SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Jairus]

About Kitase's statement, I think it's fairly safe to say that the story is going to veer away from the original. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been any need for him to have been evasive about it. The only question remaining, then, is just how much will it diverge and in what ways? Of course, we'll only find that out as the series goes on, possibly going off further and further in its own direction with every new game.

 

[kathy202]

About Kitase's statement, I think it's fairly safe to say that the story is going to veer away from the original.

Yeah I got that feeling from it too, though it makes me sad But Square Enix knows many of us will still buy their games anyway, myself included, so they'll do whatever they want, ugh.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't even care any more. Maybe it would be better to say I don't even mind any more. The OG is the OG. I enjoyed the Remake enough to look forward to whatever comes next. The New Adventures of Avalanche!

 

[Odysseus]

I was telling this to a watermelon earlier, but I think it's worth repeating hhere.When adapting FF7, I personally think it's better to view the original as a framework to build on rather than as a chain to bind your creativity, whether that be in the context of a parody webcomic or in the context of a remake. The most memorable moments are going the be the new ones, and I'm sure those are the more interesting parts to create too.

I guess in my mind having something interesting is more valuable than having something "accurate."

 

[Wol]

I would be excited if the new stuff was promising, but those new elements were so poorly handled in the first one that I have only a glimming hope for the story going forward.

 

[Yumelinh]

But don't we have many other statements that suggest that they won't deviate too much from OG? As like... there will be changes, but OG will still be recognizable there?

Also, Kitase being evasive there can easily be just a way to keep the discussion going until the next installment.

 

[Odysseus]

But don't we have many other statements that suggest that they won't deviate too much from OG? As like... there will be changes, but OG will still be recognizable there?

Also, Kitase being evasive there can easily be just a way to keep the discussion going until the next installment.

Yeah they've said many times that all the scenes people expect to see will be there. It's not going to be a whole different story, but there's also plenty of reason to expect things to not be exactly the same either.

 

[Jairus]

I don't know. Familiar scenes can be there, but in a totally new way - hence how they could both say the story won't be drastically different while also hinting that it will. Part 1 seems to have been set up, through the foreshadowing of later events, expressly to put Cloud and others on the path to changing the OG events in a drastic way by altering that future and possibly preventing the destruction of Midgar by Meteor altogether. And Zack's survival is a huge wrench in any attempt to keep to the OG sequence of events. So I think the divergence from the OG may be greater than some people think. Not to mention the trio's survival and any role they might play in altering the timeline.

 

[Wol]

Maybe they're planning a multiple endings scenario for the last part?

The first layer of the story is faithful, and the ending as well.

But the second layer is the Kingdom Hearts-fiesta, which will affect a certain part of the ending, maybe the post-credits scene.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Going by the literary thrust of the Remake, the next game had better be different from the OG in a large way. The entire point of the Remake is to make sure the events of the OG don't happen. Everyone wants that to happen; Sephiroth, Aerith, AVALANCHE... they are all trying escape the "route" the Whispers want them to be on... which is the "route" of the OG. I'd go so far to say that the "promise" the Remake made to the entire fanbase by the end of the gmae was "this will not be the OG". If the other Remake titles turn out to stick to the OG for the most part, the "promise" of the Remake will make... not that much sense from a story standpoint.

In addition, it does the fandom well to not cherry-pick dev quotes. Nomura has gone on record saying that we know know what "Remake" actually means for a few years... which probably means the next title. This suggests the FF7 Remake isn't a Remake at all, but an entirely new story/game. Just one that depends on a series of events that happened prior to the story that is happening "now". And those events are the story of the FF7: OG. He has also said that what is now the Remake started out a culmination of the compilation, which would go on to be the Remake.

All that said... I find it... telling... that the stuff from the OG is the stuff that flows the best and is the least awkward. When things really start to deviate (weather that be the actual events or "why" the same events are happening), it sticks out a bit too much. The old stuff and the new stuff doesn't... tonally fit together as well as it likes to think it does. And... part of me thinks that the sooner the story stops being beholden to the OG, the sooner that tonal dissonance will go away.

 

[Ite]

Because Square Enix had to make him the final boss... Or something...

Essentially, yes. This writing is being done backwards-to-forwards, without going forwards-to-back afterwards to make sure it feels natural. The result is, in my opinion, a story paced like an old mule eating hot peppers, that concludes like... I honestly can’t think of an analogous ending than approaches the insanity of FF7R1 so I guess it’s the gold standard now (sorry Dark Tower).

Going by the literary thrust of the Remake, the next game had better be different from the OG in a large way. The entire point of the Remake is to make sure the events of the OG don't happen. Everyone wants that to happen; Sephiroth, Aerith, AVALANCHE... they are all trying escape the "route" the Whispers want them to be on... which is the "route" of the OG. I'd go so far to say that the "promise" the Remake made to the entire fanbase by the end of the gmae was "this will not be the OG". If the other Remake titles turn out to stick to the OG for the most part, the "promise" of the Remake will make... not that much sense from a story standpoint.

It’s almost like they‘re doing things without thinking them through

Nomura:

 

[Jairus]

Well, judging from the ending and from what I've heard about KH's er, story complexities, it seems to me that SE either never learned or has forgotten the concept of KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. If they wanted a divergent story that wasn't bound to the OG, they should've done that from the very beginning rather than voluntarily bind their hands behind their backs with the whispers. There's so much they could've done with the Midgar arc if they'd been willing to expand and deviate from the OG narrative a lot more than they did.

 

[Ite]

KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid

“If less is more, think about how much more MORE would be!”

 

[Odysseus]

“If less is more, think about how much more MORE would be!”

More or less

 

[Wol]

Was this posted already, must be a lot of fun lmao

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This writing is being done backwards-to-forwards, without going forwards-to-back afterwards to make sure it feels natural.

This is an execelent summation of what makes FF7R's story feel so awkward at times.

I wouldn't say that SE itself doesn't know the idea behind "keep it simple, stupid" and more that Nomura, Kitase and Nojima don't. The OG itself is... a very good example of what is a rather straightforward concept (go chase down bad guy who wants to destroy the world) made overly complicated by character interactions and world-building subtleties. It's been... a constant with those three dev's work for a very long time.

I think the single biggest mistake of the Remake was the devs deciding they had to justify the changes to the story in-universe. There is a time and a place of Word of God story declarations and "it's a Remake in what is essentially a new medium, so the story will be told differently" is a very good use of Word of God.

On the other hand... that is assuming that a "Remake" was what Nomura, Kitase and Nojima set out to make from the get-go. I can... very easily see them coming up with a story and only later realizing that "hey, we could set this story back in the time of the OG!" and realizing they could finally get the fandom off their backs about making a modern version of FF7. I say that because Nomura's statements about the idea he was working on after CC that become the Remake don't make it sound like a "Remake" of the OG was the idea he started with.

 

[Makoeyes987]

....I mean, comparing Nomura to the Joker is probably the greatest compliment you can give him. That memorable stylistic chaos and authenticity makes him the most well known and popular villain in Batman's rogues gallery for a reason. When it comes to crime, Joker is an artist.

 

[Ite]

....I mean, comparing Nomura to the Joker is probably the greatest compliment you can give him. That memorable stylistic chaos and authenticity makes him the most well known and popular villain in Batman's rogues gallery for a reason. When it comes to crime, Joker is an artist.

Are we the clowns shooting each other to pull off his heist?

 

[Weeros]

It's not like the original didn't also have a very ambiguous ending... until they got yen signs in their eyes and made advent children.

It’s one thing to have ambiguous ending as a planned cherry on top, to cap your well planned artistic vision. It’s another to have it to ensure fan confusion / strong feelings to keep the social media buzz going on for the next five years while we wait for the sequel..

 

[Wol]

The original's ending was ambiguous in the sense that we didn't know exactly what happened after, without conflicting with anything pre-established. There was a proper set up for each element that played out.

It didn't artificially throw in your face 10 new random elements at once. Here not only you don't know what will happen next, you don't know how the fuck all that bloated stuff happened to begin with.

 

[Shademp]

Huge credit to @Sleepezi over at Discord for this observation.

Basic defining features of the Type-0 Behemoth's horns match up with the horns of Azul's behemoth form, Arch Azul.

Spoiler: Protrusions and basic curvature

When Sleepezi first pointed this out I figured "Surely, this horn design is all over multiple Behemoth designs in Final Fantasy" but I made a search and could not find this basic design repeated elsewhere. I am thus convinced that whoever designed the Type-0 Behemoth used Arch Azul as an inspiration and did so for the obvious reason that both are from Deepground.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's Azul's girlfriend we just straight up murdered.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe a failed experiment in human transformation that Azul was the successful result of?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's how they hooked up

 

[Shademp]

Spoiler: Type-0 Behemoth description

While we get the impression of this just being another roided up version of a familiar monster, each creature in Deepground could indeed have been involved in all sorts of experiments.