SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

So since the Ultimania confirms the "Rubrum/Kadaj - Viridi/Loz - Croceo/Yazoo" theory, yet the whispers are not acting in accordance to Sephiroth's will, I'm going to assume that Sephiroth's remnants were absorbed by the Harbinger of Fate, ergo why they no longer follow Sephiroth's command. They have become remnants of remnants.

Because I don't want to imagine that the Whispers have been around forever, guiding every event since the planet's birth, I much prefer the notion that the inciting incident for all this timey wimey-ness was Sephiroth's defeat in Advent Children.

AC Sephiroth, in all his uniqueness and defiance towards becoming just a memory, achieved the impossible: He cut a hole through spacetime. AC Sephiroth travelled through this hole, bringing along his remnants Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, and successfully stepped outside the boundaries of time. This effect rippled through past, present and future.

The planet's defenses against time-breakage were limited. The Time Guardian, familiar from the Temple of the Ancients, was one of few entities to observe this event. From being a singular-timeline planet, the Time Guardian observed how the planet's history shattered into millions of fragments. As a guardian, their role was to ensure the consistency of time: A singular timeline. That is their axiomatic purpose, whether a multi-timeline be catastrophical or not. So the Time Guardian created the Whispers: Entities that would travel across these millions of new timelines, correcting events and trying to weave everything back into a singular timeline, turning the shattered mirror into just the one mirror.

The process was not perfect and inconsistencies remained, like the design of Stamp the dog, due to the timelines still not coalescing into the one. The Whispers also attacked AC Sephiroth and his remnants. They were successful in taking control over the remnants, turning Kadaj into Whisper Rubrum, Loz into Whisper Viridi and Yazoo into Whisper Croceo. AC Sephiroth escaped, or was too powerful to be subdued, and his exact plans remain unclear. Having upgraded from a traveller of the lifestream to a traveller through time, AC Sephiroth now has more cosmic knowledge than ever before. Just as Sephiroth had used Cloud as a "core" to remain alive in the lifestream after the events of OG, Sephiroth now re-employs Cloud as a constant to give himself purpose in this cosmic, chaotic, multi-timeline mess.

With the Whispers defeated at the end of FFVIIR Part 1, and the ensuing explosion happening simultaneously throughout every timeline, the planet's multiverse status will worsen, until paradoxes occur, timelines/planet-verses dissolved and ultimately the planet is erased from history. Just like spirits dissolve in the lifestream, so too will time dissolve into the greater cosmos and nothing will be left of what was, is or would be.

Whether this could affect the entire universe or just the planet is unclear. Though IF the events of FFVIIR jeopardizes the existence of the entire universe, then the erroneous promotional tagline from the PAL box of the original FFVII will finally have become real.

"Cloud Strife a cold-hearted mercenary, accepts a mission from a group of eco-warriors, unaware that it will lead him on a journey that will change not just his life, but the lives of every soul in the universe...."​


The only way to solve this time crisis is via the ultimate deus ex machina: Holy. The only magic that can erase Weapon, Meteor, humanity all in one fell swoop is also the only magic that can reunite all the planet's time shards into ONE. Aerith will be praying at the altar not just for the eventuality of Meteor being summoned, but for the historical existence of the planet itself.


Most everything will play out the same as the original game, only with all this needless fluff added. Though one crucial thing may end up different. Because AC Sephiroth (now fully merged with his non-time-travelling self/selves) will end up defeated outside the bounds of time, at the edge of creation, there won't even be any planet for Sephiroth's spirit to return to and defiantly carry his will. He will truly, and ultimately, be defeated just before Meteorfall, same as we originally thought that he was after the original game. Geostigma will not happen. Sephiroth will not return. This, in my opinion, is a way to make the ending feel satisfactory. When you know that people are going to fall down dead from Geostigma for a period of two years after the original game, your sense of victory is lessened. With the FFVIIR series, we might prevent Geostigma from ever even happening.

The final, coalesced timeline, with all its victories and tragedies that this entails, will mean the ultimate end of Sephiroth (and by all likelihood, Jenova).

I'll admit. It feels like forever since I indulged in this type of post.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I feel like it’s just simpler to assume that the Remnants fight for the Planet now since at the end of AC/C they got accepted/purified by Aerith (plus Kadaj started calling her mother) and aren’t beholden to the corrupted Lifestream anymore. Thus the Planet/Whispers can draw upon their essences throughout time, and make Whispers out of them.
I just personally don’t see Nomura and Nojima making AC/C not canon/not follow after the Remake finishes.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
Well, I finished the game. The credits are flowing now. I'm listening to the music.

I do not know what to say. I have thoughts, but they're a lot, not sure if I can put them all down.

As said in the Frustrations thread, Chapter 17 + 18 Aerith was too overpowered, with her omniscience and powers. Also, Motor Ball was a pain in the (hands) ass!

That said, overall, I liked the game.

I can't really say much because, honestly - I don't know! You got me, with the Whispers and fate stuff.

I wonder if history is somehow looping and distorted because of Sephiroth (maybe time travel - which actually I was against, but it seems plausible, and done nicely, here, in my opinion). In that, I wonder if Aerith can sense this distortion and that's why she's kind of omniscient...

The visions, I think, are of what should happen. I think Cloud may have been able to sense this distortion, too.

I don't know what to think of Wedge's possible death. I say possible because the screen goes black, we only here the sound of glass. That said, his words are pretty Final. I wonder if the Whispers weren't really pushing him so much as it was a consequence of their actions.

Zack's a mystery. I can't believe, if he's alive, that he wouldn't have gone to Aerith ASAP. In that, I think he's dead, but it also seems like there's supposed to be mystery there. I don't know. I have no real thoughts on him.

Jessie could be alive. Again, not sure. I mean, Biggs is alive. He was at death's door as much as the other two, so...

I am very interested in where this is going. Looking forward to the next installment. I want to see this through.

Though, I hope SE does some sort of data transfer, that we can bring over our materia, items and such. Then again, and I think this is the route they'll take, each installment is it's own game. That's fine, too.

And so yeah, this is a good bit about what I think. For those who care...

EDIT: I just read about the Whispers and Kadaj/Yazoo/Loz theory, and now I further don't know what to think. Fighting destiny, but that destiny is to defeat Sephiroth, that's the original Destiny... Why fight the path that will stop Sephiroth? Ugh, I have no clue.
 
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I am super-late to noticing this, but the order in which party members arrive to join Cloud in the battle against Sephiroth can differ. Follow the time stamps in the video urls in case you aren't automatically taken there.

Phase 2 variations
- Tifa comes to the rescue
- Aerith comes to the rescue

Phase 3 variations
- Barret joins (following Tifa)
- Tifa joins (following Aerith)

Battle is over
- Aerith and Red XIII arrive
- Barret and Red XIII arrive


I do not know how many variations exist. I'll leave it to somebody else to find the rest, including to check if the same mechanics apply to the battle against the Whisper Harbinger. :monster:

Looking forward to the Ultimania confirming what the variables are behind which party members joins you and when.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
I was in a stream 2 days ago where the chat was coming up with 100 reasons things go the way they go, because the dude streaming (speedrunning) said they're still not 100% sure what triggers the different set ups. Someone said whoever lands the final damage on Harbinger joins Cloud first. For me that was true; Tifa delivered the final blow and I got her. This dude also claimed Barret is harder to get, though I'm not sure why he would be.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
@Tres That is my headscratch... why would he not be able to? Unless they scripted it as so of course :monster:
But according to this dude you can get Barret too.
Edit: Yep guess you can
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Interesting post, Shademp. I didn't even really consider that the time stuff would still play an important role in future parts. My thought finishing the game was that, with the Whispers defeated at the end of Part 1, the timeline stuff is over and things will proceed without all that, but what actually happens may be drastically different from the OG. I think I would prefer my initial impression over a continuing emphasis on the time and destiny stuff, but it wouldn't surprise me if that continues to be a big element.

I have some more thoughts below.

I took some time after first completing the game to contemplate the ending, and perusing some of the comments here, which have made me feel better about everything. I have now been playing through the game again on hard mode, and, man, do I really love this game up to the ending. I just stopped last night right before fighting Rufus, and plan on playing that section to the end today (and experiencing the ending for a second time). I am clinging on to hope that the major story beats are still going to happen in the subsequent parts. In Part 1, the general plot stays very true to the original for the most part, and, IMO, 95% of the additions or changes work. If this is how they are going to treat subsequent parts, with the whole Whispers/time thing being simply a side aspect, I will be okay with that. Would I prefer the game didn't have the Whispers and stuff? Yes. I don't love that Sephiroth and Aerith seem to know way more than they did in the original either (and the possibility this is Sephiroth from AC or something), but there are hints in the OG that Sephiroth and Aerith know more than they ever tell you. So, if they still handle the Remake with care, I think I can let that stuff slide.

For Part 2, with how much traveling around the world there is after leaving Midgar and up to the Temple of the Ancients, there is plenty of stuff they can add or even change that I think won't feel too jarring. Give us the Kalm flashback, Junon, Corel and the Gold Saucer, Cosmo Canyon, Nibelheim, Rocket Town, and Wutai. Give us those iconic scenes where we get to know our party and are chasing after Sephiroth, and add new stuff in between. I would be totally happy with that. Basically, I am hoping Part 2 is like Mass Effect 2, where there is a lot of world building and recruiting your team, seeing their personal struggles, etc., sprinkled with sections that remind us of the end goal (encountering Sephiroth periodically).

Honestly, I would prefer they treat the rest of the Remake the same way they treated Part 1, minus the meta-commentary and abstract destiny concepts. Feel free to change stuff, especially if it adds great world building and character motivations/development (a la Chapter 4 of Part 1), but don't forget that the original story beats are iconic and already tell a fantastic story. The original story is already full of crazy stuff like cosmic gods/aliens, clones/mutations, forgotten identities, a sentient planet, etc. It is a triumph that all the stuff from the original game actually works and makes sense in-universe. We don't really need convoluted time travel shenanigans thrown on top to derail that triumph of the original.

But, of course, we are all in the same boat of having to wait awhile to see what exactly the message of the Part 1 ending will really mean for the rest of the story, which is definitely a slightly agonizing prospect.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
when i saw those three big (but not as big as the giant one) monsters, it reminded me of the last boss of ffxiii-2. which also lead into a battle with the main antagonist

then i saw the credits and was like, toriyamaaaa you did it again

Not quite the same colors though. :monster:

We got Red, Yellow, and Green instead of Red, Yellow and Black xD
 
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