ultima786
Pro Adventurer
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- ultima
He worked for Shinra. He better be using some shinra tech to float.
FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH ANNOUNCED
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
The working for shinra thing was a mistranslation of the OG. He was a regular/valued customer is essentially what the meaning was.
Vincent The machines in Cosmo Canyon were presents of Dr. Gast. Wrapped up in the planet's strange notions surrounded by Shinra-made machines... Science and the planet lived side by side in that old man's heart.
@Sleepezi also did quite a bit of digging into the projector at Cosmo Canyon.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
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- ultima
Wait, what is this quote? Is it comparing the localization to the translation?
Oh sorry no that's another quote from a different point in the game to add what you were saying.
Ghost X
Moderator
Thread is now pinned
Eerie
Fire and Blood
There's this interview coming from a Korean magazine but I think it covers mostly what they already said about CCR. Posting it here because there's a dot to Re-series:
The fact that they state that we need to finish the trilogy to understand why there is no contradiction with the end of CCR makes me think that definitely, FFVII OG and Remake will probably have the same ending, leaving the rest of the Compilation (ACC, DoC, all the novellas) canon to the story. Whatever they are up to with Zack will be resolved by the third game.
The fact that they state that we need to finish the trilogy to understand why there is no contradiction with the end of CCR makes me think that definitely, FFVII OG and Remake will probably have the same ending, leaving the rest of the Compilation (ACC, DoC, all the novellas) canon to the story. Whatever they are up to with Zack will be resolved by the third game.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
With that, I'm amending my theory of what's to come given the new information and repeated expressions the writer's have said again and again with CCR. While they haven't been filled with lots of new information, there have been... interesting clues that have recontextualized some things we didn't know before.
The clarification of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, in Remake Revisited is extremely interesting. Namely, the fact that what we saw were not the actual Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo. They were creations of the Planet based on memories of things to come. With that in mind, we now know that things that don't exist, can exist as a memory from within the collective consciousness of the Planet. Memories of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo were utilized to create Whisper Rubrum, Corceo and Viridi, despite the fact that they did not yet exist. That's a very interesting clarification and reveal. Because we now know for sure that the Planet seemingly has a record of specific lifeforms that have yet to exist, within the Whispers, and they utilize those memories to keep track of the past so that its existence is maintained on what's supposed to be their destiny.
So if that memory is altered or disrupted, errors would naturally be possible. If the Whispers are destroyed, then those errors could easily manifest as false histories and memories of living beings, artworks and events that aren't actually reality. Errors like Zack being alive and having seemingly survived his death. And that error, would be thanks to Sephiroth manipulating the Planet's own mechanism for himself to allow him to work freely within the Remake.
What that means is that the past has not changed. It means that the Planet's own record of it, or memory of it, has changed. And if the Planet can use it's memories to create be used to create entities for its own purposes... What if those mistaken memories could be used the same way?
What if they can cause other people, like those close to the Planet, or those with fragile fragmented memories, to then be confused by what's real and what isn't. Because reality is blurred even for the Planet.
I think that's probably what's going to happen now. An alternate timeline is possible but I feel it's....a bit less likely now. I think this is more attached to the Planet's own record and temporal existence as dictated by the Lifestream entirely. The Lifestream is it's own living, breathing and recorded timeline that apparently the Planet utilizes to keep track of souls and their existence.
The clarification of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, in Remake Revisited is extremely interesting. Namely, the fact that what we saw were not the actual Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo. They were creations of the Planet based on memories of things to come. With that in mind, we now know that things that don't exist, can exist as a memory from within the collective consciousness of the Planet. Memories of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo were utilized to create Whisper Rubrum, Corceo and Viridi, despite the fact that they did not yet exist. That's a very interesting clarification and reveal. Because we now know for sure that the Planet seemingly has a record of specific lifeforms that have yet to exist, within the Whispers, and they utilize those memories to keep track of the past so that its existence is maintained on what's supposed to be their destiny.
So if that memory is altered or disrupted, errors would naturally be possible. If the Whispers are destroyed, then those errors could easily manifest as false histories and memories of living beings, artworks and events that aren't actually reality. Errors like Zack being alive and having seemingly survived his death. And that error, would be thanks to Sephiroth manipulating the Planet's own mechanism for himself to allow him to work freely within the Remake.
What that means is that the past has not changed. It means that the Planet's own record of it, or memory of it, has changed. And if the Planet can use it's memories to create be used to create entities for its own purposes... What if those mistaken memories could be used the same way?
What if they can cause other people, like those close to the Planet, or those with fragile fragmented memories, to then be confused by what's real and what isn't. Because reality is blurred even for the Planet.
I think that's probably what's going to happen now. An alternate timeline is possible but I feel it's....a bit less likely now. I think this is more attached to the Planet's own record and temporal existence as dictated by the Lifestream entirely. The Lifestream is it's own living, breathing and recorded timeline that apparently the Planet utilizes to keep track of souls and their existence.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I always thought that the Kadaj and al Whisper forms were just memories of the future, so not them per se.
That's an interesting theory; but I just reread the interviews of the first Ultimania in French, and it turns out that the Whispers have no power in the Singularity. They pointed out that - which I didn't remember - so that made me go "oh, does that mean that all the Whispers there were the ones controlled by Sephiroth?" So that means that everything they saw there was controlled by Sephiroth to manipulate them; and to me it's quite clear that the party thinks that what they're showing is a bad outcome, while we know it's the necessary one to save the Planet.
Aerith speaks of freedom because the usual Whispers can't protect them there - it means if they die there, they can't revive them like they did with Barret, they can't protect them from a fate that's not supposed to happen. So it's the freedom to try and fail, or succeed.
We already predicted that Sephiroth wanted to manipulate the future there - by inviting Cloud, although it didn't work. But maybe also by having the memories create wrong ones; like, that reminds me of the Whispers duplicating Midgar, but it was different. And the Stamp with Zack is wrong, as is Midgar. So I think you're onto something there!
That's an interesting theory; but I just reread the interviews of the first Ultimania in French, and it turns out that the Whispers have no power in the Singularity. They pointed out that - which I didn't remember - so that made me go "oh, does that mean that all the Whispers there were the ones controlled by Sephiroth?" So that means that everything they saw there was controlled by Sephiroth to manipulate them; and to me it's quite clear that the party thinks that what they're showing is a bad outcome, while we know it's the necessary one to save the Planet.
Aerith speaks of freedom because the usual Whispers can't protect them there - it means if they die there, they can't revive them like they did with Barret, they can't protect them from a fate that's not supposed to happen. So it's the freedom to try and fail, or succeed.
We already predicted that Sephiroth wanted to manipulate the future there - by inviting Cloud, although it didn't work. But maybe also by having the memories create wrong ones; like, that reminds me of the Whispers duplicating Midgar, but it was different. And the Stamp with Zack is wrong, as is Midgar. So I think you're onto something there!
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I think what they meant in terms of the Whispers having no power in the Singularity, is how they can freely influence and impact the present with invulnerability like they did throughout the entire Remake. Because while in the Singularity, you can actually fight and harm the Whispers. You're in their territory where they're actually vulnerable and they can't just push Cloud and the others around with impunity. They have to actually fight back when before they could just create a barrier and be intangible while they made things happen.
I think the influence Sephiroth had came afterwards. Sephiroth absorbed the Whispers after they were fought, and weakened. We see him pull them all into his body.
But yeah, the one thing that is consistent here, at least in terms of the manner of "time travel" and influence thereof, is that it's from the Lifestream and the Planet. I think that's the mechanism. The procedure. The "timeline" is ironically the Planet/Lifestream itself.
I think the influence Sephiroth had came afterwards. Sephiroth absorbed the Whispers after they were fought, and weakened. We see him pull them all into his body.
But yeah, the one thing that is consistent here, at least in terms of the manner of "time travel" and influence thereof, is that it's from the Lifestream and the Planet. I think that's the mechanism. The procedure. The "timeline" is ironically the Planet/Lifestream itself.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
No, that is clearly NOT how it was translated in French:
The question that interests us here starts with "Au bout de l'autoroute de Midgar..." on this page.
Translation:
So yeah, I don't remember reading this and it might have escaped us until now, but this is from the French Ultimania from the developpers' interview at the end with Nojima and Nomura.
The question that interests us here starts with "Au bout de l'autoroute de Midgar..." on this page.
Translation:
So yeah, I don't remember reading this and it might have escaped us until now, but this is from the French Ultimania from the developpers' interview at the end with Nojima and Nomura.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Hmm, that's translated differently in English. Audrey's translation is in the appropriate thread and she had it worded pretty differently.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
It... literally has the same meaning tho?
Edit: she translated that they are "outside of the boundaries of the Whispers" and they will be in a place where "there is no predestined fate", which means the same thing to me???
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
The statement seems to say the Whispers have no control. Anything goes within the Singularity and they aren't able to unilaterally control the course of how the party acts based on their abilities. Like I said, the Whispers are vulnerable, can be hurt, and have to fight back against Cloud and the others, versus how they were in the "real" world.
I don't think the Whispers in the Singularity are Sephiroth's or anything. They're just the Whispers. The visions they saw are actual memories the Planet carried regarding the future of FFVII. The reason the party interpreted them as "bad", is based on their own ignorance and the current situation they were in. After all, in the Revisiting the Remake for Chapter 18 they say:
So their reaction or (mis)understanding of those is simply based on their lack of knowledge. I don't think Sephiroth is manipulating them. They simply just see the future without any understanding or context.
I don't think the Whispers in the Singularity are Sephiroth's or anything. They're just the Whispers. The visions they saw are actual memories the Planet carried regarding the future of FFVII. The reason the party interpreted them as "bad", is based on their own ignorance and the current situation they were in. After all, in the Revisiting the Remake for Chapter 18 they say:
So their reaction or (mis)understanding of those is simply based on their lack of knowledge. I don't think Sephiroth is manipulating them. They simply just see the future without any understanding or context.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
To me that just sounds the same, that the Whispers have no power in the Singularity, and that the party agrees to risk their lives by entering inside. Nojima insisted that there is no fate (one that has been shown through Remake) inside, which points towards the Whispers being effectively useless inside.
I've also always wondered why the Whispers would attack the party, especially by using memories of their future enemies, but it makes sense if in this place the memories have started to distort as in your theory.
Oh I thought that it was maybe Sephiroth's goal, that they'd misunderstand. In the end, Sephiroth too wants to be freed from those future memories that turn him into a sore loser. He wants to change that, he wants to be the one controlling the Lifestream and turn into a god. So far the memories of the Lifestream kept him in the camp of losers so there's nothing much he can do about it, despite "surviving" until the end (that sounds like a punishment doesn't it).
So the Lifestream controls reality itself(since the timeline, and everything that happens in it, is reality)? In that case, anybody who can travel the Lifestream, can travel through time too.
How can the Lifestream be the river of souls/memories inside the planet, but also be the timestream itself? This is so convoluted! ?
How can the Lifestream be the river of souls/memories inside the planet, but also be the timestream itself? This is so convoluted! ?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Because memories, spirit energy, and in essence lifestream are the building blocks of everything, from life to the record of all life itself. Reality is defined by consciousness and the collective intelligence that perceives it. So if that perception is altered, redefined or changed, then who's to say reality isn't warped itself?
It's really no different than materia and summons. Summon beasts are existences that existed long ago, but who's to say that's the shape or form they had in reality when alive? Or if they even were alive? Their appearance and abilities could have been far different than what they are now in materia. But because of the record, the memory of the collective unconscious in the Lifestream, defines their shape, that's what they are now. Why are there 5 different Bahamuts? What makes Minerva, the manifestation of the Lifestream look like an armor clad valkyrie? They're in essence, eikons. Primals. Belief, memory and perception give them form.
And if an entity that doesn't exist except as a "memory" from a predetermined future can be given shape and form to act in the present, then it definitely stands to reason that a memory of something that doesn't exist, or rather, is thought to exist, can be formed and made into something too. If the Planet's own record or spiritual/spacial timeline can be corrupted or manipulated, then it definitely makes sense that it'd alter things that exist in reality. And Cloud's mind is already corrupted by the influence of Jenova cells filling in gaps in his memory. It wouldn't be much surprise if Sephiroth were capable of taking advantage of that and feed him false memories of things that aren't real but are thought to be real.
Hell, Cloud thinks Zack was alive and he was conscious with him and that he just "disappeared." That's a red flag, right there.
And Sephiroth ominously said he would "never be a memory." That could precisely be what he is, except he's a memory with sentience and now refuses to be just a memory.
It's really no different than materia and summons. Summon beasts are existences that existed long ago, but who's to say that's the shape or form they had in reality when alive? Or if they even were alive? Their appearance and abilities could have been far different than what they are now in materia. But because of the record, the memory of the collective unconscious in the Lifestream, defines their shape, that's what they are now. Why are there 5 different Bahamuts? What makes Minerva, the manifestation of the Lifestream look like an armor clad valkyrie? They're in essence, eikons. Primals. Belief, memory and perception give them form.
And if an entity that doesn't exist except as a "memory" from a predetermined future can be given shape and form to act in the present, then it definitely stands to reason that a memory of something that doesn't exist, or rather, is thought to exist, can be formed and made into something too. If the Planet's own record or spiritual/spacial timeline can be corrupted or manipulated, then it definitely makes sense that it'd alter things that exist in reality. And Cloud's mind is already corrupted by the influence of Jenova cells filling in gaps in his memory. It wouldn't be much surprise if Sephiroth were capable of taking advantage of that and feed him false memories of things that aren't real but are thought to be real.
Hell, Cloud thinks Zack was alive and he was conscious with him and that he just "disappeared." That's a red flag, right there.
And Sephiroth ominously said he would "never be a memory." That could precisely be what he is, except he's a memory with sentience and now refuses to be just a memory.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Cool as hell, and well-said!
Golden Ear
Pro Adventurer
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- M. Prod
What's your current take on the DLC ending with Zack at the church? It definitely seems to be setting up something for him.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
There are several key details missing in that scene. How Zack got to the church, what he did before he got there, Cloud's location....
I think the big detail we'll see regarding that whole scene is that it will be Cloud himself saying he was with Zack when that happened, and it's going to be a big detail about his past and him suddenly remembering what he did with Zack before his supposed disappearance.
I think the big change of Part 2 with Zack will be how he's handled. With Cloud actively remembering and thinking he's alive out there, and Sephiroth using that against him. I think there's a very big chance the game is going to fake us out into thinking the past has been changed with Zack and that Zack is alive and out there, and its going to mess with our heads and Cloud's.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Well, that'd sure be an interesting turn of events.
What I can say is that what's interesting to me is:
- Aerith's reaction at the end of Remake: she's forced to part with Zack
- Aerith's reaction at the end of Intergrade: she notices something is wrong
I do wonder if there was a change of mind in between those two events, relative to how they'd handle Zack. We can think that Aerith feels that something is wrong with the Lifestream in Intergrade, without being able to pinpoint what is; then we are directed towards Zack, which could be a wrong memory of the Lifestream.
If Cloud remembers him though, I think it may be after his retelling of the Nibelheim incident at Kalm. If they did integrate him there, it would probably be too different from the OG; we need that memory of him "being" Zack. Maybe he will remember somewhere later like Gongaga when his parents mention him.
If Aerith is told that Zack is alive but that something has happened to him, I do wonder what would be her reaction? In the OG she pretended that he was a womaniser and probably left her, but I don't really see Remake!Aerith make that claim.
What I can say is that what's interesting to me is:
- Aerith's reaction at the end of Remake: she's forced to part with Zack
- Aerith's reaction at the end of Intergrade: she notices something is wrong
I do wonder if there was a change of mind in between those two events, relative to how they'd handle Zack. We can think that Aerith feels that something is wrong with the Lifestream in Intergrade, without being able to pinpoint what is; then we are directed towards Zack, which could be a wrong memory of the Lifestream.
If Cloud remembers him though, I think it may be after his retelling of the Nibelheim incident at Kalm. If they did integrate him there, it would probably be too different from the OG; we need that memory of him "being" Zack. Maybe he will remember somewhere later like Gongaga when his parents mention him.
If Aerith is told that Zack is alive but that something has happened to him, I do wonder what would be her reaction? In the OG she pretended that he was a womaniser and probably left her, but I don't really see Remake!Aerith make that claim.
But physical, objective reality still exists, regardless of our perception of it. It doesn't make sense for everything being just memories in Remake, unless this is all happening inside the planet, within the memories of the Lifestream itself.
Because the Lifestream is not the Matrix. It isn't the world around the characters, it's literally a green river flowing under their feet.
Like I said above, everything happening in Remake only makes sense, if we assume this is all happening within the planet. The events of the OG and the Compilation already happened, and the planet has all of these memories stored, but Sephiroth's consciousness within the Lifestream is trying to change them for his own benefit.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You mean the physical objective reality that's also built on the back of spirit energy? Mako energy? Materia? Magic? The power and influence Jenova can exert over other people's minds and experience of reality? Everything that lives and dies carries spirit energy. Consciousness, memories, all of it. The tangible world and the spiritual world flow back and forth into each other; what's perceived and remembered are 100% linked since those memories form the basis of what form someone may take or be invoked. Hell, look at how Sephiroth managed to rez himself back to life. His memories, thoughts and will power turn into physical substance. It's why crystalized knowledge and memories can literally make magic that influence reality.
For Cetra, who are able to perceive and experience the world clearly while listening to the Planet, the Lifestream literally is all around them and permeating the entire world. The lack of awareness others my experience doesn't change that fact that the reality is built upon that. The Lifestream is what connects everyone and as seen by how the Singularity and Arbiters of Fate work, it literally can work unseen on reality itself.
As the Remake demonstrated, no, the events of FFVII's history and future have not happened. That's 100% not going on right now, because the Arbiters of Fate had to work to actually perform their duty. The Planet itself simply carries the memory of events that have not yet come to past. That's precognition or future sight. It doesn't mean the future has already happened, it means the Planet's consciousness and memories are all mixed together and able to be linked all the way to it's actual future. The Planet has something akin to the theosophical concept of the Akashic Records; a record of all events, thoughts, words, emotions and intentions ever to have occurred in the past, present, or future.
The events don't need to have happened already for the Planet to know they're meant to happen and a corresponding memory to exist of it. That's why Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo and other spiritual entities who don't exist yet still have spirit energy and are tasked with protecting themselves. The Planet has a memory meant to have a corresponding life to match it.
So the planet, using all the memories within it, was able to correctly predict what would happen in the future(people's actions, random occurences, accidents, etc), and created the Whispers to ensure that it all happened?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's not prediction, it's knowledge, but yeah. That's why it has memories and knowledge for events that have yet to happen. That's its destiny.
But if that's the case, killing them shouldn't have affected the past.