SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Tetsujin]

We don't even need the dog and golden shower anymore

 

[SpacemanZero]

Whoopsie!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Huh.

So the ending is showcasing a different world?

So they're using Dragonball time travel physics? Huh... Okay.

I appreciate the subtlety and low-key way of disclosing such a massive, universe-bending development. They did.. A lot of things with that part of the ending, I gotta say. I wouldn't call them amazing things but.... They did things. Things happened.

Wow. But why does this alternate timeline even matter? The main cast is separate from it, and those people in the other universe are not the same people. I guess we have a prime universe and a beta-universe in FFVII now. That's... A thing now.

 

[Jairus]

Are we sure they're separate, though? Aerith said that they themselves would be changed as well if they won. So I think they're a part of this new timeline as well. In any case, it seems to me that, through the ending, SE might saying to the vets something like,

"This is the story of Final Fantasy VII as you've always known it and it'll go just the way you think it will..."

 

[Tetsujin]

A more grounded take on that:

The Sector 7 plate is being rebuilt and they just recycled the Sector 6 plate asset for it.

 

[Odysseus]

Why is the sector 7 slums under the sector 6 plate then?

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're separate.

Unless we suddenly get Goddess Etro plopping down Time Gates and a Historia Crux next game, these changes are complete time paradoxes that cannot be reconciled with the current state of the world that exists. Not to mention what it would do to the main characters.

It seems clear from watching the ending and it's showcasing that we're seeing an alternate world where things have changed for the better thanks to their efforts.

A more grounded take on that:

The Sector 7 plate is being rebuilt and they just recycled the Sector 6 plate asset for it.

That'd still not make much sense and be a change since Sector 7 was never rebuilt. They left that rubble and destruction just stay as is.

Looking at it with my two eyes, the unfinished plate above them looks almost identical to what Sector 6 looked like.

Why is the sector 7 slums under the sector 6 plate then?

I dunno, but it matches the appearance of Sector 6's unfinished plate.

Didn't the refugees from Sector 7 that escaped during the Pillar assault run to Sector 6? Maybe Sector 7 residents are scavenging materials and scrap from Sector 6 to help rebuild what was destroyed in Sector 7.

 

[Odysseus]

I guess I'll just echo your own sentiment then, Mako. If there is an alternate reality, why does it matter? Outside of some subtle differences, it doesn't seem all that different from the main timeline. Is part 2 going to feature dimension hopping? Did Marlene reach across the multiverse to have that moment with Barret?

 

[Jairus]

The OG timeline is separate, yes, but the remake isn't going to follow that timeline or sequence of events - the ending made that quite clear. Cloud and crew's journey in the remake is based on the remake's timeline and altered events, not the ones the Whispers tried to force and which were ultimately undone with their defeat as has just been clearly shown with the images that SpaceMan posted of Sector 7 and the plate and how it's not collapsed now but that it was stopped.

 

[Aphyo]

Isn't it possible that this is just Square Enix getting caught re-purposing art assets? Regarding the possibility of this being intentional, it could play into Zack not being dead.

 

[Tetsujin]

That'd still not make much sense and be a change since Sector 7 was never rebuilt. They left that rubble and destruction just stay as is.

Looking at it with my two eyes, the unfinished plate above them looks almost identical to what Sector 6 looked like.

Not make sense how? Less sense than alternate timelines and universes?

Yes it's identical to sector 6 - again, because I assume they just recycled the sector 6 asset to showcase the sector 7 plate being under re-construction. And yes of course it's a change. That's the whole point of the ending isn't it?

Shit's weird in Midgar anyway. You're also under sector 6 when you're in sector 5, the massive rubble from sector 7 just isn't there when you're in the slums etc.
...actually, maybe we've already been hopping between parallel universes in the game and that's how all these inconsistencies come about.

 

[Odysseus]

Yeah they might have just reused sector 6's skybox to represent the collapsed plate, seeing as it would have been a lot of work to make an all new one for a 5 second scene. No exlanation for the sign though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess I'll just echo your own sentiment then, Mako. If there is an alternate reality, why does it matter? Outside of some subtle differences, it doesn't seem all that different from the main timeline. Is part 2 going to feature dimension hopping? Did Marlene reach across the multiverse to have that moment with Barret?

I certainly don't see the point in dimension hopping. Those individuals in the beta universe aren't the same people. They're alternate-versions, and that's not the same thing. For Cloud and the others, the people who died, are dead. I mean, it's cool there's a universe out there where Zack lived, Biggs lived, Jessie probably lived, and things didn't turn out so badly thanks Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret and Red XIII taking a hammer to the planet's time system and smashing it to pieces

I mean, I love Zack and it's cool to see him alive. But I already saw him alive back in 2010 in Birth By Sleep, it seems superfluous. Then again Zack in BBS ends up being whisked away by Sephiroth and is probably dead there too now but whatever.

It's a very interesting and strange development. I see this development being kept in the writer's back pockets for the future when they inevitably wish to do what-if scenarios that go contrary to the main continuity/plot of FFVII.

The OG timeline is separate, yes, but the remake isn't going to follow that timeline or sequence of events - the ending made that quite clear. Cloud and crew's journey in the remake is based on the remake's timeline and altered events, not the ones the Whispers tried to force and which were ultimately undone with their defeat as has just been clearly shown with the images that were posted of Sector 7 and the plate and how it's not collapsed now but that it was stopped.

It's not about the OG, you see Cloud and Aerith walk past the alt-universe versions of Cloud and Zack, walking towards Midgar. They're separated by time, and now presumably dimensions. They exist separately now. All those instances with the golden snow that resulted in the Whispers being blown apart, functionally serves to distinguish the other universe that was saved/created by Cloud and his crew's efforts.

Not make sense how? Less sense than alternate timelines and universes?

Yes it's identical to sector 6 - again, because I assume they just recycled the sector 6 asset to showcase the sector 7 plate being under re-construction. And yes of course it's a change. That's the whole point of the ending isn't it?

Shit's weird in Midgar anyway. You're also under sector 6 when you're in sector 5, the massive rubble from sector 7 just isn't there when you're in the slums etc.
...actually, maybe we've already been hopping between parallel universes in the game and that's how all these inconsistencies come about.

It's a CGI cutscene, isn't it? That's not in-game footage, they would have to purposefully have rendered a CGI cutscene and confusedly make their sky model an almost exact match of Sector 6, when it's supposed to be Sector 7. Given the fact Sector 7's sky would be bare thanks to the plate mostly being destroyed, it would take more work to put all that stuff up there to match Sector 6's appearance.

Not about being strange, it's just going by the observation in front of us. They're under Sector 6, and Sector 7's plate is still there. In the game, the refugees run to Sector 6 to escape the potential collapse, only here in this ending.. It didn't happen.

Yeah they might have just reused sector 6's skybox to represent the collapsed plate, seeing as it would have been a lot of work to make an all new one for a 5 second scene. No exlanation for the sign though.

It's a CGI scene however. Why would they do that, when it'd be easier to just show an open sky?

 

[Odysseus]

I doubt they'd dedicate their big ending cinematic to something that huge just to have it in case they want to do AU stuff. That'd be stupid.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Not make sense how? Less sense than alternate timelines and universes?

Yes it's identical to sector 6 - again, because I assume they just recycled the sector 6 asset to showcase the sector 7 plate being under re-construction. And yes of course it's a change. That's the whole point of the ending isn't it?

Shit's weird in Midgar anyway. You're also under sector 6 when you're in sector 5, the massive rubble from sector 7 just isn't there when you're in the slums etc.
...actually, maybe we've already been hopping between parallel universes in the game and that's how all these inconsistencies come about.

Just watch the ending again, you can clearly see the attempted bombing of the plate has just happened recently. The amount of destructions looks similator to what you seen when you're using Aerith to rescue people. Maybe that ending is a few days or a week or something later at most. There's still wounded people on the ground and all that. They're clearing up and looking for survivors. It's not sector 7 being rebuild, it's a different timeline.

Here:

 

[Odysseus]

Why would they be handing out soup and beginning reconstruction if the bombing just happened?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I doubt they'd dedicate their big ending cinematic to something that huge just to have it in case they want to do AU stuff. That'd be stupid.

Back door pilots/spinoffs have started from lesser, more mundane things, I'll just say that

I mean, going by the ending in it's totality, it's a feel-good moment meant to give the audience a catharsis of at least helping/saving somebody. Even if it's not the actual people who exist within their own universe.

The continuity discrepancies in play here are too numerous, intentional, and obvious to write it off as anything but them purposefully screaming at us, "HEY, LOOK HOW DIFFERENT THIS ALL IS!"

Like, it's well done, and sweet. But in the end, I can't really be bothered to care much about it. Like, "Okay, that's a thing that happened. Nice. Let's get back to the core hunt for Sephiroth now."

 

[Dark and Divine]

That Ultimania can't come soon enough...

 

[Odysseus]

Are the Ultimanias usually more direct about what happened? If nothing else, this ending was specifically designed to keep people guessing.

I mean, going by the ending in it's totality, it's a feel-good moment meant to give the audience a catharsis of at least helping/saving somebody. Even if it's not the actual people who exist within their own universe.

The thing is that it took us three weeks to come more definitively to the conclusion that this even is a parallel universe where things went better for everyone. I doubt your average player is going to even realize. Also, in this universe, was Zack the merc who helpeded Avalanche? Hmm.

 

[Jairus]

Because while the plate was saved, Ody, damage still happened to Sector 7 before the battle with Reno and Rude. So some repair efforts are to be expected.

Mako, the whole point of the ending is to say that that hunt for Sephiroth isn't going to be the same this time. It takes place within the altered timeline where Sector 7 was saved and Zack, Jessie, and others are alive, not the one where things happened as in the OG. Zack and Cloud going to Midgar together happened in the past of that altered timeline, which is why Aerith seems to sense it, the change in what once was to what now is. The essence of the ending was to shatter the chain of events of the OG so the story and the hunt for Sephiroth are no longer bound by it.

 

[Tetsujin]

It's a CGI cutscene, isn't it? That's not in-game footage, they would have to purposefully have rendered a CGI cutscene and confusedly make their sky model an almost exact match of Sector 6, when it's supposed to be Sector 7. Given the fact Sector 7's sky would be bare thanks to the plate mostly being destroyed, it would take more work to put all that stuff up there to match Sector 6's appearance.

Not about being strange, it's just going by the observation in front of us. They're under Sector 6, and Sector 7's plate is still there. In the game, the refugees run to Sector 6 to escape the potential collapse, only here in this ending.. It didn't happen.

They already had a rendered model of a plate under construction - the same one that is being used for the skybox in-game. So they reused it for sector 7. The implication would be they are reconstructing sector 7. They are clearly in the sector 7 slums, the layout of all of that is the same as when you revisit it in chapter 13. Seventh Heaven bar is there and everything. What I got from that is they're rebuilding the slums, and the plate is being reconstructed as well, which is the reveal when they look up.

 

[Wol]

Because while the plate was saved, Ody, damage still happened to Sector 7 before the battle with Reno and Rude. So some repair efforts are to be expected.

Mako, the whole point of the ending is to say that that hunt for Sephiroth isn't going to be the same this time. It takes place within the altered timeline where Sector 7 was saved and Zack, Jessie, and others are alive, not the one where things happened as in the OG. Zack and Cloud going to Midgar together happened in the past of that altered timeline, which is why Aerith seems to sense it, the change in what once was to what now is. The essence of the ending was to shatter the chain of events of the OG so the story and the hunt for Sephiroth are no longer bound by it.

whats the point of defying fate if that will only create another timeline, while the same events will happen to Gaia-1 ver. of the characters?

I think what happened is a rewrite of the timeline.

 

[Makoeyes987]

... I just had a horrifyingly, mind-bending thought.

Spoiler: Thoughts better left unsaid

What if this entire ordeal was the result of a predestination-paradox that created a second Sephiroth, who is the Sephiroth Cloud and the others encountered and fought in Part 1?

What if the entire reason Sephiroth did what he did in Part 1 was to ensure his creation and backdoor himself into the current universe that exists now?

If there are two universes, that means there are presumably two Sephiroths. And if the universe that was created by the destruction of the Arbiters of Fate was the last action dictated by causality, it would stand to reason that this creates in essence, a closed time-loop.

The only issue with that, is that this easily could be the work of the prime-universe Sephiroth. However, the question still remains how he gained such knowledge and future-sight of events? Maybe it's from the Whispers. Maybe it's more. It's unknown.

Surely, they're not gonna have two fucking Sephiroths be the enemy here... That's not possible, is it..?

Mako, the whole point of the ending is to say that that hunt for Sephiroth isn't going to be the same this time. It takes place within the altered timeline where Sector 7 was saved and Zack, Jessie, and others are alive, not the one where things happened as in the OG. Zack and Cloud going to Midgar together happened in the past of that altered timeline, which is why Aerith seems to sense it, the change in what once was to what now is. The essence of the ending was to shatter the chain of events of the OG so the story and the hunt for Sephiroth are no longer bound by it.

No, the point is depicting a separate universe/dimension/timeline, that has been created from the Arbiters of Fate going bye-bye. That entire sequence of events, if you look at the ending closely, shows specific scenes/areas that are impacted by the snow-like fragments of the Whispers. They aren't the same. Cloud and the others however, do not have that in their scenes.

They already had a rendered model of a plate under construction - the same one that is being used for the skybox in-game. So they reused it for sector 7. The implication would be they are reconstructing sector 7. They are clearly in the sector 7 slums, the layout of all of that is the same as when you revisit it in chapter 13. Seventh Heaven bar is there and everything. What I got from that is they're rebuilding the slums, and the plate is being reconstructed as well, which is the reveal when they look up.

Who's rebuilding the plate then? Shinra clearly wanted to leave it and focus on Neo-Midgar. So something doesn't add up. That's still a major change of continuity, on top of the other things.

Also, would the assets from the game's engine be used for a CGI movie that's a cutscene?

whats the point of defying fate if that will only create another timeline, while the same events will happen to Gaia-1 ver. of the characters?

I think what happened is a rewrite of the timeline.

That's completely paradoxical then. If that happened, Cloud could just end up being his own grandpa at this rate. He can't be FFVII-Cloud and wielding a Buster Sword while a Zack exists within the same time period, wielding a Buster Sword and alive. That's just a complete, raw paradox. It'd be the equivalent of going back in time, killing your father before you were born, and returning to the same timeline unscathed.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Are the Ultimanias usually more direct about what happened? If nothing else, this ending was specifically designed to keep people guessing.

The thing is that it took us three weeks to come more definitively to the conclusion that this even is a parallel universe where things went better for everyone. I doubt your average player is going to even realize. Also, in this universe, was Zack the merc who helpeded Avalanche? Hmm.

This wasn't even the only clue. The dog shot and golden rain were also very visual clues, but many just choose to not believe in them, because they don't want to believe in the possibility of an alternative timeline, and I get that. I was also second guessing the other clues, but not anymore.

I think it doesn't matter if the "average" player doesn't realize this. They don't need to at this point. The new players don't even know at this moment who the hell was that black haired guy and his significance to the story. It's not for them, it's clearly to mess with OG players, maybe just to throw them off. It keeps the discussion going until the second game drops (well until trailers).

If I had to take a guess, I would still go with my previous theory, that they'll use this alternative timeline to show that a timeline where Zack lives leads to Aerith living/surviving and thus Sephiroth manages to win. Maybe they'll use it to build up Aerith's death and show that it's unavoidable and necessary.

But if they start to use both timelines in actual gameplay and we change between them, then I'm getting pretty nervous.

 

[Odysseus]

If I had to take a guess, I would still go with my previous theory, that they'll use this alternative timeline to show that a timeline where Zack lives leads to Aerith living/surviving and thus Sephiroth manages to win. Maybe they'll use it to build up Aerith's death and show that it's unavoidable and necessary.

On one hand, I have Mako saying this timeline is shown to fill the player with gratification of knowing that their actions helped somebody, even if not in the main reality. On the other hand, I have you using it as set up for some horrible reveal where everyone dies because things don't go how they were supposed to. Which is it? Would they really have the ending of this game be so dedicated to showing that they don't need to adhere to how things originally happened, only to back track so hard on that later as to showcase an entire reality being destroyed where they were allowed more creative freedom? I'm getting mixed messages here.