The ending is proving to be divisive, and I love it. This is the start of a big adventure. It was never supposed to end cleanly. We're going to have a lot of debates till Part 2, and part of me thinks that was the goal.
Sephiroth reveals he's way beyond Cloud's level and he's capable of messing with Cloud's head at will. Cloud and company would now have to do several things: figure out how to stop Sephiroth, figure out a way to become strong enough to fight Sephiroth, and for Cloud, to be free from his influence. Sephiroth says he knows the future, but we don't know if he actually did or he's just doing it to mess with Cloud more. At this point, Sephy's pretty much a god, and his influence in the planet is spreading.
How divisive the ending is remains to be seen, since we're technically not even on release date yet. And it also depends where you look. From Twitter to Reddit, people who played it, loved it. And players who admit it's a total mind screw out of left field, still say they enjoyed 4/5ths of it and they'll wait to see what happens.
I may still come around to buying and playing this game. I did like most of the compilation material. I think I'm just still in shock at what this series is apparently going to be, because it's complete contrary to what I was expecting- and wanted.
Wow - I am quite ashamed to say I have lost sleep the last couple of days based on this ending. To be clear I have not watched nor played it yet but just processing all my thoughts from everything I have read across 3 different forums.
For me, this one user on youtube has said it best and I desperately hope this is the way it is going and not time travel nonsense. I cant for life of me believe all the developers that have been so open about how important the game is to them and being faithful to the original whjilst being one of if not THE most beloved RPG of all time, would make such drastic, poor changes to involve time travel/time lines. When I read about the theories (for now that is all that they are) my heart literally sank, why would they pay such incredible attention to detail for 95% of the game to then throw some KH cack in? Anyway below is what the person said and it sort of echos what a couple of users on here have said:
I don't think Zack is alive. Rewatch the the original way Zack dies. He carries Cloud to a precipice that overlooks Midgar, the SAME place we see in this flashback sequence, he drops Cloud off, and is gunned down in the back. People are confusing Crisis Core with how the OG played out. People forget that Crisis Core itself retconned ALOT of things to work as a prequel. Zack's "final stand" against the Shinra Troops and him dying during the battle never happened in the OG. I love that they added it for the Remake, but this is obviously a diversion to make fans "think" he's alive but in part 2 we are going to find out that the place they stood in the ending is the very place he was killed. That's why Aerith and Cloud were able to see him there. It was an 'echo' of what happened, so to speak, but we didn't see the full story play out. Otherwise, how does Cloud have his sword? Why doesn't Zack go see Aerith when she was the very reason he returned in the first place? Let's use some common sense people. He's dead. The watchmen of Fate ensured that all the moments leading to the end of FF7 Remake matched the OG until the very end. However, the past is the past. Zack is long dead now. That's not to say Nojima and Nomura won't do some madness down the line, but people need to keep their wild expectations in check. Alot of what the Remake did was NOT random ideas that they threw in there, but original concepts that never made it to the finished product due to tech limitations and development time. The Sephiroth fight was obvious fan service, but it was pretty obvious if you played the original and the remake that it wasn't actually him. I interpreted it as a more 'elaborate' use of brainwashing Sephiroth is giving Cloud. He let him believe that he was able to stand toe to toe with him to push him onward for the Reunion because he knows Cloud's motivation is to be a hero who grows stronger. If Zack didn't die, the entirety of FF7 wouldn't have happened, including what was covered in the Remake. Read between the lines. Pretty sure Cloud wouldn't be having a identity crisis right now if Zack was still kicking. I mean fuck me, read the description of the Buster Sword. It literally tells you that the sword was 'inherited'.
For me I can get behind the idea of the whispers addition if its along the lines of allowing the party to potentially see what the future could hold. I absolutely love the idea of Sephiroth tricking Cloud in to thinking he is so strong as he knows that will propel Cloud toward the Reunion.
PLease please developers, not after all this time, you can't mess this up like this!
Wow - I am quite ashamed to say I have lost sleep the last couple of days based on this ending. To be clear I have not watched nor played it yet but just processing all my thoughts from everything I have read across 3 different forums....
Wait to play the game. Or at the very least watchwhat you're losing sleep over. Dear lord. That makes zero sense to be completely a-contextual and unaware of something you're claiming to lose sleep over.
Play the game. Or at least experience it in some form or fashion before getting this worked up.
I get that it's possible for it to not go downhill. But this is like grabbing an electrified fence every day for five days straight and getting electrocuted, then on the sixth day trying again with the mindset "I'm sure it's turned off this time."
But this is part 1... now if part 2 actually turns out bad, then I would agree with you. But right now part 1 is hella good with the exception of having unresolved questions that can result to really bad outcomes (which could also turn out to be perfectly genius). If you are judging it with previous works like KH and other FF (assuming you hated the recent works) then wouldn't that mean you didn't even want part 1 in the first place and was a lost cause already? I really do not understand this mindset. As a business, why would they cater to the lost cause?
The video of the ending pretty much highlighted it. Another poster earlier said new players were going to find it confusing. I've seen posts on Reddit/gamefaqs where newbies are wondering what happened. I know someone who got the game earlier and thinks it's confusing. Bloody hell, I found it confusing.
It's not 'data' sure, but after all of that do you think the majority of new players aren't going to be confused?
They might hate it, I am not claiming we should sing them praises just yet. But it is also too early to say that majority of the new players will dislike it either just because some person found it confusing. Just because I found some posts in forums of people loving it, doesn't mean it has become the game of the century just yet. I might even call it "intriguing" instead of "confusing". It raises a lot of questions but even the OG which is already completed raised quite a bit. I actually like the questions and there are plenty others that do so as well.
Yes, but the problem is a core part of the base that was looking forward to the game for a long time is now either not interested, angry, or incredibly anxious about the future direction of the series.
It's not change itself that bothers me, it's changing the themes of the series- the primary reason I love the game. Which only further illustrates how out of touch Square is with what made the series beloved to begin with.
I mean, of all the things to add to this game, 'timey-wimey visions of fate' is the best they could come up with? One of the most overused tropes in literature that rarely works right? Seriously?
I dunno... Unless the extreme takes that people imagine comes true (and I really do not believe that at all), the changes seem to be good (can even be called genius, depending on how flexible one is). They managed to keep all the key elements of the story the same while changing some events up to keep us on our toes. The watchers of faith seems to be more "us" the old players. And every time they show a vision, I get a tickling sensation of things to come. New players, like my younger brother will not get it's significance and just see it as mere "visions". It's not that bad.
the alternate timelines scenes might just represent the retconned stuff of the compilation, like paradoxes in a sense, that would fit with an old interview where Nomura said continuity with the compilation and remake wouldnt be possible. Lol
That's not what they showed.. They weren't timelines... They were images from the recognizable future.
And they weren't paradoxes. And as @Theozilla stated, that interview was a miscommunication about making a full collection of the Compilation games as a bundle. Kitase has been saying as late as March they were gonna include stuff from the Compilation, so that what's they did.
"Include stuff from the Compilation" rings very differently if this whole "Fate" thingy is about alternative timelines, time travel or whatever. That'd mean they include them to say they won't come to pass anymore.
...which is nuts. The smart thing to do is to allude to them so that people will buy them and give them money without them pouring out anything new; "free money" is an expression in my language. The less smart thing is to open alternative universes, as in a multiverse, and put different Compilation entries in each one and turn the FFVII story into the Marvel multiverse, where any new creator in SE can do whatever they want with the story and characters and call it Earth 616 a stupid latin name.
...which is something I have been suspicious about since I heard Kitase talk about "the future of Final Fantasy" in the documentary series (part 1 I think). He was talking about the whole franchise, not just 7. If SE wants to leave the FF series for a FF7 series, well... that's one way to do it.
"Include stuff from the Compilation" rings very differently if this whole "Fate" thingy is about alternative timelines, time travel or whatever. That'd mean they include them to say they won't come to pass anymore.
...which is nuts. The smart thing to do is to allude to them so that people will buy them and give them money without them pouring out anything new; "free money" is an expression in my language. The less smart thing is to open alternative universes, as in a multiverse, and put different Compilation entries in each one and turn the FFVII story into the Marvel multiverse, where any new creator in SE can do whatever they want with the story and characters and call it Earth 616 a stupid latin name.
...which is something I have been suspicious about since I heard Kitase talk about "the future of Final Fantasy" in the documentary series (part 1 I think). He was talking about the whole franchise, not just 7. If SE wants to leave the FF series for a FF7 series, well... that's one way to do it.
I think you're going way overboard here. That's... Not what they were referring to in terms of the future of Final Fantasy at all. They're not replacing it with an entirety of FFVII.... And just as I've said before, they're not going to void one the film work they've been proud of and clearly inspired by with this Remake. Really don't get why people keep postulating they're of a mind to burn down their past work here.
Following that, I'm not sure why you or Wol are speaking of alternate timelines when there's only been reference of a "future" timeline, with glimpses of said future. Red himself commented on the future. Not an "alt" or divide here. Is this like, a carry over from the Zack glimpse? Because again, that wasn't Stamp. That's a different puppy who's one of Stamp's Champs. Not an AU of Stamp.
The whole fate thing makes sense when you see the scene where meteor destroys Midgard and Sephiroth kills Tifa and Barret. There are possibilities of a future, however we, as old fans, know that if it comes to that, we also know that we will have failed. There is only one path that can allow us to succeed and save the planet, and that is where Aerith dies and she can summon Holy and connect with the Planet from the Lifestream (I would find super interesting if we could play that part from that novel BTW).
The whole fate thing makes sense when you see the scene where meteor destroys Midgard and Sephiroth kills Tifa and Barret. There are possibilities of a future, however we, as old fans, know that if it comes to that, we also know that we will have failed. There is only one path that can allow us to succeed and save the planet, and that is where Aerith dies and she can summon Holy and connect with the Planet from the Lifestream (I would find super interesting if we could play that part from that novel BTW).
Which is a clear reference of intent towards Sephiroth attempting to utilize the singularity for his own ends but that's a whole discussion in and of itself.
I took the theories floating around that match what I think for the most part... Except, I assumed the ghost are still alive (just thwarted). And I made a mash up. I know it's me searching for people who agree, but they worded it better and more fact accurate than I would have so it help
...
Sephiroth after the events of Advent Children has found a way to time travel to the past.
He time travels to Midgar just after the first mako reactor explosion. He meets Cloud in the back alley (which doesn't happen in the original FF7) and talks to him.
After Sephiroth talks to Cloud it alters the timeline so the guardians of destiny, the Whispers, show up to try and restore order and not let the past change due to Sephiroth's intervention.
As Cloud was delayed by TT (time travel) Sephiroth in the alley he would have missed running into Aerith thus changing the timeline forever, so the Whispers show up and keep Aerith in place so they can still both meet.
Throughout the rest of the game TT Sephiroth makes appearances, and whenever these appearances alter how the characters would act the Whispers intervene to keep everything on track with destiny (the original FF7 storyline). The 'keepers of fate' show up at pivotal moments in the storyline to prevent changes from happening to the story.
The intervention after letting Cloud meet Aerith continues, She doesnt leave immediately after cloud tells her to go, and as a result, the shinra troops find cloud while aerith Is still present. Its at this point that the keepers show up and scare aeris away. Odd, right?
Next scene with the keepers is in the slums. Cloud wasn't going to go on the 2nd bombing mission. It was a way to make him go. They attack in the Sector 7 Slums to injure Jessie so she doesnt go to the Sector 5 Reactor forcing Cloud to go.
After that, the next time we see them is in the church after cloud defeats reno. Cloud is about to kill reno and the keepers show up and drag him and aeris away to the back room. In the back room, the wispers proceed to show Cload and Airith the direction they escaped in the OG. Aerith almost falls down from the upper area on there way out but, the wispers save her from falling and being captured by Reno and his guards.
In Shinra HQ the wispers show up and just take away Wedge who had survived his fall off of the column support beam tower, & then he had survived the plate drop on sector 7.
1 more example is hojo is about to reveal to cloud and company that he was never in soldier, then he is taken away by the keepers.
In the original FF7 Palmer doesn't see Sephiroth/Jenova until he kills President Shinra. In this one he sees TT Sephiroth in the hallway which alters the course causing President Shinra to not be found already dead by Cloud and co and with Palmer hiding to witness it all. This time Jenova (or TT Sephiroth) kills President Shinra AND Barret, however the Whispers intervene to keep Barrett alive, & to keep their destiny on track as per the original FF7 storyline.
Eventually they make it to the end of the Midgar expressway where they would normally leave Midgar, however TT Sephiroth shows up to have Cloud and co defeat destiny. Cloud and co fight destiny and have flashforwards of what will happen if they do not defeat destiny (the original FF7 timeline).
They eventually defeat the destiny ghost allowing them to forge a new future where TT Sephiroth is in their timeline from the future. From here on out anything can happen. Airith speaks to the group on the endless possibility's that awaits them on the other side.
TT Sephiroth then brings Cloud to the Edge of Creation and seems to be trying to help him. He tells him that now destiny has been defeated "That which lies ahead...does not yet exist" meaning he is now unsure of how the future will unfold.
TT Sephiroth then looks towards the edge of creation saying "Our world will become a part of it...one day." followed by "nor will I have you end." insinuating that he wants to keep Cloud alive. He then asks Cloud to help him "defy destiny together". Cloud refuses and he is sent back to Midgar.
At this point, id like you to acknowledge that events are playing out differently to the original. Cloud never went to the cosmos edge before, and if the keepers were not there to stop said story events from transpiring, the story would change dramatically. The puprose of the watchers is to keep the events of ff7 in line with the original.
The ending reveals that sephiroth, and to a lesser extent Aerith, are aware of this. Sephiroth knows that he loses in the end if the keepers continue to preserve the events of this ff7 timeline, so he manipulated Cloud and company to fight them.
After Sephiroth sends cloud back to Midgar from the cosmos edge. they fight an advent children style sephiroth(???)
With the keepers dead, and the skies becoming clear, its Insinuated that because they no longer exist, the original timeline and events of ff7 are not going to happen as they did in the original. The ff7 you have been playing was either never was the one you thought it was, and only happened the way it did because the keepers tried to keep events the same, or that the OG was/is a overarching past to this alternative time line. Now they (the Wispers) are dead and going forward from here means anything can happen.
The next game may not even be FF7 remake now... It could be FF7 Rebirth
I think this was the whole point of letting old players know that anything could happen. It just was such a convoluted way to do so.
As for Zack, it's possible Sephiroth helped him defeat the soldiers without him realizing it. The Whispers then surrounded Midgar to stop Zack from going there and changing destiny.
However when Cloud defeats destiny in the not so far future it destroys the whispers stopping Zack going home and allows him to live. I don't know they are a lot of holes in this theory.
I could be completely wrong but this is how I best interpreted the events.
Pot holes I know... Why not TTsephy go and kill cloud as a kid... A million more plot holes... I chock it to the fault of off the wall writing attempt.
In fairness, the whole Flashback Stamp thing is oddly pointed, and does have the whole "Original" mark on it.
Personally, I think it's supposed to be a cute hint that Zack is the "original" Soldier 1st Class (vis-a-vis Cloud, whom Barrett called Stamp). But you can maybe see why people who picked up on some but not all of the that stuff might start to read into it that way: if the significance of something like that isn't immediately clear, they'll start to try and create significance; if they have the idea of alternate timelines and time travel already in their brains, they'll start interpreting anything else they see along those lines. Hence, the "Different Stamp for a Different Timeline" theory.
In fairness, the whole Flashback Stamp thing is oddly pointed, and does have the whole "Original" mark on it.
Personally, I think it's supposed to be a cute hint that Zack is the "original" Soldier 1st Class (vis-a-vis Cloud, whom Barrett called Stamp). But you can maybe see why people who picked up on some but not all of the that stuff might start to read into it that way: if the significance of something like that isn't immediately clear, they'll start to try and create significance; if they have the idea of alternate timelines and time travel already in their brains, they'll start interpreting anything else they see along those lines. Hence, the "Different Stamp for a Different Timeline" theory.
Yeah, it's a reference to "Zack the Puppy." The original puppy, or Stamp Champ, so to speak.
Right, I get that without context it's confusing but that's why snap judgments or waiting for said context matters. Especially in regards to Zack and any potential "living" a dearly departed individual may be doing
It just kinda blows my mind how many people leapt to Zack being alive. I suppose it's a testament to his popularity and brings to mind the Wreck It Ralph graffiti in the movie that says, "AERITH LIVES!!!"
I took the theories floating around that match what I think for the most part... Except, I assumed the ghost are still alive (just thwarted). And I made a mash up. I know it's me searching for people who agree, but they worded it better and more fact accurate than I would have so it help
...
Sephiroth after the events of Advent Children has found a way to time travel to the past.
He time travels to Midgar just after the first mako reactor explosion. He meets Cloud in the back alley (which doesn't happen in the original FF7) and talks to him.
After Sephiroth talks to Cloud it alters the timeline so the guardians of destiny, the Whispers, show up to try and restore order and not let the past change due to Sephiroth's intervention.
As Cloud was delayed by TT (time travel) Sephiroth in the alley he would have missed running into Aerith thus changing the timeline forever, so the Whispers show up and keep Aerith in place so they can still both meet.
Throughout the rest of the game TT Sephiroth makes appearances, and whenever these appearances alter how the characters would act the Whispers intervene to keep everything on track with destiny (the original FF7 storyline). The 'keepers of fate' show up at pivotal moments in the storyline to prevent changes from happening to the story.
The intervention after letting Cloud meet Aerith continues, She doesnt leave immediately after cloud tells her to go, and as a result, the shinra troops find cloud while aerith Is still present. Its at this point that the keepers show up and scare aeris away. Odd, right?
Next scene with the keepers is in the slums. Cloud wasn't going to go on the 2nd bombing mission. It was a way to make him go. They attack in the Sector 7 Slums to injure Jessie so she doesnt go to the Sector 5 Reactor forcing Cloud to go.
After that, the next time we see them is in the church after cloud defeats reno. Cloud is about to kill reno and the keepers show up and drag him and aeris away to the back room. In the back room, the wispers proceed to show Cload and Airith the direction they escaped in the OG. Aerith almost falls down from the upper area on there way out but, the wispers save her from falling and being captured by Reno and his guards.
In Shinra HQ the wispers show up and just take away Wedge who had survived his fall off of the column support beam tower, & then he had survived the plate drop on sector 7.
1 more example is hojo is about to reveal to cloud and company that he was never in soldier, then he is taken away by the keepers.
In the original FF7 Palmer doesn't see Sephiroth/Jenova until he kills President Shinra. In this one he sees TT Sephiroth in the hallway which alters the course causing President Shinra to not be found already dead by Cloud and co and with Palmer hiding to witness it all. This time Jenova (or TT Sephiroth) kills President Shinra AND Barret, however the Whispers intervene to keep Barrett alive, & to keep their destiny on track as per the original FF7 storyline.
Eventually they make it to the end of the Midgar expressway where they would normally leave Midgar, however TT Sephiroth shows up to have Cloud and co defeat destiny. Cloud and co fight destiny and have flashforwards of what will happen if they do not defeat destiny (the original FF7 timeline).
They eventually defeat the destiny ghost allowing them to forge a new future where TT Sephiroth is in their timeline from the future. From here on out anything can happen. Airith speaks to the group on the endless possibility's that awaits them on the other side.
TT Sephiroth then brings Cloud to the Edge of Creation and seems to be trying to help him. He tells him that now destiny has been defeated "That which lies ahead...does not yet exist" meaning he is now unsure of how the future will unfold.
TT Sephiroth then looks towards the edge of creation saying "Our world will become a part of it...one day." followed by "nor will I have you end." insinuating that he wants to keep Cloud alive. He then asks Cloud to help him "defy destiny together". Cloud refuses and he is sent back to Midgar.
At this point, id like you to acknowledge that events are playing out differently to the original. Cloud never went to the cosmos edge before, and if the keepers were not there to stop said story events from transpiring, the story would change dramatically. The puprose of the watchers is to keep the events of ff7 in line with the original. The next game may not even be FF7 remake now... It could be FF7 rebirth
The ending reveals that sephiroth, and to a lesser extent Aerith, are aware of this. Sephiroth knows that he loses in the end if the keepers continue to preserve the events of this ff7 timeline, so he manipulated Cloud and company to fight them.
After Sephiroth sends cloud back to Midgar from the cosmos edge. they fight an advent children style sephiroth(???)
With the keepers dead, and the skies becoming clear, its Insinuated that because they no longer exist, the original timeline and events of ff7 are not going to happen as they did in the original. The ff7 you have been playing was either never was the one you thought it was, and only happened the way it did because the keepers tried to keep events the same, or that is a overarching past to this alternative time line. Now they (the Wispers) are dead and going forward from here means anything can happen.
I think this was the whole point of letting old players know that anything could happen. It was such a convoluted way to do so.
As for Zack, it's possible Sephiroth helped him defeat the soldiers without him realizing it. The Whispers then surrounded Midgar to stop Zack from going there and changing destiny.
However when Cloud defeats destiny in the not so far future it destroys the whispers stopping Zack going home and allows him to live. I don't know they are a lot of holes in this theory.
I could be completely wrong but this is how I best interpreted the events.
Pot holes know... Why not TTsephy go and kill cloud as a kid... A million more plot holes... I chock it to the fault of off the wall writing attempt.
Ah! I see. Well, that's not what I was referring to. I mean in the CC-ending-now-inserted-in-the-Remake, where Zack takes the buster sword and repeats the "Embrace your dreams" speech. He has the OG buster sword.
I don't have an image available now, but I clearly remember it.
I am laughing about how wrong and how right the propaganda about the Ancents is. At least we know know where Bugenhagen got his holographic theater idea!
I think what is rubbing people the wrong way about the ending is that that Nomura and his fellow creators are pretty much asking people to trust that Nomura and Co. know what they are doing. Only... there's two competing bodies of evidence for that. On the one hand, there's the game that has just been played; FFVIIR feels like FFVIIR and it's obvious that Nomura and Co. know what the world of FFVII should feel like. On the other hand, there's the body of other recent work Nomura and Co. have also developed and there's been more than a few raised eyebrows over where the plot of those games has gone. So there's a tug of war between Nomura and Co. getting FFVII and Nomura and Co. writing stories that have weird endings.
Essentially, it's a question of what do we trust more? The FFVIIR game we just played or the other non-FFVII games Nomura and Co. have had a hand in creating in recent times. And some people trust the non-FFVII games more.
I mean in the CC-ending-now-inserted-in-the-Remake, where Zack takes the buster sword and repeats the "Embrace your dreams" speech. He has the OG buster sword. 