SPOILERS FFVII Remake Frustration Expression Thread (*Open Spoilers*)

[ExampleZ]

I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point but the remake has severe pacing problems. I know that's to be expected since it's taking a 5 hour portion of the original story and stretching it to over 30 hours, but there are certain parts of the game that long overstay their welcome and even clash horribly with the plot in doing so. A prime example is the train graveyard, which grinds the story to a halt and removes any sense of urgency or tension from the fact that you're supposed to be rushing to save everyone in Sector 7 from dying by forcing you to play around with ghost children for over an hour. This really annoyed the shit out of me in my initial playthrough and I really dread having to suffer through that again if I ever replay the game. I wasn't a fan of being forced to backtrack through the sewers over and over and over again either.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree. I didn't enjoy the train graveyard segment in the Remake nearly as much as in the OG. I don't understand what it was meant to convey, and I don't know why Marlene was in there. That said, it's a beloved part of the OG, and theoretically has a lot of potential, so I can see why they wanted to expand it during a section of the plot where Cloud, Tifa and Aerith were together. I don't understand the role of ghosts in their world either. How can there can be ghosts when people's spirit energy returns to the planet when they die? If there is some force keeping people's spirit energy trapped, preventing them from returning to the planet, that's probably a crucial plot point and could and should have been explored in more detail.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ghosts have always existed in FFVII. From.. the train graveyard to the Cave of the Gi.

Spirit energy simply doesn't always return to the planet. And when it doesn't return to the planet, it becomes trapped. Like stagnant air. The dead children who were lost in the train graveyard became ghosts. They were trapped in that space and made into malevolent spirits by Eligor, who used them to feed on the fear and terror of anyone unfortunate enough end up lost there. And they too would be killed and become ghosts, creating a never ending cycle. Aerith nearly got killed there thanks to it feeding off of her fear by manipulating and exploiting her childhood memories.

Marlene was seen because the closer they all got to Eligor, the more their fears and memories became manipulated by it. That was Tifa's manifested shade of fear and unease. Cloud, Tifa and Aerith were rushing to get through the train graveyard, they just were obstructed by otherworldly forces. Forces that hint at the metaphysics of spirits and what happens when souls don't get to pass on in peace. Gonna be interesting to see how the Cave of the Gi now that we have a prelude to how they'll showcase spirits in the Remake.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Then you'd assume that President Shinra would become a ghost, and that Sector 7 post-platefall would be infested with ghosts. They can hardly have passed on in peace!
It's the inconsistency that bothers me.
Eligor sounds like some kind of sub-Sephiroth, able to read minds, conjure illusions, and manipulate fears.
Mako, is this from the ultimania, or is it your own deduction?
I tended to assume that the 'ghosts' in the OG were simply a form of monster that they called 'ghosts' as opposed to the lingering spirits of the dead.
Anyway, if it really is the case that the spirits of the dead can linger in the world if they don't pass in peace, I hope Bugenhagen explains that in his orrery lecture and ties it in to the Caves of the Gi. It'll be nice to find out what manner of creature the Gi were.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's from the game itself

You do read those bestiary entries, right?

No, the ghosts are literal ghosts. The Gi Spectres of the Gi Cave are ghosts too. Bugenhagen did technically already explain this phenomenon when Cloud and the others explored the cave with him in the OG. Simply put, not all spirits pass on to the Lifestream. Powerful wills with lingering regrets, unfinished business, etc sometimes are able to simply refuse to pass on.

They're for lack of a better word, unsent.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is that why The Maiden who travels the planet (Lifestream black and white) isn't canon?

I honestly thought the whole Gi cave sequence was a bit of a bore and not well written. It's one of my least favourite parts of the OG.
I don't even know what this means:

Bugenhagen
As you can see, this cave leads to the back of Cosmo Canyon. It was unfortunate that the Gi were larger than us. If they attacked through here, we wouldn't have stood a chance.

Aren't they precisely where the Gi ghosts linger? Didn't the Gi attack through the very place Bugenhagen is saying they didn't attack? And what does "they were larger than us" mean? Physically bigger, or more numerous? And what were the Gi? A tribe of humans, or some other creature?

I do hope all this gets cleared up in the next installment.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Maiden isn't canon because it was written by a guest author who's work was subsequently retconned and Lifestream White and Black are canon. That has nothing to really do with it.

I think Bugenhagen was referring to the number of Gi tribe members. And yes, they were humans, or at least, humanoid. They were an antagonistic tribe that wished to attack and destroy Cosmo Canyon, and Seto was petrified defeating them all and sealing them away in that cave that led to Cosmo Canyon's center. It was apparently something that happened within Bugenhagen's lifetime since he was there for it.

 

[Saven]

I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point but the remake has severe pacing problems. I know that's to be expected since it's taking a 5 hour portion of the original story and stretching it to over 30 hours, but there are certain parts of the game that long overstay their welcome and even clash horribly with the plot in doing so. A prime example is the train graveyard, which grinds the story to a halt and removes any sense of urgency or tension from the fact that you're supposed to be rushing to save everyone in Sector 7 from dying by forcing you to play around with ghost children for over an hour. This really annoyed the shit out of me in my initial playthrough and I really dread having to suffer through that again if I ever replay the game. I wasn't a fan of being forced to backtrack through the sewers over and over and over again either.

Pacing has definitely been more apparent on my second playthrough on Hard. I felt this the first time, but the game begins to slow down considerably around Chapter 4 - 7. I couldn't wait to crash into the church at the end of the Mako Reactor 5 bombing and I can't wait to do it again (saved outside of Airbuster atm).

 

[Odysseus]

Maiden isn't canon because it was written by a guest author who's work was subsequently retconned and Lifestream White and Black are canon. That has nothing to really do with it.

The "FFVII and canon" article @The Twilight Mexican wrote 10,000 years ago goes into painful detail about how Maiden is compatible with the compilation along with Lifestream White & Black, so I've been assuming it's in a bit of a grey zone canon-wise. Not that it matters that much.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's definitely compatible, but since incompatibility has never been a point of disqualification in the Compilation, who knows whether that actually matters. XD

 

[crazyrabbits23]

I agree. I didn't enjoy the train graveyard segment in the Remake nearly as much as in the OG. I don't understand what it was meant to convey, and I don't know why Marlene was in there. That said, it's a beloved part of the OG, and theoretically has a lot of potential, so I can see why they wanted to expand it during a section of the plot where Cloud, Tifa and Aerith were together. I don't understand the role of ghosts in their world either. How can there can be ghosts when people's spirit energy returns to the planet when they die? If there is some force keeping people's spirit energy trapped, preventing them from returning to the planet, that's probably a crucial plot point and could and should have been explored in more detail.

Is it?

The OG graveyard was three screens, if that. If you know what you're doing, you can get through it in five minutes or less. The only value it ever had to me was a farming spot to grind in before the pillar.

I think it could be interesting if the role of ghosts/spirits in the VII universe could be developed in future games, but stopping the plot nearly dead in its tracks so that the trio could go traipsing around a graveyard and discover the mystery of the missing kids (even though it was foreshadowed well earlier) was a bit too much, IMO.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@LicoriceAllsorts At least three of the Whispers are linked to people who don't exist yet... and may never end up existing. The bestiary entries link the Whispers up to beings who are from a future and who want that future to still happen. Which is the reasoning given for why the Whispers want the OG events to still happen. They want to exist in the future still, and by having different events from the OG happen, the beings those Whipers would become will never exist.

So at this point... I think the best guess is that the Whispers are like... pre-ghosts. Instead of beings that stuck around after death, they are beings who are existing before being born properly. Maybe because the Lifestream energy that went into making them in the future is already around?

But yeah, the plot needs to confirm what the Whispers are, preferably sooner rather than later before people can really decide how they feel about them. Or if the plot was really improved by adding them.

 

[oty]

I don't necessarily think that the Whispers need to have an "entry data" explaining what they are, or their nature. We know that their intent is a mystery for the next installments, and maybe that will shed some light on what they are, but I would be completely okay if they keep that for continuous theorisation and such.

Now for the pacing, I completely agree. This game has some pretty big hiccups om that aspect. And it becomes very apparent on subsequent playthroughs. Thankfully, pacing isn't a big deal for me, or else I would probably have a problem with the original aswell.

 

[Clement Rage]

As you can see, this cave leads to the back of Cosmo Canyon. It was unfortunate that the Gi were larger than us. If they attacked through here, we wouldn't have stood a chance.

Seems easy enough. The Gi were attacking the front of Cosmo Canyon, which was fortified. If they also got in through the back, they Canyonites couldn't hold them off, but Seto headed them off at the entrance to the tunnel. That's also why Red thought he was a coward, presumably he was fighting, and then remembered 'crap, secret tunnel' and apparently ran away from the defenses out front to defend the tunnel.

I hope we don't find out more, makes for a more credible world when we don't get every detail of the , somehistory.

Red is 48, and it happened when he was young or else not born yet, so unless Red XIII species are pregnant for like 50 years, this happened probably somewhere between 30-50 years before the OG?

I already outlined my frustrations in various other threads, so I can't really say much here. I agree that the train graveyard took too long, but it didn't really start to bother me until Shinra HQ.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But then that means that the Gi did attack through there, and were defeated, not that they didnt attack through there.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm hoping the whole "Gi tribe attack" plot gets a major overhaul, it feels very at odds with the rest of the game as-is. I always thought Red's backstory was clunky though. Why didn't Buhgenhaggen tell him about his father, anyway?

 

[kathy202]

But yeah, the plot needs to confirm what the Whispers are, preferably sooner rather than later before people can really decide how they feel about them. Or if the plot was really improved by adding them.

If they're going to confirm it in subsequent parts, I hope they give a really good explanation. If not, I'd prefer it if the Whispers are never brought up again. Ever. It'd be weird to leave the whole thing hanging of course, but personally, I'll be happy to erase those things from my memory.

Pacing wasn't great, but it only started bugging me in the drum. I think the dialog and good boss fights helped to make up for a lot in the earlier parts.

Also, this is going to sound incredibly dumb and I'm sure it's just me, but the part in the train graveyard where the party overhears the Turks through a pile of scrapped technology bugs the crap out of me everytime. You'd think Shinra encrypted their communications channel. Yeah, there's a ton more silly things going on I know, but I just had to get this one off my chest. Sorry.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem is, the Ultimania has already gone on record as saying that "what the Whispers are" is one of the four big mysteries going into the 2nd Game. There's also the issue that the entire last part of the Remake is about "defeating Fate" so that the Whispers won't make the story go the same way the OG did. So... everything that is Word of God points to what the Whispers are being a big deal and getting referred back to. As does the very theme of what the Whispers are.

 

[Jairus]

Something that bugs me (and no, it's not Jessie-related) is the absolutely horrid pixellization of some backgrounds. Here's a couple images to show what I mean:

Spoiler

Certain walls (such as in Reactor 1), doors (like Cloud's apartment door) and skies look terrible, like something straight out of an MS-DOS game or something. Pixellated, with terrible banding and artifacts. How this stuff ever made it past QA I will never know. Hopefully the PC version will fix this, or if doesn't, modders will.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But then that means that the Gi did attack through there, and were defeated, not that they didnt attack through there.

I've always assumed Bugen was referring to the fact that they weren't able to successfully attack through there because of Seto. He's teasing an explanation that he's building to.

Something that bugs me (and no, it's not Jessie-related) is the absolutely horrid pixellization of some backgrounds. Here's a couple images to show what I mean:

I think the out-of-focus background in that third shot is deliberate.

 

[Jairus]

Oh I'm not talking about the focus. Look closely at left side and the bottom right. See the blockiness and pixellization? On the left it's a sort of tall oval full of banding and such, and on the bottom right where the pipe is, it's just badly pixellated. Easier to see if you look at the image full-size.

 

[Odysseus]

Certain walls (such as in Reactor 1), doors (like Cloud's apartment door) and skies look terrible, like something straight out of an MS-DOS game or something. Pixellated, with terrible banding and artifacts. How this stuff ever made it past QA I will never know. Hopefully the PC version will fix this, or if doesn't, modders will.

All the textures exist at full resolution in the game, it's just a loading issue I believe. I'm hoping the game performs better when played off a PS5. Otherwise we'll just have to wait until a PC version if one happens.

 

[Shademp]

I wrote in the other thread about how FFVIIR is easier to sell to people than the original game and I stand by that.

What FFVIIR has going against it though is the bad impression it gets by "not being the full game" (extra big quotation marks for emphasis). The lack of a clarifying subtitle like say "FFVIIR: Chapter 1" or "FFVIIR: The Beginning" is a setup for confusion. The marketing for the game also could have done more to clear the confusion (and subsequent sense of betrayal) that so many people experience when they suddenly find out that FFVIIR isn't the full retelling of the original story. Clickbait articles in the style of "LULZ OMG IT'S NOT THE FULL GAME WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" is merely an exacerbation of what I believe would have been an issue even without those mindless editorials.

For those of us who have scoured every piece of news since FFVIIR was announced it can feel impossible to miss the fact of this being a multi-part retelling. A co-worker of mine who didn't like the original FFVII was curious to try FFVIIR. Some time then passed between that initial thought and then actually hearing about it being multi-part. This removed his desire to play the game because it gave him the impression of this first chapter being an "incomplete game" AND he'd much rather experience the full story all in one go.

A good comparison here I guess would be TV shows based on familiar IPs: If you're already geeky about the IP then you are more likely to watch each season as it's released and then wait patiently between seasons. If you're only casually curious though you might wait a few years until the whole show is out and then binge watch it all. Lord knows I've done this with multiple TV shows: Waiting for it all to be released so I can then binge the full experience, so I can definitely see how potential new players of FFVIIR will opt to wait until every part is out.

It amuses me how the conversation with my co-worker began like something from the internet. He said to me "Hey you're the guy who took vacation days so he could play FFVII Remake, right? OMG DID YOU KNOW IT'S NOT THE FULL GAME?! I hope you weren't too disappointed!" and I replied like "Dude, I've known for five years that this game would be multi-part."

 

[Cat on Mars]

See the blockiness and pixellization? On the left it's a sort of tall oval full of banding and such, and on the bottom right where the pipe is, it's just badly pixellated.

It's a problem I really hope they fix.


Look at that shit.

All the textures exist at full resolution in the game, it's just a loading issue I believe.

It's exactly that. The engine renders them in such a manner that if you get too close too fast to some surfaces, the textures just load as its default. Also, they are loaded by proximity, so if they're far from the character they might never load at full res.

 

[Tetsujin]

Oh I'm not talking about the focus. Look closely at left side and the bottom right. See the blockiness and pixellization? On the left it's a sort of tall oval full of banding and such, and on the bottom right where the pipe is, it's just badly pixellated. Easier to see if you look at the image full-size.

The game definitely has texture loading issues but what you're pointing out is actually just jpeg compression.