Final Fantasy VIII General Discussion

Lex

Administrator
I'm frequently forgetting huge things these days, I blame age. I was re-reading the Buffyverse thread and came across this huge post I made talking about the plot points for a series of 30 Buffy season 8 comics I'd read, I even dove into character storylines and how I felt about them.

Can't remember a single second of reading any of it. Genuinely felt like someone else must have made the post XD.
 

RedFFWolf

Donator
13567189_1166546173397658_7359203353069521184_n.jpg


Rinoa: "You're the best looking guy here"
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I'm replaying it (my fourth time) trying to do both a low-level run and a Card mastery run, the latter of which I have never attempted. I've just left Timber, got off the train, and holy crap I have so many monsters to find (then draw for hours and run away from) and people to play cards! Gotta spread dat Open rule.

VIII is one of those stories you have to read twice. When you're about to leave Timber,
you meet up with your spare party member on the train platform. They are standing still, and when you talk to them, they shrug at you (I love how subtle the character movements are. Simple head turns, muscle tension etc.) Anyway, it came across to me like Quistis had zoned out before I approached her, and Squall proceeds to say "This is our train, we're going to [Galbadia Garden]" etc. and then Quistis says something to the effect of "Yes. Of course. It's good to have a leader with such a good memory." BOOM!

I also love the line by the Garden staff, the same scene where Cid gives you Diablos. "Pay no attention to any GF criticisms you may hear!" Obviously, the fact that filling your brain with spells causes brain damage is not an undocumented phenomenon.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
*shrug* I dunno, if your boyfriend failed to graduate so hard he spent the cocktail party in detention, would you want to dance with a chode?
 

RedFFWolf

Donator
Oh, my original image is gone - it was pixel-Squall reminding people about his remake (which I would love to see; I think it would really look the part).

Really feeling the itch to play this game again. Jokes about Squall's photogenic nature aside, I rate him highly as a character (and I enjoy the whole cast).


VIII is one of those stories you have to read twice. When you're about to leave Timber,
you meet up with your spare party member on the train platform. They are standing still, and when you talk to them, they shrug at you (I love how subtle the character movements are. Simple head turns, muscle tension etc.) Anyway, it came across to me like Quistis had zoned out before I approached her, and Squall proceeds to say "This is our train, we're going to [Galbadia Garden]" etc. and then Quistis says something to the effect of "Yes. Of course. It's good to have a leader with such a good memory." BOOM!
And if the following is intentional, it's also great in how her leadership had been questioned when she was an Instructor, and here it's as if this comment was a comparison she was making between herself and Squall as a leader.


I also love the line by the Garden staff, the same scene where Cid gives you Diablos. "Pay no attention to any GF criticisms you may hear!" Obviously, the fact that filling your brain with spells causes brain damage is not an undocumented phenomenon.

Indeed. You can first see it mentioned in the study panel at the start of the game. Here.


13567189_1166546173397658_7359203353069521184_n.jpg


Rinoa: "You're the best looking guy here"

Girls like Rinoa annoy me when they pick guys out like that.

73b.png
(Well, I needed a new Squall image).
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Ahhh yes the Study Panel. It seemed so innocuous in 1999, but is the grandfather of the dreaded Datalog from FFXIII.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Forgot all about that! Thanks, JB.

I'm reading through these entries on that wiki page. I notice that most of that info is said to Squall in dialogue before the codex entries are unlocked, or else it's flavour text, like "The tomb (of the unknown king) remains nameless due to an ancient belief that calling a dead king by his name brings bad luck." The important stuff is exposited as a matter of the story's course. You're not constantly wondering who you are, what you're trying to do or why. You could go through the entire story never hearing the word "Hyne" once and you wouldn't be any worse for it.

You can choose not to listen to Zell talk about Timber's history, and choose not to read the Information tutorials, and sure, it means you'll have less of an idea about why everyone in town is a current or former resistance member, but it won't impact your ability to invest in or understand the main plot. I guess what I mean is that it's complementary information rather than crucial information.

Another example: "Moombas remember people by licking their blood" omg that explains that thing!! about as satisfactorily as not explaining it at all. I figured they had the same eyes, or all white dudes look the same to moombas.

I imagine XIII is the kind of game that's also better the second time around. The datalog, though, is a band apart from VIII. Chalk it up to expensive voice acting destroying the length of a Final Fantasy plot, I suppose.
 
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Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
*shrug* I dunno, if your boyfriend failed to graduate so hard he spent the cocktail party in detention, would you want to dance with a chode?

Not really the point, even if it WAS the context behind her choice.

Imagine you're 'that one guy' who gets good or average grades that nobody notices.

All of a sudden a random hotty comes out of nowhere, has no affiliation with the school and picks "Mister Brick Wall" for a Dance partner OVER you who has been working hard all this long while (but because you're an NPC you're treated less than dirt). And she has the gall to say STONEFACE is the most attractive guy in the room.

I mean, really?

How would that make you feel?
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Wait, Needa was at that party?? I didn't even notice him there! Man, Cid was right, that kid just don't stand out.

The context behind Rinoa's choice was that she was unpartnered on the dance floor and saw a shooting star, she noticed a young man, also unpartnered and gazing up. Nowhere in this scene is she friend-zoning a nerd. So, um, what exactly is your beef?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I can't speak for anybody else, but I've never asked to see a chick's transcripts before asking her out.

Not that Rinoa even did that much here.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I think she knew of Seifer's dislike for Squall and purposely went to him to get to Seifer, then ended up liking him.

Interesting. I don't see any evidence, though, and it's a bit bitchier than I imagine the earnest and idealistic Rinoa to be. What's your reasoning?

Edit: Blade, you deserve more than just a glib response from me. I don't have to imagine the scenario you describe, I only have to remember it. I've been that guy, and yes, it feels bad to be rejected, but let me be clear: THAT IS IN NO WAY THE GIRL'S FAULT OR RESPONSIBILITY. Does it feel fair that most people's first attractions are based on aesthetics? No. But that's how humans work. It shouldn't be "annoying" when girls pursue who they find attractive. It should be celebrated! Only a few decades ago, girls approaching guys was pretty much a social faux-pas. We're not living in the past, women don't exist to be courted by men, so when women are the pursuers, it's actually a load off for guys like me (paralyzed by the thought of rejection.)

Human attraction is a cosmic improbability, and it rarely (if ever) goes both ways. It's not our duty to engage with people who we don't have sizzle with -- in fact, I would prefer not to be danced with/dated out of pity or some lofty equal-opportunity ideal. I want to dance with someone who feels "Fuck yeah!" about the idea -- something that did eventually happen to me and made me forget completely about all the hotties who passed me by.

Thirdly, ballroom dancing is about aesthetics. Rinoa was not there to talk to Squall. In fact, as soon as he went to say something to her, she was all "brb!" and disappeared forever. Why on Hyne's blue earth would she be interested in his work ethic or personality? She was looking for a dance partner, not a friend. A bit of harmless flirting, and a fun few minutes on the dance floor with a strapping young man. (The same day she convinced Cid to give her SeeD on the cheap! Rinoa was on fire, you go girl!) I see nothing in this scenario that is annoying or mean. If an out-of-frame NPC were to expect a stranger to do more for THEM, that's textbook entitlement and a symptom of the rape culture our society suffers from.
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Was there any crucial information in 13's Datalog that you couldn't get in the main plot? It was mostly background or recaps.

I read a theory once about that dance.

Rinoa goes to a party, sees a depressed looking man drinking in the corner with a fresh facial scar.She goes over to him and opens with 'you're the best looking guy here' to reassure him that he's not disfigured. Don't think I believe this, but it's an option.
 

Kuja9001

Ooooh Salty!
AKA
roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
I wish we had gotten some type of origin on the GFs.

How could scientists capture a big badass like Bahamut of all guys?
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Was there any crucial information in 13's Datalog that you couldn't get in the main plot? It was mostly background or recaps.

Eventually the story gives you the jist of it but the datalog will help you understand what l'Cie, fal'Cie, Pulse and Cocoon are right away so you are not lost in the dialogue for the first two chapters.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The closing segments of XIII's story still remain relegated to Ultimanias for explanation, though. That's pretty unacceptable, and I say that as someone who likes XIII's cast and story more than most FF fans.

I wish we had gotten some type of origin on the GFs.

How could scientists capture a big badass like Bahamut of all guys?

While I don't have an actual answer to this question, since you bring it up, I wrote something several years ago (the article from this document entitled "Enigma of the Deep Sea Research Center") on the interplay of magic and science in FFVIII that I think you might get something out of -- and maybe you'll have feedback for me that I would gain further insight from.

I won't ask you to take the time to read the whole thing unless you think it will strike your fancy, but this excerpt from the end will, I think, highlight my general thought process where Bahamut and such are concerned:

Starting with Final Fantasy VI, each title in the numbered, main
series shifted progressively further from the traditional fantasy
settings that had adorned the classic installments. Indeed, as
TheOnionKnight observed, Final Fantasy VIII featured the most
technologically advanced setting of any Final Fantasy at that point
in time -- a trend not universally well received by longtime fans
of the series, even among those who liked VI, VII and VIII.

FFVIII was the greatest departure from tradition yet seen. Despite
FFVI's steampunk setting, that title still offered a number of
elements that planted it squarely amongst its predecessors. Airships
still looked like flying versions of ancient marine vessels, crystals
still figured in prominently, and -- perhaps most importantly -- magic
was still abundant, even if it had begun to lose its typically
primordial place in the setting.

With FFVI, in fact, the supernatural had begun to find itself not so much
supplanted by technology, but co-opted by it. While those with the innate
ability to use magic were relatively few, technology allowed the
possibility for anyone to possess it. Not only Magitek Knights such as
Kefka and Celes, but ordinary citizens of Vector -- children even, such
as the one who will use Cure on the player's party -- had been infused
with magical power from magicite crystals.

Even in the cyberpunk setting of FFVII with its mako reactors, mega
corporation Shin-Ra, and technology that made launching a manned
rocket into space a possibility, magic was part of people's daily
lives. Anyone could buy and sell materia crystals, and -- like the
Magitek Knights of FFVI -- Shin-Ra's elite SOLDIER unit was comprised
of individuals infused with the same raw power found in crystals.

The magical energy coursing through the planet even powered everything
in FFVII's world, from cars to televisions and lightbulbs. The worldwide
infrastructure was entirely dependent on magic, even in smaller towns.

And yet, the eldritch was even further subsumed by the technological
here.

That brings us then to FFVIII. Technology is advanced and plentiful.
It also, by and large, runs in much the way one would expect to find it
in the real world. No mako-powered cars here -- they burn gasoline.
Trains travel across an entire continent, while chocobos live in the
wilderness and would hardly be considered practical for travel. And more
than something long aspired to and just within reach, breaching the
atmosphere with a manmade vessel before returning safely to the earth
is easily performed.

It should come as little surprise, then, that in this Final Fantasy
world closest to our own, magic is widely shunned, and those who
possess it inherently are feared and outcast.

Though it still maintains a presence amongst military units, this magic
("para-magic" as it's known) was produced by Dr. Odine studying the
witch embodiment and developing a mechanism to simulate the real thing.
It's not nearly so potent, however. Squall's in-game study panel even
says "it is difficult to achieve power levels that are comparable to
conventional weapons" with it unless it's used in conjunction with
Guardian Forces.

And that's just the beginning of how magic has been relegated to the
bench in the society. As TheOnionKnight noted in the discussion that
led to this article, Guardian Forces can be housed in computers,
the powers of those with inherent magical abilities can be simulated
by machines, and magic in general is approached scientifically -- and
in that context, it's not even considered real magic within the
setting itself.

All that in mind, let's look at the following numbered entry in the
Final Fantasy series. With FFIX, we saw a return to the classic
style of world establishment, as well as its standardized themes. This
is readily apparent even in the marketing tagline attached to the game
in North America: "The Crystal Comes Back."

Indeed, this underscores the minimal role crystals have in FFVIII's
world. Other than the Crystal Pillar, they barely figure in at all.
The crystals that appear in the Deep Sea Deposit and resonate when the
hoist on the final level of the area is activated are the only others of
any significance to be found in the game's world.

Though their resonance before Ultima Weapon appears led these authors
to the conclusion that the hoist was trying to pull a larger crystal out
of the water, even were its presence confirmed, magic is still relegated
not to the backseat, but to the trunk. And all the while, the treasure that
lay so near at the bottom of the Deposit remains out of reach. Neither
Squall and co. nor the player is ever rewarded for their efforts with
knowledge of what the lost facility researchers had found.

But suppose for a moment it is a crystal -- one that remains lost amid
all this other loss of the truly mystical in FFVIII's world, the title
before FFIX, where "The Crystal [Came] Back."

Has a discernable message of some sort begun to emerge from the
seemingly aimless elements that were thrown at us with the Deep Sea
Research Center? Was this area the developers' way of acknowledging and
commenting upon the shift Final Fantasy had taken from its roots? As
they would know what we would see with the next entry in the series,
were they saying something about where Final Fantasy had come from,
where it had gone, and where it was going?

Examining the story's ironies, it seems quite possible.

Despite the loss of the Ragnarok 17 years earlier, Esthar had since
established a comfortable presence in space, and humanity's greatest
living enemy -- a witch, of course -- had been set there like a trophy
on a wall. On Battleship Island, even the majestic Bahamut -- a classic
staple of the series, routinely among its most powerful presences, and
an ever-applicable example of its more fantastical side -- had been
subdued, stuck in a test tube like a science experiment, and placed at
the gate as though he were the facility's leashed guard dog.

After being referred to as a GF at the beginning of the battle with him,
Bahamut even expresses fear of Squall and his companions: "...GF? I...?
Using my powers... It is you humans... I fear..."

From this, TheOnionKnight made the following observations:

"Bahamut expresses disdain at being called a 'GF.' That's another
scientific term. He considers himself to be something greater than the
term denotes. And yet he also fears the term 'GF' being applied to him.
His Yoda-speak can be reconfigured to say 'I fear you humans using my
powers.' Take note of the word 'fear.' Humans don't anger him. They
actually make him fearful. Science has already conquered and contained
him in his cylinder. He's also saying that he's afraid of humans when
they use his powers (or powers like his, from other GFs). Humans have
become stronger by harnessing Bahamut's magical kin. There is a
paradigm shift going on that makes Bahamut nervous. But his opinions
are perhaps outdated. GFs are already harnessed. He simply hasn't
seen how widespread this practice has become, because he's been trapped
in a tube for unknown years."

Yet here in the ocean's depths, something more primal still reigns, and
it bears little concern for the technological advancements men bring
with them.

Whatever the researchers found, their undersea towers, test tubes,
steam pressure-controlled locks, and other sophisticated equipment
hadn't mattered. They had entered a realm only a sorceress would have
been at home in. Unable to control this newest discovery, they faded
into history as soundly as the fantastical had everywhere else in the
world.

After traversing the ancient ruins concealed in the Deposit in search of
its secrets, Squall and co. expect to discover a treasure of some sort --
but neither they nor the player is granted any such thing. While true that
the game's most powerful Guardian Force, Eden, can be drawn from Ultima
Weapon, the same GF can be acquired from Tiamat in Ultimecia's Castle.
Once Bahamut has been acquired, there is very little rewarding a player
who decides to fully complete the sidequest.

Perhaps the GF -- who is itself quite the perplexing figure -- is even a
hint to the theme we've begun to explore. Though often assumed to be of
some relation to the Garden and SeeD taxonomy, as a reference to the
mythical Garden of Eden, there's nothing else associating the naming
scheme with Eden. But there may be a little more tying it to this theme
in light of what we've uncovered in our analysis.

For all their trouble in getting to the bottom floor of this lost
realm (another tie to the Garden of Eden?) in which men have no place
trespassing, Squall and co. are greeted as one could expect to be if
approaching the mythical Eden: with the point of a sword and a mighty
foe.


Though Squall and co. do manage to conquer the powerful beast Ultima
Weapon, firmly positioning them as the most powerful living creatures
in the Deposit, they move no closer to unearthing the facility's lost
secrets. The question, posed to us, is left for us to answer.

Have we found the answer in a theme of calling our attention to magic's
triumph over technology before Final Fantasy turned its attention back
to magic? While we cannot say for sure, this author feels confident that
we have at least found one answer.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Had she seen Seifer's scar at this point?

Maybe, if she went to see him before the field exam.

Eventually the story gives you the jist of it but the datalog will help you understand what l'Cie, fal'Cie, Pulse and Cocoon are right away so you are not lost in the dialogue for the first two chapters.

If you know what the word 'purge' means, you get the gist very early.

Better to die than get sent to Pulse.

On behalf of Cocoon citizens...I would like to thank our brave Pulse pioneers...and express our best wishes for a successful relocation. Your noble and selfless sacrifice ensures the continued safety and peace of our society. Were it not for this remarkable gesture, every resident of Cocoon, your family, your friends, your neighbors, would be exposed to the dangers of the world below. By choosing to leave, you participate in this migration

Even soldiers know not to go near the fal'Cie. You become a Pulse l'Cie, and you're finished.
When a person gets cursed by the fal'Cie, they become l'Cie. Then they get given a Focus, right? How do I put this? If they don't carry it out, l'Cie end up as one of those things. What I'm saying is, if your sister's gone that far...I mean--! She might still--! How can I--? Oh, man There's no way to turn a l'Cie back into human. Even if she completes her Focus, there's no changing her fate. She'll live her life as a fal'Cie slave.

Why is she turning into crystal?
Hope: l'Cie who full their Focus are transformed into crystal and gain eternal life.

Hope: So this...is the fal'Cie...?
Snow: Serah's a crystal now. You gave her a Focus. and she did it

The gist is there from the beginning, and we get details as soon as they're relevant. As soon as we meet a Cie'th, Sazh explains what it is. As soon as Serah turns to crystal, it's explained why.

We're not told exactly what Pulse is, but we know people don't want to sent there. Nearly the first line in chapter 2 is about Fal'Cie making L'Cie.

I definitely prefer this style of storytelling than "I can't believe it's been 500 years since the war of the Magi."

As for the ending, it isn't explained, but we do get a short term wrong explanation because the characters have no way of knowing.
Turning back from Cie'th is assumed to be more "Fal'Cie smoke and mirrors.", and since we see a fair few illusions through the game, it's a decent assumption. And returning from crystal is implied to be Vanille and Fang's intervention, thanks to her narration 'wake up' just before they decrystallise.

Turns out to be the wrong explanation, but they gave one before they knew there were going to be sequels.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I definitely prefer this style of storytelling than "I can't believe it's been 500 years since the war of the Magi."

There's a balance to be struck between the two imo. Despite the occasional bump, I think FF8 accomplished this very smoothly -- notably when introducing the concept of "The Sorceress." President Delong (up until this point the Big Bad) announces his pick for ambassador with just "The Sorceress." No name, a definitive article, clearly most people watching would understand instantly who he meant, even though the player hadn't heard word one about it. It's already ominous before her sudden appearance to ensnare Seifer, which cements her villainy. Very clear storytelling, letting us know that there is a powerful and famous witch out there, and it's exposited through the new development of her joining the enemy.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
"I've arranged a mediation between us (the United States) and the Soviet Union. The mediator will be Hitler."
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Wait, Needa was at that party?? I didn't even notice him there! Man, Cid was right, that kid just don't stand out.

This just hit the nail on the head about how I felt about the situation in general. I'm like Needa in that respect too.

You have a point about flirting and meeting up, although to be fair most everyone in the room DID couple-up for the Dance, so that's a good thing in the end.

Just... someday I wanna be PICKED too!
 
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