SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[The Twilight Mexican]

Looneymoon's post in the Chapter 12 thread really summed up my sense of hopelessness for this project, coupled with my conversations with another friend who loved the game but is scared that the Whisper subplot will alter Aeris's death. I told her basically that it was too late. The moment is already about the Whispers. If she lives, it's because we defeated Destiny. If she dies, it means the Whispers won, even after being defeated. Her death scene cannot be divorced from them. It's too late.

In fact, the whole story is now all about the Whispers. Even if we never see them again, and they are never brought up again, THEY WIN whenever something from the OG happens the way it happened in the OG. Fate and Pre-destiny have sapped the senselessness from the violence in the story. They've put every event in every additional game into one of two categories: pro-Whisper or anti-Whisper. Sephiroth is defeated? Guess he couldn't defy Destiny. Tifa escapes the gas chamber? Destiny. Someone betrays us?* Destiny. Something surprising happens? We defeated Destiny.

I don't care if, when Cloud sees the materia falling in the water, he remembers the vision that the Whispers showed him and the drama of the scene becomes all about how he "failed to stop Destiny" (although that's the kind of cheezy schlock I expect from this writing team). I don't care if the characters forget about the Whispers entirely. The writers can't wash their hands of the Whispers, having exhausted their usefulness in the first game. It's already too late. The Remake's story is now about them.

It is really too bad, because I know continuing with the Remake will irreparably damage my interest in the narrative, even in the context of the OG, a novelization, comic, or other adaptation. But such is my interest in the narrative that I'm not sure I'm going to be able to help myself. My only recourse at this point is to grieve the bad fanfic and hold it at arm's length.

*don't know what the OG spoiler policy is in this thread, but Aeris's death is famous enough that I don't think it counts.

I have my problems with the time ghosts, but I much prefer to think of the matter as @Magos-Dominus put it:

They might have escaped the binds of predestination but none of them can escape the people they are.

I mean, that's what's going to do Sephiroth in: being himself. The same thing that always does -- not time ghost plot police, but his remarkable, unique capacity for snatching defeat from the jaws of guaranteed victory.

 

[LNK]

Maybe this is the difference. I wasn't expecting a masterpiece. I'm happily taking that 90% greatness so ... *shrugs*

That's where I'm at with this game. Then again, I never thought the OG was as good as people make it out to be. *Jordan shrug*

 

[oty]

The line of thinking "now everything is about the Whispers/Destiny" really depends. If Aerith dies, it's not that destiny won, it's that the characters inevitably reach that conclusion because of their attitudes. They can easily go to that route.

Thinking statiscally also helps. The ending is filled with development problems, after all it is still a game, and would probably still feel a bit dissonant even if it was "well done". Because being meta is always a bit dissonant. It destroys your im the moment belief for everything, after all, it's kind of talking directly to you. Now you can dislike that, but I acknowledge it is pretty freaking bold, unique and special. Not many games, and specially not Remakes, can say that they tackle questions that very own represents them. It's a layer of depth that would only work if you remake one of the most acclaimed games of all time. And it was exactly their situation. They saw an opportunity to do something more with the Remake, and they took it. And it works with all of their lines of thinkings: it doesnt and shouldnt overwrite the original, and respecting the original doesnt mean trying to recreate it. Not to them.

But okay, even if you still dont support it, completely possible, there comes statistics. The other 90% of the game is pretty freaking good. They showed that when tackling the original, they can pretty much deliver. Of course they didnt deliver everything, thats very subjective, but for the most part it was pretty good. They nailed what was probably the hardest, and what they most failed after the OG, points to nail: characterisation and dialogue. Those are very important points that we need to remember when thinking about the sequel. It should give the developers some credits, after all, they worked their butt offs to make that good.

And maybe, yeah, those importaint points arent really what grabs you when you think about the sequels, or about the project in general. And if they really change the next parts, or what they have already changed, they might lose/have lost you. But there isnt a right or wrong here. You are not wrong with having the vision that you have, and the developers sure as hell aint wrong too. It's a shitty situation, because there isnt a right answer. There isnt anyone to blame.

I respect the Remake, and specially with the developers. They did lots of extremely great stuff just for us the fans (like Hell House), but they also tried to tackle on something new. And they are creators. They have a right to create. Specially on the project that they very own created 23 years ago. Specially when they try to do something more, something unique. When they took an opportunity, even if it meant disappointing some fans. It's something that now is on my mind. I was playing through the Trials of Mana remake yesterday, and FFVIIR was on my mind. They really did something that, atleast for now, will always be on my mind when I think about remakes.

And it might not be on yours. They failed for you. But again, there isnt a right or wrong. This isnt "KHness" or "Nomura being Nomura". It's an attempt by the whole development team that you can accept, respect, overlook. And also disapprove. Again, if I look at it statiscally, I should be eager for the next part. They delivered on what they had to deliver for an approvement. But for every person, there is a different story.

 

[LNK]

Like a few others have said, there's so much good to this game, that I can overlook it's mistakes. Even then, a mistake to one person, might not be to the next person. And, what's good to one, might not be good for the next. But, no matter what, the remake will never diminish the OG's place in a lot of people's hearts.

For me, I like what we're getting overall, especially the emotional scenes. Some of them could not come out in the OG, due to limitations. I can't speak enough on how much I like Barret. He has so much passion for trying to make a difference. He definitely steals the show in part 1. His scenes with Marlene, the one in ch 13 after the plate collapsed, and the one with Pres Shinra in ch 17, show how much depth SE gave him. Each character is being given the same treatment.

The music is much better (imo) in the remake as well. I love how they take one song, and tweak minor things about it, to fit different scenes.

"I respect the Remake, and specially with the developers. They did lots of extremely great stuff just for us the fans (like Hell House), but they also tried to tackle on something new. And they are creators. They have a right to create. Specially on the project that they very own created 23 years ago. Specially when they try to do something more, something unique. When they took an opportunity, even if it meant disappointing some fans. It's something that now is on my mind. I was playing through the Trials of Mana remake yesterday, and FFVIIR was on my mind. They really did something that, atleast for now, will always be on my mind when I think about remakes.

And it might not be on yours. They failed for you. But again, there isnt a right or wrong. This isnt "KHness" or "Nomura being Nomura". It's an attempt by the whole development team that you can accept, respect, overlook. And also disapprove. Again, if I look at it statiscally, I should be eager for the next part. They delivered on what they had to deliver for an approvement. But for every person, there is a different story. "

These two paragraphs by @oty really encompass how I feel about the remake

 

[Theozilla]

The only way I can see that being logically consistent is if this is indeed a sequel (I haven't been keeping up with the debate for the past several days, but as of current, I believe that this is the most likely scenario). The only reason why the Planet would conjure these new beings into existence (while maintaining a firm non-existence in the OG) is if we go Chrono with it. I am fully aware that they were created to justify creator divergence and initiate a metadialog with the fans, but you can't throw out logic and the existing narrative to further that. That's bad writing.

Wouldn't it just be easier to accept that the Planet has new and additional powers in the Remake's version of the story compared to the OG? Like how smart-phones exist in this version of the story, but didn't in the Remake. Seems easier than trying to creating a Watsonian explanation to reconcile the meta-commentary elements of the Remake IMO?

Anyways I really agreed with Jirad The Completionist's take on the Remake, that the original themes and concepts from the OG are still baked into the Remake, but they just sit alongside the new themes that have been added in the Remake (even if the ending was arguably a little too cryptic for its own good), making for an amazing adaptation experience.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

That's where I'm at with this game. Then again, I never thought the OG was as good as people make it out to be. *Jordan shrug*

 

[Rydeen]

Wouldn't it just be easier to accept that the Planet has new and additional powers in the Remake's version of the story compared to the OG? Like how smart-phones exist in this version of the story, but didn't in the Remake. Seems easier than trying to creating a Watsonian explanation to reconcile the meta-commentary elements of the Remake IMO?

No, not for me.

The options would basically be: time travel, or relegating the OG to a non-canon AU. The issue with the OG becoming non-canon to the compilation, is that AC, OtWtaS, etc would probably no longer be applicable as sequels to the OG - only the remake (the bright side would be that Genesis would no longer be canon to the OG continuity lel). However, as I said earlier, I might still be able to enjoy future installments in spite of poor execution of this, provided that the script, character development, settings, and gameplay are as good as FFVIIR1.

 

[ultima786]

Wouldn't it just be easier to accept that the Planet has new and additional powers in the Remake's version of the story compared to the OG? Like how smart-phones exist in this version of the story, but didn't in the Remake. Seems easier than trying to creating a Watsonian explanation to reconcile the meta-commentary elements of the Remake IMO?

Anyways I really agreed with Jirad The Completionist's take on the Remake, that the original themes and concepts from the OG are still baked into the Remake, but they just sit alongside the new themes that have been added in the Remake (even if the ending was arguably a little too cryptic for its own good), making for an amazing adaptation experience.

I’m on the same page as this. The planet is basically analogous God and has divine messengers who have profound powers including foresight and ability to act on past present and future. The whispers are basically the final conclusions of what the planet seems to be the right choices for itself.

Anyone in touch with those powers will have knowledge of past, present, and future and what is possible. That’s why Aerith and Sephiroth know so much.

I think that is fully consistent and you don’t have to believe OG is another timeline to Remake. Red13 even implies that their visions were just possibilities, I think: “that will be our future if we fail here today.” He did not say, “This was our past” nor did he say “This is an alternate timeline.” I might be wrong but this is how it reads to me.

The ONLY [explicit] evidence otherwise is what you assess of the whispers. But I’ve repeated already that the Assess of the whispers says that they are from a “future timeline.” But that should probably be read as it reads in Japanese: “they are from the future.” What does “future timeline” even mean? A timeline involves past and future if it’s really a line of time. In short, the whispers are just the planet’s henchmen to act upon its own foresight. I don’t even think there is an OG in this remake universe. No one else time-hops nor bounces timelines except the whispers, not Sephiroth nor Aerith.

 

[Theozilla]

No, not for me.

The options would basically be: time travel, or relegating the OG to a non-canon AU. The issue with the OG becoming non-canon to the compilation, is that AC, OtWtaS, etc would probably no longer be applicable as sequels to the OG - only the remake (the bright side would be that Genesis would no longer be canon to the OG continuity lel). I'm pretty big on continuity, but as I said, I might still be able to enjoy future installments in spite of poor execution of this, provided that the script, character development, settings, and gameplay are as good as FFVIIR1.

Hmmm, maybe it's because I am huge Godzilla fan but having one thing be canon to two different storylines is par for the course in the Godzilla films. So for me I am just viewing it as the Compilation being canon both to the OG and the Remake, like how the 1954 Godzilla is canon to both the Shōwa films continuity and the Heisei era films continuity (plus the various Millennium era films that are just canon to themselves and the 1954 film).
So the OG and Remake are still separate stories but the Compilation can fit with either of them.

 

[Rydeen]

So the OG and Remake are still separate stories but the Compilation can fit with either of them.

That would depend on how it's executed. If the changes are going to be as extensive as they seem, I don't think that will be the case.

 

[Theozilla]

That would depend on how it's executed. If the changes are going to be as extensive as they seem, I don't think that will be the case.

But regardless of the number of changes, isn't it just simpler to accept that the Remake has new additional elements/rules to how its cosmology/lore works compared to the OG?

 

[Rydeen]

But regardless of the number of changes, isn't it just simpler to accept that the Remake has new additional elements/rules to how its cosmology/lore works compared to the OG?

Simpler, yes. In line with the way I process things? No.
I'm far too attached to this fandom to accept so much logical inconsistency without bitching about it.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Well I think people have 2 options. Accept it or don't play it. It is what it is I suppose.

 

[Rydeen]

Well I think people have 2 options. Accept it or don't play it. It is what it is I suppose.

It's still up in the air. We have no idea how any of this will be executed, or even what exactly happened in the ending. As I said earlier, I can still probably enjoy the remake if they mess up the meta thing, provided they succeed in other ways. That's not gonna stop me from trying to dissect it and fill the plot holes, though.

 

[Odysseus]

If we want to get ultra nitpicky about it, there are enough design discrepancies between the remake and advent children/crisis core to where they can't be canon to each other. I try not to think to hard about it.

 

[Rydeen]

Interestingly, I find it easier to dismiss design and physics discontinuities more than plot inconsistencies. We all have our things, I guess.

 

[Odysseus]

Cloths maybe, but sector 5 looking completely different is another thing.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Interestingly, I find it easier to dismiss design and physics discontinuities more than plot inconsistencies. We all have our things, I guess.

 

[Rydeen]

Cloths maybe, but sector 5 looking completely different is another thing.

The long road leading to Aerith's house irked me a bit.
There was also the goof where the missing Sector 6 plate was in the wrong place. I wasn't the one to notice, but now I can't unsee it.

 

[Theozilla]

The long road leading to Aerith's house irked me a bit.
There was also the goof where the missing Sector 6 plate was in the wrong place. I wasn't the one to notice, but now I can't unsee it.

Yeah, I believe I was one of the first the people (in this forum) who pointed that out first, the Sector 5 slums use the Sector 6 plate as its skybox. And when you're in the actual Sector 6 slums its support pillar is no to be found in the background (when it should be visible). Also the ending sequence cutscenes accidentally used the Sector 6 plate where the open sky of the destroyed Sector 7 plate should have been.

 

[Kratos]

No, not for me.

The options would basically be: time travel, or relegating the OG to a non-canon AU. The issue with the OG becoming non-canon to the compilation, is that AC, OtWtaS, etc would probably no longer be applicable as sequels to the OG - only the remake (the bright side would be that Genesis would no longer be canon to the OG continuity lel). However, as I said earlier, I might still be able to enjoy future installments in spite of poor execution of this, provided that the script, character development, settings, and gameplay are as good as FFVIIR1.

I would caution against getting too hung up on what is and is not canon. Too often, fandom takes that word as meaning "the one true depiction of How Things Happened," but when it comes to fictional works, "canon" is a word that simply means "in continuity with a set of other stories"; as such, the Remake can't relegate the original as non-canon to the Compilation because nothing that the Remake does can change the fact that the Compilation was written as a sequel to the original game. At most, they would both serve as equally-valid starting points to experiencing the Compilation.

When it's all fiction anyways and none of it is true, there's room for stories that approach the same set of events in different ways. @Theozilla gave a great example with the Godzilla film series, but to be honest, this is how storytelling has worked for most of human existence: eventually, a storyteller will come along who wants to explore a narrative from an angle that it wasn't designed to be approached from, and will then tweak it to tell the story they want to tell. Arthurian legend is infamous for this; comics do it constantly; major anime franchises think nothing of it; even Star Wars, which is essentially what brought the term canon to pop culture in the 90s, now has branching continuities that aren't literal alternate universes.

So yeah. If the only thing that's forcing you to view Remake's flourishes as signs of it being a Stealth Sequel as opposed to seeing them as simply new additions is the concern that it would need to "replace" the original game, you don't need to. The original game isn't rendered moot by Remake unless you want it to be.

 

[Claymore]

Excellent post.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nothing can ever replace the original game.
It took me a bit of a struggle to come around to your point of view, Kratos, but I'm glad I have. Even before the Remake came out, I told myself it was going to be SE's AU version of the game.
Anyone who is creative themselves knows how impossible it is to tell the exact same story twice, especially when over 20 years have passed. You've told that story, you've said what needed to be said, why say it again? I totally understand why they felt they wanted to see what new things they could do with it. I don't always like it, but then I bet if they read my fanfic they wouldn't always like what I did with their world either.

 

[Roger]

No, not for me.

The options would basically be: time travel, or relegating the OG to a non-canon AU. The issue with the OG becoming non-canon to the compilation, is that AC, OtWtaS, etc would probably no longer be applicable as sequels to the OG - only the remake (the bright side would be that Genesis would no longer be canon to the OG continuity lel). However, as I said earlier, I might still be able to enjoy future installments in spite of poor execution of this, provided that the script, character development, settings, and gameplay are as good as FFVIIR1.

Wouldn't it just be easier to accept that the Planet has new and additional powers in the Remake's version of the story compared to the OG? Like how smart-phones exist in this version of the story, but didn't in the Remake. Seems easier than trying to creating a Watsonian explanation to reconcile the meta-commentary elements of the Remake IMO?

Anyways I really agreed with Jirad The Completionist's take on the Remake, that the original themes and concepts from the OG are still baked into the Remake, but they just sit alongside the new themes that have been added in the Remake (even if the ending was arguably a little too cryptic for its own good), making for an amazing adaptation experience.

It wouldn't just call it meta-commentary.

Between Kunsel, G-Type and S-Type SOLDIERs, the Turk's interpreting their mission as bodyguarding Aerith up till now and the entirety of Zack's last stand reused verbatim, one is led to conclude that at the very least Crisis Core is a story considered to have happened in this world, with the Whispers around but invisible to everyone up to including Sephiroth and Aerith. It's ending is part of the fate the Whispers guard. Likewise to the events that follows two months after Zack's death, there's what happens in this game and the course of history the guardians attemps to align with. The original game still has it's place in this canon as that story, I feel.

 

[Odysseus]

Square themselves were afraid to touch the original game for years because they knew how high of a regard people held it in. If I recall, the only reason they decided to take on this project now is because if they waited much longer a lot of the original dev staff would be too old, or just plain be too dead to make it happen. Given the less than enthusiastic response to some of the more controversial elements, they were completely right to think that they'd inevitably be letting some of their fans down. There's a reason Nomura went out of his way to say the remake doesn't replace the original. they all know how dear it is to people, so I really can't fathom them having the remake be an in-canon reboot with all of that in mind. They wanted this game to be as exciting for new players as it was for old, so why would the plot hinge so much on prior knowledge in that even? At least with KH they made the previous entries easily accessible. The compilation is effectively scattered to the winds, its unreasonable to expect people to have that information going in to the remake. This is a story they want everyone to experience, so I think any time shenanigans will be contained solely to the world of the remake, no stealth sequeling here.