SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Dark and Divine]

After impaling him, Sephiroth should have lifted President Shinra up in the air and then throw him against one of the columns in the room.

That would be both brutal and hilarious

 

[Kain424]

Gross. But I agree.

 

[Wol]

After impaling him, Sephiroth should have lifted President Shinra up in the air and then throw him against one of the columns in the room.

That would be both brutal and hilarious

while smoking one of his cigarettes.

 

[LNK]

I really liked Barret's dialog in this chapter. His "man of modest dreams" bit and that "Talk to me again like you know me" line were great. Bentley kills it as Barret. Only wish we'd got to spend more time with Red XIII so I could get to know his Remake characterization better as well.

Yeah, I was hesitent on how Barret would be portrayed in the remake. He is definitely my favorite character so far

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Yeah I'm starting to see why people were pushing for an M rating back before it was announced

An M rating is great for older fans sure, but this game is special to so many people because "it was their childhood," or something to that effect. I think some alien goo and smoky stabbings isn't too bad a price to pay for giving kids nowadays a chance to let this world become their childhood too.

 

[Odysseus]

I agree, though I think some of the impact was lost during scenes like Biggs and Jessie's deaths er... "deaths" and the trail of blood wasn't nearly as ominous. I think its important this game that the game can reach a wider audience though.

 

[ForceStealer]

Part of me was yelling at Barret to stop him from getting to his desk, but the dialogue exchange was fantastic.

(Barret's complete discarding of stealth at hte beginning of the infiltration was annoying me too, so this was a nice comeback. And I still feel it was intentional, Cloud captured my feelings, "Why did we bring you along again?" )

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith discusses what the sky means to her during the church escape rooftop segment. She loved the steel sky - i.e the plate - because it protected her a little from hearing all the thoughts, feelings and dreams of all the people in the slums. Whether that meant the literal people, or their spirits in the lifestream, is uncertain, but the main point was that her innate empathy simply couldn't cope with the wide open sky. The very thought terrifies her and is why she never attempted to leave Midgar.

So right at the end, you see just how afraid she is, not just of the unknown, but of the wide open sky which means that it is all going to come flooding into her. It is why she immediately says she misses the steel sky after 'experiencing' that memory of Zack.*

Yeah, "I miss the steel sky" or "I hate the [real] sky" conveys the same thought.

The creators have already said this is a remake, and what we got in the game was just that. Its a retelling of their original story.
Fans that never played the OG, do not need to play it to understand what is going on. You only think they do, because you assume this is a sequel

I realize the conversation has (blessedly) moved on, but I'm going to be momentarily obstinate and say I take issue with this comment. I don't think anyone assumed this game was going to be a maybe-sequel. A number of folks have reasonably inferred/deduced that it could be from the content of the game, but assumed? Let's not be absurd.

Ehhh idk. They implied we would get a remake that followed the main story points of the OG. Which even with chapter 18, we got that

I guess they both have a shot of the end of the highway.

Alright, time for Aerith speculation:

I think she knew of the story because she saw it on the leaking pipe in the beginning. She saw the OG.

So, she's been trying to convince others to change fate, even though it brought her something scary: uncertainty. Sure, she has hope that she'll live now, but nothing is a guarantee either. She spoke as if she was dead to Cloud in the dream, because she expected to die.

She knew about Zack dying. She is trying to move on. But, she's still hurting; Zack's death is recent. Probably she knew that he was coming to Midgar. If not, fate showed him outside of Midgar to her anyway. She has a push-pull with her memory of Zack; trying to move on and missing him at the same time.

Nojima said that she values freedom and being alive, so that's what she did. She urged them to kill Fate, giving her a chance to live, but it also gave Sephiroth his chance to win. She's embarking onto a journey to keep herself alive while also defeating Sephiroth.

Perhaps she's not so much trying to prevent her own death as those of all the people caused by Meteor and Geostigma?

I would have thought the video game industry is one on which the recession will have the least impact. Unemployed people on benefits need something interesting to do. Video games are relatively cheap entertainment. I paid 100 euros for my FFVIIRemake. Divide that by the amount of playing time I'm going to get out of it, and it has cost me about a euro an hour, or less.

At the moment, yes, but it's really going to depend on how long the recession lasts and how reaching its ramifications become. Video games purchases are likely the first to go when you have to start cutting non-essentials.

Still don't understand what they were going with that. And is Wedge supposed to be alive? Thought he died at the Shinra Building when the "Whispers" kinda whisked him away, and then Biggs took his position in Elmyra's house?

Biggs is at the orphanage in Sector 5.

 

[LNK]

I agree, though I think some of the impact was lost during scenes like Biggs and Jessie's deaths er... "deaths" and the trail of blood wasn't nearly as ominous. I think its important this game that the game can reach a wider audience though.

Which I think it will. Especially if we look at how gaming has evolved since then.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't even think ratings are the primary motivation considering the game did get a higher rating than your average FF game in a lot of the major markets including Japan.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Perhaps she's not so much trying to prevent her own death as those of all the people caused by Meteor and Geostigma?

...and let all those people die in the platefall. How selective of her.

Nojima, in the "Behind the Scenes" documentary said that Aerith "values being alive" (along with freedom). So.

Also, Geostigma can still happen because Sephiroth is inside the Lifestream at the time of the Remake, but it cannot be healed without her dead, too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...and let all those people die in the platefall. How selective of her.

Wait how is she letting people die in a plate fall?

Also, Geostigma can still happen because Sephiroth is inside the Lifestream at the time of the Remake, but it cannot be healed without her dead, too.

Sephiroth's not in the Lifestream the same way he is in Advent Children. Sephiroth in FFVII is alive. He essentially came back to life by reforming his physical body thanks to Jenova cells, and is in the Lifestream, using its power to continue to grow stronger.

In Advent Children, he was a spirit. He had no physical form and was essentially a vengeful ghost who laid a planetary curse upon humanity. Via disease.

 

[Kain424]

Wait how is she letting people die in a plate fall?

She's not. She's literally doing all she can to prevent it.

 

[Master Bates]

Biggs is at the orphanage in Sector 5.

I see. Just further proof of my confusion.

 

[LNK]

@The Twilight Mexican

"I realize the conversation has (blessedly) moved on, but I'm going to be momentarily obstinate and say I take issue with this comment. I don't think anyone assumed this game was going to be a maybe-sequel. A number of folks have reasonably inferred/deduced that it could be, but assumed? Let's not be absurd."

My mistake. Wrong use of words

"I guess they both have a shot of the end of the highway, if that's what you mean."

No that's not what I mean. Even if things were shown differently, we still got all the main story points from the OG. If that's wrong, I'm totally open to being corrected

 

[oty]

I don't even think ratings are the primary motivation considering the game did get a higher rating than your average FF game in a lot of the major markets including Japan.

Yeah, but thats the point. Even by "censoring" a lot of the original, it still got into a "high" rating than other FF. The executives probably didnt want to push the edge any more than that. They like that sweet T-Rated money

 

[Elisa Maza]

Wait how is she letting people die in a plate fall?

It circles back to my theory that Aerith wanted the same as Sephiroth; to defeat the Fate (can I just call them this?) so that she has a chance to live. It's a gamble now, but she has a chance. Problem is, Sephy has a chance, too. If she was aware of it and there was a chance to... change/kill/whatever the fuck else, why not do it sooner and give a chance for the Platefall to be stopped?

(yeah, yeah, I know, devs wanted the Midgar portion to be similar and then change stuff, blah, blah... I'm just pointing out how her words of "change Fate" in the late chapters and her bizarre behaviour at times throughout the game point to her knowing stuff and especially that she was going to die -her speech in the dream sequence yell "I'm dead/I know I'll die" with a megaphone in a microphone- and she was shocked at Corneo's words. So, either she didn't know about the platefall exactly, but knew about Sephiroth and her death because Ancients, or she knew and didn't prioritize it.

Again, yeah, yeah, I know, devs wanted the finale of the game to be "Fate dies" or sth to have an excuse to change shit in next part and dear God this is so stupid and wow, unfortunate implications rise why does this Fate thing happened Christ)

Sephiroth's not in the Lifestream the same way he is in Advent Children. Sephiroth in FFVII is alive. He essentially came back to life by reforming his physical body thanks to Jenova cells, and is in the Lifestream, using its power to continue to grow stronger.

In Advent Children, he was a spirit. He had no physical form and was essentially a vengeful ghost who laid a planetary curse upon humanity. Via disease.

Defeating Sephiroth while Aerith is still alive (I assume that this is what she wants) still makes Geostigma happen while it also prevents it from being healed. So no, I don't think that she has thought that far. Or, has seen that far. Her face bookened the OG, after all. What I'm saying is that she doesn't want the OG to play as it did (how meta), because it's a bad thing for her. She's very aware of a lot of stuff.

 

[Theozilla]

I don’t think anyone is arguing against expanding and elaborating. I tried to go through the game asking myself “if this was a hidden secret in the original game would I be thrilled?” You can compare the expanded trio stuff to the Radagast stuff, because it plausibly takes place within the fiction, you know, the thing we bought the ticket for.

But Chapters 16-18... what the fuck was that? You can’t call that FFVII, it didn’t even resemble the structure of the original sequence.

I mean you can feel however you want about the quality of the additions (plenty of people disliked the added Legolas love triangle additions in the The Hobbit movies, and/or thought the hypnotizing Smaug with a giant molten gold statue was stupid, etc.) but IMO the additions in the Remake (even the Whispers) are something I can definitely see existing in FFVII. Now it was definitely messily done/implemented, especially the last one or two chapters, but it didn't bring down the quality of my enjoyment of the Remake. As I definitely like the Remake more than the equivalent Midgar sections of the OG.

Yeah, but thats the point. Even by "censoring" a lot of the original, it still got into a "high" rating than other FF. The executives probably didnt want to push the edge any more than that. They like that sweet T-Rated money

Yeah, the OG only gets a T rating in the U.S.A. now because the blocky graphics "soften"/mask the graphicness of the depicted content.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yeah, but thats the point. Even by "censoring" a lot of the original, it still got into a "high" rating than other FF. The executives probably didnt want to push the edge any more than that. They like that sweet T-Rated money

The thing is that it's still on the very low end of those 16+ ratings. They could've gotten away with way more since they are already playing in that age rating now anyway.
Also, why would getting an M rating in the US matter more than the higher ratings in their biggest market, Japan? As well, the belief that higher ratings=lower sales seems more of a myth that is perpetuated in the movie industry. The latter has never caught on in the games industry though considering M/16+/18+ rated games that are the equivalent of a big budget "blockbusters" that sell very well are still being routinely put out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Aerith carries future "awareness" or "knowledge" of the future, it doesn't have to be a complete, contextual awareness. Pre-cognition rarely is ever played as such. Just like the glimpses of the future we see throughout the game, they're flashes of the future. Without context, sound, or understanding. Aerith certainly doesn't seem as aware as Sephiroth nor does she seem even to hold a rudimentary "plan." She knows Sephiroth is "wrong" and an incredibly dangerous threat. She carries subtle familiarity with certain people. It's nothing specific or goal oriented.

It's why I think it's more likely residual memories.

Defeating Sephiroth while Aerith is still alive (I assume that this is what she wants) still makes Geostigma happen while it also prevents it from being healed. So no, I don't think that she has thought that far. Or, has seen that far. Her face bookened the OG, after all. What I'm saying is that she doesn't want the OG to play as it did (how meta), because it's a bad thing for her. She's very aware of a lot of stuff.

I don't think she knows that future though. I don't think she carries any tangible, specific knowledge of specific future events. She only is aware of certain things, like fleeting moments of clarity or deja vu. The only thing that made her want to oppose "fate" was because Sephiroth was taking control of it. He was going to make it all disappear, and lead the planet to a doomed future. Thats what they all beleived. She certainly had no memory or awareness of events past her supposed death.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, I think Aerith has general sense of something bad and big is coming in the future, but I don't think she has much specific understanding/precise knowledge of the future. The flower conversation in Chapter 8 you get after you complete all the sidequests, hints at the Planet trying to communicate/warn Aerith about upcoming bad things, but she doesn't understand it well and only has vague comprehension of what the planet is trying to say.

The thing is that it's still on the very low end of those 16+ ratings. They could've gotten away with way more since they are already playing in that age rating now anyway.
Also, why would getting an M rating in the US matter more than the higher ratings in their biggest market, Japan? As well, the belief that higher ratings=lower sales seems more of a myth that is perpetuated in the movie industry. The latter has never caught on in the games industry though considering M/16+/18+ rated games that are the equivalent of a big budget "blockbusters" that sell very well are still being routinely put out.

The U.S.A. is a hugely important market to SE, and didn't FFXV sell more in the U.S. than it did in Japan IIRC? So it's arguably a bigger market than Japan currently for SE.

 

[Kain424]

What I'm saying is that she doesn't want the OG to play as it did (how meta), because it's a bad thing for her. She's very aware of a lot of stuff.

I just don't see any of this as a thing. She has a level of situational awareness, and an understanding of what the Whispers are, but nothing super concrete. She doesn't know her fate. She outright calls the future a "blank page."

 

[Tetsujin]

The U.S.A. is a hugely important market to SE, and didn't FFXV sell more in the U.S. than it did in Japan IIRC? So it's arguably a bigger market than Japan currently for SE.

Too lazy to look this up in detail, what I could find is it sold more in the west but US and Europe were grouped together in their official sales thingy.
However that would still leave us with the point that a) M ratings don't seem to hinder the video game industry from selling boatloads of copies regardless and b) that T-rated games can and have gotten away with more than what we see in Remake

So I still think Square could've absolutely gotten away with more even within the US T rating

Like, the Uncharted series lets me shoot hundreds of people in the face and still get a T but this game can't have a trail of actual blood? The impalement might have been pushing it maybe but blue goo on the floor is just...lame.

That being said, I'll take the smoke during the impalement over no effect at all. In Crisis Core they just had the sword sort of clip through Cloud and that's even dumber looking

 

[Theozilla]

M ratings in the U.S. may not automatically hinder sales but I still think they are a risk a company like SE wouldn’t want to take, especially with something sold under its FF line (isn’t Type-0 like the only rated M FF game?).
As for how much they could have pushed the T rating, I don’t know, but it doesn’t surprise me that SE erred on the conservative side as IIRC they said during development they were aiming for a T rating.

 

[Kain424]

Totally possible they just didn't want to have a bloody scene, too.