SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Interslicery]

Red XIII seems to have gotten most of his knowledge from Aerith (tho who knows cause he never spoke before she "gifted" him) and Jenova is never mentioned after they leave the building anyway.
Ok, so Tifa knows he's an asshole that slaughtered her village. I dunno how it's a reasonable jump to go from that to "he'll use fate to destroy the world" cause Aerith said something vague about something she shouldn't know about, and hasn't explained how she knows.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Don't forget Barret just nearly got killed by the guy.

And yeah Tifa definitely knows Sephiroth. Don't you remember he killed her father during the Nibelheim Massacre?

Red XIII knew of Sephiroth and Jenova as well, given his capture by Hojo and the meeting he had with Aerith. Given that Aerith laid out what a threat he was, and they all experienced what he was capable of in the Shinra Building, the stage had been essentially set. And given the Whispers were essentially manifestations of the Lifestream, and Sephiroth was after the planet, I sorta went in knowing he'd eventually end up targeting or manipulating it for his own ends. Sephiroth always tries to absorb the planet and its spirit energy, after all.

Red XIII seems to have gotten most of his knowledge from Aerith (tho who knows cause he never spoke before she "gifted" him) and Jenova is never mentioned after they leave the building anyway.
Ok, so Tifa knows he's an asshole that slaughtered her village. I dunno how it's a reasonable jump to go from that to "he'll use fate to destroy the world" cause Aerith said something vague about something she shouldn't know about, and hasn't explained how she knows.

...Why would they not trust the last Cetra on the planet after experiencing the interjection of the Abriters of Fate themselves, several times? They've seen them first hand, and witnessed them saving them and obstructing them.

Barret would be dead if it wasn't for them. And why would have any reason to doubt Aerith, who they've bonded with and trust as a friend?

Also, Jenova was mentioned. They fought it in the President's office after Sephiroth/Jenova nearly killed Barret and it used it's powers on them.

 

[Interslicery]

And given the Whispers were essentially manifestations of the Lifestream, and Sephiroth was after the planet, I sorta went in knowing he'd eventually end up targeting or manipulating it for his own ends. Sephiroth always tries to absorb the planet and its spirit energy, after all.

I have no idea where people are getting that the whispers were a part of the Lifestream. Please show me where in the game it shows or hints that (aside from the end) cause I must have missed it.

...Why would they not trust the last Cetra on the planet after experiencing the interjection of the Abriters of Fate themselves, several times? They've seen them first hand, and witnessed them saving them and obstructing them.

Barret would be dead if it wasn't for them. And why would have any reason to doubt Aerith, who they've bonded with and trust as a friend?

Because it wasn't set up until the end of the game. All other interactions with the whispers were "that was weird... anyway!", until the end where there's 5 min of vague dialogue to justify the big climax of the game. They act like they've been looking forward to it the entire game.
The climax is about defying fate, something which they've done (without realizing), and accepted fate when it suited them. It doesn't work thematically at all. If fate conspired against them the entire game, then fine. But it's saved their asses almost as much as it's hindered them. It works even less because the last few times they interacted with fate it helped them, which would presumably leave them with a more positive impression of it. Or at least not be as ready to go destroy it.
I mean, hell, once they're in the singularity, they get a vision of RedXIII running with his kids, and they're like "This is what will happen if we fail..". Is what they saw a bad thing?!

Also, Jenova was mentioned. They fought it in the President's office after Sephiroth/Jenova nearly killed Barret and it used it's powers on them.

Like I said, Jenova was never mentioned after they left the building.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have no idea where people are getting that the whispers were a part of the Lifestream. Please show me where in the game it shows or hints that (aside from the end) cause I must have missed it.

Chapter 16, Red XIII says it, outright.

Red XIII: Whispers. Perhaps best described as arbiters of fate. They are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course and ensure they do not. The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion.

Tifa: And you're saying that that flow is somehow...fixed?

Red XIII: Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself.

If fate conspired against them the entire game, then fine. But it's saved their asses almost as much as it's hindered them. It works even less because the last few times they interacted with fate it helped them, which would presumably leave them with a more positive impression of it. Or at least not be as ready to go destroy it.

It helped them because Sephiroth was another force attempting to distort events and twist them to his own ends. So Cloud and the others were to benefit from that imbalance.

I mean, hell, once they're in the singularity, they get a vision of RedXIII running with his kids, and they're like "This is what will happen if we fail..". Is what they saw a bad thing?!

How would Red XIII have any idea of what he saw there, and have a clue that it was a good thing? Think about the context and situation. He sees only himself and no humans running in a barren landscape. For all he knew, it meant humanity had been annhilated. He has no connection or context to how that ending scene plays out like we do.

Like I said, Jenova was never mentioned after they left the building.

Jenova's role was finished. One of Sephiroth's copies escaped with it. Sephiroth was the real threat that was in front of them and needing to be dealt with. And this came after they had barely escaped Shinra and their attempt at essentially killing them. Not sure what other thing they had to say about Jenova at that point given the progression of the situation.

 

[Interslicery]

Chapter 16, Red XIII says it, outright.

Red XIII: Whispers. Perhaps best described as arbiters of fate. They are drawn to those who attempt to alter destiny's course and ensure they do not. The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion.

Tifa: And you're saying that that flow is somehow...fixed?

Red XIII: Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself.

Fair. I never took them as direct extensions of the Lifestream though. Maybe I misheard or just missed it or something, had issues hearing dialogue sometimes.
I think that deserves more than a dropped line or two if it's such required information, though.

It helped them because Sephiroth was another force attempting to distort events and twist them to his own ends. So Cloud and the others were to benefit from that imbalance.

So? It still helped them. Fate was beneficial to them.

How would Red XIII have any idea of what he saw there, and have a clue that it was a good thing? Think about the context and situation. He sees only himself and no humans running in a barren landscape. For all he knew, it meant humanity had been annhilated. He has no connection or context to how that ending scene plays out like we do.

He literally grew up in a canyon with a very small population. Maybe he was just out for a morning run.
Regardless, if he has no connection or context for what doesn't outright show a negative scene, maybe that's not the best motivator for destroying a universal constant.

Jenova's role was finished. One of Sephiroth's copies escaped with it. Sephiroth was the real threat that was in front of them and needing to be dealt with. And this came after they had barely escaped Shinra and their attempt at essentially killing them. Not sure what other thing they had to say about Jenova at that point given the progression of the situation.

You're the one that brought up Red knowing about Jenova in response to me saying that they didn't know much about Sephiroth.

 

[Wol]

The flow of fate is the will of the planet.. proceeds to kill it anyway.

Basically we are like Shinra.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So? It still helped them. Fate was beneficial to them.

And that leads us to Part 2, since Sephiroth now has to do things the other way.

He literally grew up in a canyon with a very small population. Maybe he was just out for a morning run.
Regardless, if he has no connection or context for what doesn't outright show a negative scene, maybe that's not the best motivator for destroying a universal constant.

They were in a fight to prevent a doomed future, so that context and perspective would influence his interpretation of an unknown event he's unfamiliar with.

You're the one that brought up Red knowing about Jenova in response to me saying that they didn't know much about Sephiroth.

Because that was all apart of it . They all bore witness of who he was and the risk he was to the planet.

 

[Interslicery]

Man... I'm so tired of this fucking game... I'm tired of wasting mental energy on this.

Apparently I'm in the minority of people who thinks this ending blows, so whatever. I'm wrong.

 

[AerithLives]

I really didn't want or need all this bullshit Kingdom Hearts-slash-Heisenbergian infinite possible universes stuff cluttering up my tale of eco-terrorists, space aliens and corporate greed. It's not interesting.

I agree.

We should do a lifestream.net poll on this ending. People either seem to absolutely hate it or tolerate it (good enough). I've seen a few people enjoy the ending but they seem to all be teenage Twitter kids with anime profile pictures.

 

[Wol]

Man... I'm so tired of this fucking game... I'm tired of wasting mental energy on this.

Apparently I'm in the minority of people who thinks this ending blows, so whatever. I'm wrong.

Let's keep talking about misplaced plates, Stamp chips and Kingdom Hearts tropes.

Everything I loved about FFVII... oh wait...

 

[youffie]

I think most people absolutely hated it, they're just… too tired to keep talking about it, or they're trying to rationalize their way through it.

I know my brain shuts down every time the ending is discussed in its finer details, which has made these last few pages even harder to follow Not that I feel a particular desire to dwell on it, to be honest.

 

[Wol]

I think most people absolutely hated it, they're just… too tired to keep talking about it, or they're trying to rationalize their way through it.

I know my brain shuts down every time the ending is discussed in its finer details, which has made these last few pages even harder to follow Not that I feel a particular desire to dwell on it, to be honest.

I'm getting the impression most people are ok with it... which baffles me because I've seen stuff being criticised for much less in this franchise.

It helps the game is of great quality until the last portion + being FFVII.

 

[Elisa Maza]

The two Stamps in high resolution. They're both "original".

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251487971427135488

 

[Odysseus]

Wait I thought the 4 star stamp was only in a CG cutscene, why is there a texture for it?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Just because Biggs survived or Jessie might have or Wedge despite everything or Zack or Aerith might have, doesn't mean others won't really die. If people want death so much, they'll probably get it, just not in the way they wished for. Maybe that's what people are scared of?

They might have an even harsher ending planned or at some point come to that decision where most everyone dies and there are minimal survivors. They might follow through on those ideas from the past where a lot more die or roll with the theory everyone dies in the ending except Red XIII, tweaking it some perhaps so maybe two or three others also survive from the main cast but with more losses there and with heavy losses among the supporting cast as well.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Wait I thought the 4 star stamp was only in a CG cutscene, why is there a texture for it?

It wasn't CGI. That was in-game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We should do a lifestream.net poll on this ending. People either seem to absolutely hate it or tolerate it (good enough). I've seen a few people enjoy the ending but they seem to all be teenage Twitter kids with anime profile pictures.

...And how does them being "teenage twitter kids" somehow nullify their opinion or diminish their taste?

That's what amuses me so much about this. You and others that share that skewed perspective, seem completely unaware of the course video game pop culture has moved since the early aughts. You seem to believe that, because a younger gen of players and fans like this game's presentation, it somehow makes it and them inferior. Why? It actually doesn't, and they're just as relevant to the audience of FFVII. The reality is you're simply are not the only audience being entertained to. And the media/fiction landscape has shifted. Tastes across the board have shifted. Paradigms have shifted.

Meta stories like this, with "mind-screw" endings, cross-overs, timelines, and stuff that leave folks guessing are more popular than some would care to believe. You think this all is somehow anomalous? Just like FFVII was a product of it's time back in 1997, this Remake is a product of it's time in 2020. To pretend otherwise and act like it's some disastrous misfire or crash is to close your eyes and ears to the growing and changing audience that's been alongside you this entire time.

It's why I chuckle when people use Kingdom Hearts as a pejorative as well. You do realize that it's also highly beloved, popular, and shares a fandom count equal to Final Fantasy, right? Depending on who you say it to, it may excite them. In fact, that's how a lot of people since 2003 have gotten into Final Fantasy VII. Thanks to that game series, folks want to deride as awful. It's ironic, but reality. Folks can hold their nose up at it, but it's like yelling at... A cloud.

I think most people absolutely hated it, they're just… too tired to keep talking about it, or they're trying to rationalize their way through it.

You can think that, but that's not really true. People silo themselves amongst the fandom spaces that agree with them, however moving outside of that bubble and seeing how others beyond look at it, would show you that they're enjoying the ride. The ambiguity and newness excites them,. It's their experience and entry point into the series, or something that entertains them and intrigues them. Contrary to what you or others may believe, there's a sizable audience of folks who live for this type of meta mind-screw and like the suspense of the unknown. What one may find as a waste of time trying to decode, others find enjoyable and satisfying. It's why ARGs, and post-modern takes of stories and franchises are popular. It's the joy of a new audience's shifting and evolving tastes.

The Stamp chip bag debate, investigation and attempt at deciphering the mysterious ending on social media is the absolute peak of FFVII's newly reborn placement in 2020. It just is. Just like how the Lifestream takes in the previous experiences and memories of the past to newly adapt them and change them for the next life that comes from it.. It's a change, and one can hate it or love it. But it's happening and taking off.

 

[youffie]

You can think that, but that's not really true. People silo themselves amongst the fandom spaces that agree with them, however moving outside of that bubble and seeing how others beyond look at it, would show you that they're enjoying the ride.

I could say the same to you. Why would you assume that I just stay inside my bubble of likeminded people that agree with me?

I'm glad that you and others are enjoying all this stuff. I don't, and I'm not one of the few. That is all.

 

[AerithLives]

...And how does them being "teenage twitter kids" somehow nullify their opinion or diminish their taste?

That's what amuses me so much about this. You and others that share that skewed perspective, seem completely unaware of the course video game pop culture has moved since the early aughts. You seem to believe that, because a younger gen of players and fans like this game's presentation, it somehow makes it and them inferior. Why? It actually doesn't, and they're just as relevant to the audience of FFVII. The reality is you're simply are not the only audience being entertained to. And the media/fiction landscape has shifted. Tastes across the board have shifted. Paradigms have shifted.

Meta stories like this, with "mind-screw" endings, cross-overs, timelines, and stuff that leave folks guessing are more popular than some would care to believe. You think this all is somehow anomalous? Just like FFVII was a product of it's time back in 1997, this Remake is a product of it's time in 2020. To pretend otherwise and act like it's some disastrous misfire or crash is to close your eyes and ears to the growing and changing audience that's been alongside you this entire time.

It's why I chuckle when people use Kingdom Hearts as a pejorative as well. You do realize that it's also highly beloved, popular, and shares a fandom count equal to Final Fantasy, right? Depending on who you say it to, it may excite them. In fact, that's how a lot of people since 2003 have gotten into Final Fantasy VII. Thanks to that game series, folks want to deride as awful. It's ironic, but reality. Folks can hold their nose up at it, but it's like yelling at... A cloud.



You can think that, but that's not really true. People silo themselves amongst the fandom spaces that agree with them, however moving outside of that bubble and seeing how others beyond look at it, would show you that they're enjoying the ride. The ambiguity and newness excites them,. It's their experience and entry point into the series, or something that entertains them and intrigues them. Contrary to what you or others may believe, there's a sizable audience of folks who live for this type of meta mind-screw and like the suspense of the unknown. What one may find as a waste of time trying to decode, others find enjoyable and satisfying. It's why ARGs, and post-modern takes of stories and franchises are popular. It's the joy of a new audience's shifting and evolving tastes.

The age isn't really the problem, the issue is after talking to them for a few minutes, a lot of them haven't even played the original. ?‍

The game being crammed with Kingston Hearts nonsense is obviously a problem because this is supposed to be a modernisation and remake of Final Fantasy 7. ??‍

It seems to me like this was made for new fans rather than the original fans which made this game as popular as it was. I've heard so many friends who've had to endure me banging on about this title for literal decades now pick up the remake to see what the fuss is about, and have been quite stuck by how silly the ending is.

It's just shameless fan service from Sephiroth blah blah blah'ing from start to finish to "Watchmen Of Fate" hovering around for writers who have backed themselves into a corner.

I really hope TheLifeStream.net is brave enough to cover the ending and call it out for what it is. A lot of reviewers are sitting on the fence out of fear of upsetting their audience.

 

[Wol]

The worst argument againts detractors of the ending is:

1. such a purist smh, things change

2. they've never said it was a 1:1 of the original HA!

No, we just wanted plot elements that felt and developed organically in the story. Change is fine, when it makes sense, when it doesnt feel artificial.

But to me it felt forced and convoluted just for the sake of it..

 

[youffie]

Yes, it's becoming annoying that one can't express criticism without being told that they just wanted everything to stay exactly the same. It's really not like that.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Well, if SE wants to create an alternative timeline with Zack as the protagonist and Cloud having died from Mako poisoning... it's their right.

Just not with my money.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I could say the same to you. Why would you assume that I just stay inside my bubble of likeminded people that agree with me?

Because you just declared most people absolutely hated it when they didn't?

That's pretty skewed, there. That's not the case.

And I never said that only a "few" didn't like it, by the way. You were the one that attributed a majority labeling to a side, not me.

The age isn't really the problem, the issue is after talking to them for a few minutes, a lot of them haven't even played the original. ?‍

....And who says they have to play the original?

Are the Turks gonna break down their door, punch them in the eye, and lay a copy of the PSone classic or a voucher so that they may download it off Steam, or else?

What does it matter if or when they play the OG? That's their choice and their own personal way of enjoying it.

The game being crammed with Kingston Hearts nonsense is obviously a problem because this is supposed to be a modernisation and remake of Final Fantasy 7. ??‍

Ahh, but did the writers ever even say it was a simple modernization of the OG, 1:1? I'm pretty sure they did not. They did take great pains to capture almost all of the moments but they were quite honest in their Youtube documentary series that there would be changes.

Tetsuya Nomura even warned those who thought they knew how it would end, they should probably think again.

It seems to me like this was made for new fans rather than the original fans which made this game as popular as it was. I've heard so many friends who've had to endure me banging on about this title for literal decades now pick up the remake to see what the fuss is about, and have been quite stuck by how silly the ending is.

And if it was (and it wasn't fyi) so what? The writers didn't lie to you. You were not owed this Remake. It presented itself as is, and let the chips fall where they may. Just like they did in 97. No one was expectant or dictating how it was to be either.

But even back then, I remember those who were from the classic Nintendo era being bothered and upset at the transition to Sony and the loss of SNES sprites. Change is inevitable.

It's just shameless fan service from Sephiroth blah blah blah'ing from start to finish to "Watchmen Of Fate" hovering around for writers who have backed themselves into a corner.

I really hope TheLifeStream.net is brave enough to cover the ending and call it out for what it is. A lot of reviewers are sitting on the fence out of fear of upsetting their audience.

You can call it fan service all you want, but at what point does one stop and realize that it's by design at this point? That's who he is. That's who he's gonna be. That's the present reality and what has resonated.

Imagine someone from 1956 complaining about the Joker being so serious, homicidal and chaotically evil, because from what they remembered, he was a campy, clownish, jovial villain who would never try to infect an entire orphanage with Joker toxin to "Jokerize" the children and make them feral hell beasts capable of murdering their families. Times change, as do adaptions and depictions.

...LOL or consider the following. The reviewers just said how they felt.

 

[Claymore]

I'm not a 'teenage twitter kid' and I absolutely loved the ending, loved that it keeps the original, loved that it turns this into a sequel / prequel retred of a branching timeline / AU / whatever, and I absolutely can't wait to see what comes next - both familiar and different.

So ... *shrugs*

 

[Odysseus]

I don't think I'll really be able to judge the ending until I know its full ramifications. Some things have me extremely happy and excited, some things have me a little concerned. We'll see I guess.