. The Chapter 13 letters really aren't much different looking than the Chapter 18 ones, the former are a little more smudged than the latter, but that is easily due to how the different scenes render out the same asset slightly differently due to the different lighting and filters going on in them.

@Theozilla

If that's the case, then they need to fire the person in charge of animation and continuity consistency because they dropped the ball hard.

The totality of these inconsistencies including a huge plate existing where it should not, lend one to believe they're intentional at this point. These are pretty grievous errors.

Mako they already messed up with the Sector 5 slums, so I definitely can believe they messed up elsewhere.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Going back to DC's "Crisis On Infinite Earths," that's what happened with the folks present at the beginning of time when The Spectre fought The Anti-Monitor and the history of five universes got rolled into one. Similar situation with Marvel heroes and villains after 2015's "Secret Wars."

In "Star Trek: First Contact," the crew of the Enterprise-E were protected from the Borg rewriting history because they followed them through the same time vortex.

All of which is to say, they could use any number of things as explanations for that purpose if that's the reeult they want. The singularity is just asking to be used for that.

We can't use other media's rules for Time Travel to explain another series' showcasing of it. That's not logical or consistent. We might as well arbitrarily use other rules to explain elements we don't understand as well. Aerith specifically states that the potential consequence of going into the Singularity and opposing what's inside could change who they were. We see that consequence play out with folks getting rezzed thanks to the changes of the Whispers being undone. That's the premise outlined by the story, not some hiterto unknown paradoxical/temporal shield that insulates certain people from changes that happen within the story's timestream. You can't have it both ways. That's simply not shown within the text.

Yes, the writers could do anything. They could swallow up the entirety of FFVII's universe in a black hole fueled by the temporal shenanigans they've started. Why discuss hypotheticals when the certainty of evidence that exists is fertile enough ground, as is?

 

[Lex]

Guys I don't understand this theory about the plates. I think they've clearly used sector 6's assets to represent sector 7's broken plate, but even if they hadn't, the reason the other one is intact in the ending is because it's sector 8's plate, not sector 6's.

To simplify:

The neighbouring plate you see when you're looking AT Seventh Heaven is Sector 8
The neighbouring plate you see when you're looking AWAY from Seventh Heaven is Sector 6

^that's the case at all times both in the original and in the remake

You never see sector 6 (while in sector 7) during the ending. The camera doesn't look in that direction.

FWIW I believe the AU stuff is real, but the Sector 7 plate collapsed in any version of events.