SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Umm. No, they didn't.
No. That's not how Sin worked at all. The final aeon used to beat Sin would be possessed by Yu Yevon, which would use the pyreflies of the Aeon and of the surrounding area to reforge Sin's armor. Subsequently Sin would be reborn anew. Sin always is a space whale. And it's a massive kaiju-esque creature of total destruction.
It also would require Dream Zanarkand since its goal perpetually summon and protect it. Leaving it no reason to live on another planet.
oty
Pro Adventurer
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- ex-soldier boy
If it's a pseudosequel, how can it be a reboot?
Nomura went out and stated that this game doesnt overwrite the original. This doesnt need to have an actual explanation of "alternate realities" or "sequel", he said that because this is just too different for one to replace the other. Then the in-game moments come, and there are a lot of references to the original and it's compilation titles. We, unknowingly, try to link up these two ideas ("one doesnt replace the other" and "one is referenced in the other") and as such, the most quick thing to think is that the Remake is a "alternate timeline" that can spiral to a Reboot. But the thing is, did Nomura say that because of the actual in-game "explanations"? Or he really just said that because they are different games itself?
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
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- Noble
How did Jecht turn into sin then? Tidus was hurt about beating his par par, the guy that took the journey before him with arron.
Maybe it be written that the FFX history was told just a little off... The way FFVII history is being understood just a little off.
Maybe you can say, the same way jecht was the final aeyon which the pyreflies of the Aeon Jehct got used to revive a defeated sin. Pierflies are just the gold dust we saw in the final cutseen of FF7r and the lifstream has it's own version of pieflies bring back monsters like the common materia
And dream Zanarkand was a time encapsulation made by the fates a.k.a the ancient spirals that wanted to avoid there Midgar (Zanarkand) going extinct. The fates had powers that ring coincidence to the "Arbiters of fate", just saying. (Names that match) They even wore Hoodies that match
If kid Shinra from Spira, is shown in a picture to be present on Gaia as a adult. You got to connect the dots somehow... I really Dont know.
Who else has a theory of what that gold dust is other than healing snow...
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
We don't even know if it's a "reboot" or not. Given the fact, you know, we haven't seen Part 2 at all. Acting like the entire previous 17 chapters and it's ending somehow doesn't exist or lead into the heroes pursuing Sephiroth as shown in FFVII is catastrophizing over change. The ambiguity leaves some things open but stating its somehow all a lie or now never going to be FFVII at all is really unhealthy, dramatic hyperbole.
He turned into Sin through what I just said. Braska's final aeon ended up being controlled and made into Sin just like all others. Sin has always been a giant space whale and it's appearance stays the same.
.... No. Dream Zanarakand is not. Are you trying to make things up here? Dream Zanarakand no longer exists because the Fayth stopped dreaming. Before, it was a pyrefly city summoned perpetually by the Fayth.
He turned into Sin through what I just said. Braska's final aeon ended up being controlled and made into Sin just like all others. Sin has always been a giant space whale and it's appearance stays the same.
.... No. Dream Zanarakand is not. Are you trying to make things up here? Dream Zanarakand no longer exists because the Fayth stopped dreaming. Before, it was a pyrefly city summoned perpetually by the Fayth.
HENRCAST
Lv. 1 Adventurer
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- HENRCAST
There has been a lot of stuff in this thread, so I think it might be useful to recap all we know for sure so far:
- The biggest new thing in the remake are the Whispers. They are described as "arbiters of fate" (Barret), "voices of the planet (...) those born into this world. Who live and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain" (Aerith), and as "entities from a future timeline that fight to protect that future that gave shape to them" (Bestiary);
- They intercede whenever events threaten to deviate from the OG. It doesn't matter who causes the deviation (Cloud when he almost kills Reno, Hojo when he almost tells Cloud about his past, Sephiroth when he kills Barret and so on). However, Aerith clearly states that they are howling in pain because of Sephiroth;
- Near the end of the game, a massive amount of Whispers comes together and forms the portal through which the party goes through. They arrive at an alternate version of Midgar. Things that happen there don't impact the "actual" Midgar (the whole city is destroyed in "alternate Midgar", but remains intact in the "actual one");
- Events happening within "alternate Midgar" are visible to people outside of it in multiple points in time (Zack sees what is going on from a distance, even though he is in the past). Thus, "alternate Midgar" might be a "singularity;"
- Inside "alternate Midgar", the party fights a massive monster created form an agglomeration of Whispers, as well as three smaller ones. The smaller ones fight with "a sword", a "bare hands", and "guns;"
- During the fight, they see a number of visions of events that happened in the OG but at a future point in relation to the remake (Meteorfall, Red XIII running through a deserted landscape, the moments before Aerith's death) and so on. They interpret those events negatively (saying things like “this can’t be our future,” “this would be the result of us failing today”).
- The party defeats the Whispers. However, what happens to the Whispers is unclear. We latter see Sephiroth controlling them (which he hadn’t done until then). This, in conjunction with the cutscene that plays right after the Whisper fight, have led some to interpret as Sephiroth having absorbed Whispers.
- Even after the party defeated the Whispers, Sephiroth still invites Cloud to join him in “defying fate”. Cloud refuses. In what is possibly the most cryptic scene so far, Sephiroth talks about the “edge of creation” and declares that Cloud has “7 seconds until the end”;
- After the talk with Sephiroth, the party finds themselves outside of “actual Midgar” (which remains undestroyed) and leave to pursue Sephiroth.
Now, I’m not quite sure how to interpret this, but I’ll give it a try.
It seems to me that the three Whispers at the end (who fight with a sword, bare hands and guns) might be Cloud, Tifa and Barret from a future timeline. Like the other Whispers, they have already “died and returned”. Going from the visions the party had, they come from a future where a sequence of events like that of the OG has already happened. Aerith and Red XIII might not be among the Whispers because their future selves are respectively in the Lifestream and alive.
Sephiroth is acting to stop the chain of events that the Whispers are trying to maintain. This implies that he has somehow acquired knowledge that the actions of the Whispers are against his best interests. The party, however, sees only specific glimpses of the future – all of which, lacking context, look terrible (a meteor falling, Midgar abandoned, Aerith about to die). Thus, they misinterpret this future as bad, and act against fate (as Aerith put it, “the future is always a blank page”).
I think that, in the end, Sephiroth got what he wanted from that confrontation. The party defeated the Whispers, and Sephy is later seen (possibly) absorbing and (definitively) controlling them. I don’t think he was thwarted at all, since he appeared to be in control the entire time. But I’m not sure that Sephy got all he needs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense for him to ask Cloud for help in defying destiny. In other words, taming the Whispers might be a necessary, but still insufficient, condition in achieving his plans.
Now, I have no clue where the devs are going with this, and whether it implies that they won’t follow the OG anymore. We’ll probably just have to wait for an interview to shed light on that. I also have no idea what the deal with the “7 seconds” thing was.
- The biggest new thing in the remake are the Whispers. They are described as "arbiters of fate" (Barret), "voices of the planet (...) those born into this world. Who live and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain" (Aerith), and as "entities from a future timeline that fight to protect that future that gave shape to them" (Bestiary);
- They intercede whenever events threaten to deviate from the OG. It doesn't matter who causes the deviation (Cloud when he almost kills Reno, Hojo when he almost tells Cloud about his past, Sephiroth when he kills Barret and so on). However, Aerith clearly states that they are howling in pain because of Sephiroth;
- Near the end of the game, a massive amount of Whispers comes together and forms the portal through which the party goes through. They arrive at an alternate version of Midgar. Things that happen there don't impact the "actual" Midgar (the whole city is destroyed in "alternate Midgar", but remains intact in the "actual one");
- Events happening within "alternate Midgar" are visible to people outside of it in multiple points in time (Zack sees what is going on from a distance, even though he is in the past). Thus, "alternate Midgar" might be a "singularity;"
- Inside "alternate Midgar", the party fights a massive monster created form an agglomeration of Whispers, as well as three smaller ones. The smaller ones fight with "a sword", a "bare hands", and "guns;"
- During the fight, they see a number of visions of events that happened in the OG but at a future point in relation to the remake (Meteorfall, Red XIII running through a deserted landscape, the moments before Aerith's death) and so on. They interpret those events negatively (saying things like “this can’t be our future,” “this would be the result of us failing today”).
- The party defeats the Whispers. However, what happens to the Whispers is unclear. We latter see Sephiroth controlling them (which he hadn’t done until then). This, in conjunction with the cutscene that plays right after the Whisper fight, have led some to interpret as Sephiroth having absorbed Whispers.
- Even after the party defeated the Whispers, Sephiroth still invites Cloud to join him in “defying fate”. Cloud refuses. In what is possibly the most cryptic scene so far, Sephiroth talks about the “edge of creation” and declares that Cloud has “7 seconds until the end”;
- After the talk with Sephiroth, the party finds themselves outside of “actual Midgar” (which remains undestroyed) and leave to pursue Sephiroth.
Now, I’m not quite sure how to interpret this, but I’ll give it a try.
It seems to me that the three Whispers at the end (who fight with a sword, bare hands and guns) might be Cloud, Tifa and Barret from a future timeline. Like the other Whispers, they have already “died and returned”. Going from the visions the party had, they come from a future where a sequence of events like that of the OG has already happened. Aerith and Red XIII might not be among the Whispers because their future selves are respectively in the Lifestream and alive.
Sephiroth is acting to stop the chain of events that the Whispers are trying to maintain. This implies that he has somehow acquired knowledge that the actions of the Whispers are against his best interests. The party, however, sees only specific glimpses of the future – all of which, lacking context, look terrible (a meteor falling, Midgar abandoned, Aerith about to die). Thus, they misinterpret this future as bad, and act against fate (as Aerith put it, “the future is always a blank page”).
I think that, in the end, Sephiroth got what he wanted from that confrontation. The party defeated the Whispers, and Sephy is later seen (possibly) absorbing and (definitively) controlling them. I don’t think he was thwarted at all, since he appeared to be in control the entire time. But I’m not sure that Sephy got all he needs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense for him to ask Cloud for help in defying destiny. In other words, taming the Whispers might be a necessary, but still insufficient, condition in achieving his plans.
Now, I have no clue where the devs are going with this, and whether it implies that they won’t follow the OG anymore. We’ll probably just have to wait for an interview to shed light on that. I also have no idea what the deal with the “7 seconds” thing was.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
I've read somewhere that the "7 Seconds" thing is the time that it took to Sephiroth to descend and kill Aerith in the original cutscene.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
That seems a bit too esoteric and obscure. I really don't think it's anything but the time remaining before the space they were in to dissipate and reality to return.
Kratos
Pro Adventurer
Or it’s simply a fun Easter egg referencing something that was always more in-joke than real lore.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
How much more explicit does it need to be made?
The writers have been referencing this for years.
Now we have an adult Shinra from X-2 shown as one of the founding generational members of the company. That's a joke now?
oty
Pro Adventurer
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- ex-soldier boy
I will say, the 7 seconds is possibly the most cringey, KH-like thing by far in the entire game. Goddamn, does that thing just screams Xemnas or some shit.
Anyway, I think yeah, that summary is pretty much what we got here. And I think it's all a mixture: it's something unique story wise to the remake, but also a metaphore I believe. Nomura and co. knows the pressure amd assured complaints the game would receive no matter what they did, and he never wanted to the same. Thats why the ending is so cryptic. It was planned to have that "meta" structure into it. Or atleast, I think.
Anyway, I think yeah, that summary is pretty much what we got here. And I think it's all a mixture: it's something unique story wise to the remake, but also a metaphore I believe. Nomura and co. knows the pressure amd assured complaints the game would receive no matter what they did, and he never wanted to the same. Thats why the ending is so cryptic. It was planned to have that "meta" structure into it. Or atleast, I think.
Noble0ne
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- Noble
I know it stopped existing once the fates stoped dreaming. I was referring to what it was while it existed as a dream.... It was a copy of memories from actual place that existed in there world
But yeah, I'm not the biggest fan head of FFX so forgive me, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. But at least pick up on the notions we're I am accurate.
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Noble0ne
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Dots connected, that's all I wanted lol
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Xemnas is one of the most badass antagonists of KH so
And that's actually more evocative Dio to be precise but that's neither here nor there.
And people can pretend KH is cringe/bad/etc all they like, but the fact remains it is one of the most popular RPG series and it is heavily inspired by FF, and vice versa. It has acted as a bridge to FF for over a decade and embedded itself into a lot of fan's minds given their connection. It sounds so "Get off my lawn" trying to dismissively use KH as an insult when there's probably half of FF fans or more that are into this series thanks to KH now.
They're gonna do fine because they thrive on this ambiguity in the first place.
Kratos
Pro Adventurer
There’s an interview that outright states it as a joke, Ultimania presence aside.
At any rate, I’d be shocked if the Remake did anything more with it than this photo.
Noble0ne
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- Noble
Two things can be great and be a good fit one way. But still not a good fit visa verse.
People wanted FF in KH... People do not want KH in FF
NeithOF
Rookie Adventurer
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- Nathan
I don't know if it's just me, cause the entire fanbase all over the internet right now is up in arms over the ending and I expect a shitstorm like we've never seen before to hit once the actual game releases (i fully expect the userscore to be mass raided with 0's), but all this just sounds incredibly interesting and refreshing to me and I look forward to part 2 more than ever before. Nojima/Nomura/Kitase/Toriyama "killed" my nostalgia and gave birth to something I'd never thought i'd feel from this Remake ever. That's "intense Anticipation and suspense". I hope it all works out well in the end and that people will give 7R a chance.
This thread also helped a lot. All this theory crafting and trying to analyze the ending is exactly what the team wanted the fanbase to do and sadly TLS forum is the only place right now doing this. You guys are awesome.
This thread also helped a lot. All this theory crafting and trying to analyze the ending is exactly what the team wanted the fanbase to do and sadly TLS forum is the only place right now doing this. You guys are awesome.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
There's more than that. Aside from the actual X-2 scene, there's Dirge of Cerberus and the Sierra, with the conversation Cid has about the Sierra airship utilizing unknown alien technology.. Not to mention its interior looking extremely similar to airships from the world of Spira.
Okay and that applies to literally anything.
And who said that? There are plenty others who have not expressed that at all and don't find an evocative reference to KH as a negative. They see it as a possitive.
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
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- Noble
Well said...
Still then, I personally dont want heavy KH style in my FF. a super light homage maybe.
And I think more people are of that notion because Kingdom Hearts started with Final Fantasy. All Final Fantasy main franchise numbers, have always been self contained to higher standards.
Still then, I personally dont want heavy KH style in my FF. a super light homage maybe.
And I think more people are of that notion because Kingdom Hearts started with Final Fantasy. All Final Fantasy main franchise numbers, have always been self contained to higher standards.
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
Well for the canonical connection between FFX and FFVII, I don't believe "joke" is really the expression there as much as varying Easter Eggs can be for any intended purpose. However it IS an Easter Egg, by the way it is being implemented here and has been over the years, yes. FFX and FFVII are still two very different stories, even when interpreting similarities that can also be done through numerous FF titles outside of the typical recurring elements. The functionality of this, which would be decided by the efforts of application in either canon, is still rather vague in whether it's meant to be taken strictly in coexistence, or to be in some "schrödinger-like" existence, or just simply ambiguous plot points for the sake of the interest and creative expression. Until it's established more effectively, I stick with the latter. They have the means to do that pretty easily and for fun, obviously.
Noble0ne
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- Noble
I think the two universes being joined, and sephiroth showing his the edge of creation cosmos, is not a coincidence.
Since Bugenhagen observatory, the idea that there are other planets out there with lifestream like operation, has always been a thing that has interest to sephiroth. But now there is the reinforced added idea that one of those planets with similarity really is Spira
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Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
personally, KH is the lowest point in terms of story. I find it to be of extremely poor quality and taste, and if FF follows the same path sadly Ill probaby lose interest like I did with KH (I played KH and KH: CoM and that was enough for me lol).
just not my thing.
just not my thing.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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I remember someone years ago saying it would take a picture of kid Shinra in the Shinra Company as one of the founding members of the family, to make them believe it was more than an "Easter Egg."
And look where we are now.
People can keep sleeping on him all they want. When Part 3 includes a hidden boss fight with a sealed up Almighty Shinra kept below Midgar... Well. Everyone will know the truth.
And FFVII and FFX wouldn't be the first entry to take place in the same universe.
FF Tactics->Vagrant Story->FFXII say "what's up." They've been in a shared universe since 1998.
And look where we are now.
People can keep sleeping on him all they want. When Part 3 includes a hidden boss fight with a sealed up Almighty Shinra kept below Midgar... Well. Everyone will know the truth.
And FFVII and FFX wouldn't be the first entry to take place in the same universe.
FF Tactics->Vagrant Story->FFXII say "what's up." They've been in a shared universe since 1998.