Final Fantasy XII
- Thread starter Tennyo
- Start date
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Re: FF12
Their faces aren't shaped the same, the eyes, nose, and chin are pretty different, and one's hair style is distinctly more curly and full.
I can see a little similarity but nothing significant. Maybe you want it to be more than a coincidence?
Their faces aren't shaped the same, the eyes, nose, and chin are pretty different, and one's hair style is distinctly more curly and full.
I can see a little similarity but nothing significant. Maybe you want it to be more than a coincidence?
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Re: FF12
Vayne's face is more angular and the other guy's brow is much more blocky.
I'm sorry but I just don't see it, and the hair style is not the same shape. The other guy's hair is clearly more curly.
Vayne's face is more angular and the other guy's brow is much more blocky.
I'm sorry but I just don't see it, and the hair style is not the same shape. The other guy's hair is clearly more curly.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Re: FF12
I'm not really the type to grasp at straws. I would be willing to say their appearance is coincidence, but then I started to consider the other factors I posted:
* Both Emperors.
* Both martial artists (I was hella surprised to see Vayne was a monk) aaaand...
* Both defied God(s).
I guess the only way to know would be to ask Yoshida-san!
"Dacon" said:
I'm not really the type to grasp at straws. I would be willing to say their appearance is coincidence, but then I started to consider the other factors I posted:
* Both Emperors.
* Both martial artists (I was hella surprised to see Vayne was a monk) aaaand...
* Both defied God(s).
I guess the only way to know would be to ask Yoshida-san!
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=pornography link=topic=340.msg28380#msg28380 date=1236483343]...and the reasoning behind the villain's evildoing.[/quote]
It took me a while to figure this one out, but I'm not saying that it's the full or real reasons; Vayne's father ordered him to kill his two older brothers. The two eldest sons of Emperor Gramis were against their father, in some shape and/or form. He sent Vayne out, with the specific orders to kill them. That undoubtably would put a knot into anyone's psyche, especially a very young person's. Also, the truth is not known to everyone - some believe Vayne just took it upon himself to eliminate his older brothers - but it is not so.
Vayne's whole life seems to have been pushed and pulled towards fighting, being a tool for the Empire's want and/or need to conquest and control. Again, please remember, he's a young man, and already considered to be an exemplary and powerful general. The Resistance, Rozzaria, even the Empire itself knows this fact, respecting and fearing it for what it is. Now, we don't have full proof that his 'whole life' has been set forth for war, but with some background details given in both writing and in game, I'm sure I'm not off mark.
This leaves why he was set to believe a course against the Occurians was the way to go. I don't know this one, and I haven't seen anything in the game to really hint at this. I will put forth a guess that it's 1) the work of Vanat, and her (?) opinions on the matter, that strongly influence him as well as 2) being an intelligent man, also a friend of the scientist, and head of Draklor Laboratories, Cidolfus Bunansa, he favored a future of life (especially Humes) making their own choices and future. These two guesses aren't inherently bad, I feel. It's just that it seems without the Occurians, who knew the most, if not everything about the powerful stones of Ivalice, no living creature would be really able to master control over such power. Again, that's a guess, as I don't know for sure.
Also, please remember that Vanat wanted the stones' destruction... Vayne's quest did complete that much.
Alright, this is long, but as I understand it:
Basically - the story is complex, and 'little things' amount to 'big things' when grouped with the other characters' events in the story. Truly, nothing can be left out, because it's most likely a reason to the climatic battle that takes place at the very end...
Reks was Vaan's older brother, but he died at Nalbina Fortress, when he came across his companions slaughtered by who he thought was Basch. Two years pass and we learn ti was not so, a ruse used by Basch's twin brother, Gabranth (Noah), who held animosity towards his brother for something that happened in their own home land of Landis. Basch was consequently deemed a traitor by the Marquis of Bhujerba and imprisoned by the Empire. Vayne either did not know himself, or he went along with this ruse for the purpose of conquest. To be true, I don't know why Vayne would go along, and so only can guess it's to put an end to the war. So going back two years, King Raminas of Dalmasca was killed; shortly before him and his agreement to surrender, his new son-in-law, the Crown Prince of Nabudis, Dalmasca's sister-country, was shot in the chest by an arrow and died. Dalmasca surrundered without terms, the Marquis of Bhujerba, Halim Ondore, oversaw it. Now, going to two years in the future again, Vaan is an orphan; so are a lot of the children, as well as his friend Penelo. While they're all somewhat looked after (Penelo mostly) by the Bangaa shop keeper Migelo, the children look up to Vaan (and again, Penelo) as something like leaders. Vaan and his friends feel there's really no way to live except to steal; without remore, they target imperial soldiers. Underground, hidden by in form and by a disguise of Ondore's making that she committed suicide, the Princess of Dalmasca, Ashe, lives - a part of the resistance, protected fiercely by Vosler, a loyal guard and knight of Dalmasca. Vaan gets it into his head to raid the palace on the night of the welcome fete for the new consul, who happens to be Vayne. During his raid, he runs into Balthier and Fran; the son of Cidolfus Bunansa, who we learn years ago, even before the war, changed and became obsessed with nethicite - and became influenced, if not possessed, by Vanat, and a Viera who left her homeland 50 years ago for the world beyond the forest...
The events just snow ball one into the other, one leading into the other.
[quote author=pornography link=topic=340.msg28380#msg28380 date=1236483343]...and the reasoning behind the villain's evildoing.[/quote]
It took me a while to figure this one out, but I'm not saying that it's the full or real reasons; Vayne's father ordered him to kill his two older brothers. The two eldest sons of Emperor Gramis were against their father, in some shape and/or form. He sent Vayne out, with the specific orders to kill them. That undoubtably would put a knot into anyone's psyche, especially a very young person's. Also, the truth is not known to everyone - some believe Vayne just took it upon himself to eliminate his older brothers - but it is not so.
Vayne's whole life seems to have been pushed and pulled towards fighting, being a tool for the Empire's want and/or need to conquest and control. Again, please remember, he's a young man, and already considered to be an exemplary and powerful general. The Resistance, Rozzaria, even the Empire itself knows this fact, respecting and fearing it for what it is. Now, we don't have full proof that his 'whole life' has been set forth for war, but with some background details given in both writing and in game, I'm sure I'm not off mark.
This leaves why he was set to believe a course against the Occurians was the way to go. I don't know this one, and I haven't seen anything in the game to really hint at this. I will put forth a guess that it's 1) the work of Vanat, and her (?) opinions on the matter, that strongly influence him as well as 2) being an intelligent man, also a friend of the scientist, and head of Draklor Laboratories, Cidolfus Bunansa, he favored a future of life (especially Humes) making their own choices and future. These two guesses aren't inherently bad, I feel. It's just that it seems without the Occurians, who knew the most, if not everything about the powerful stones of Ivalice, no living creature would be really able to master control over such power. Again, that's a guess, as I don't know for sure.
Also, please remember that Vanat wanted the stones' destruction... Vayne's quest did complete that much.
Alright, this is long, but as I understand it:
Basically - the story is complex, and 'little things' amount to 'big things' when grouped with the other characters' events in the story. Truly, nothing can be left out, because it's most likely a reason to the climatic battle that takes place at the very end...
Reks was Vaan's older brother, but he died at Nalbina Fortress, when he came across his companions slaughtered by who he thought was Basch. Two years pass and we learn ti was not so, a ruse used by Basch's twin brother, Gabranth (Noah), who held animosity towards his brother for something that happened in their own home land of Landis. Basch was consequently deemed a traitor by the Marquis of Bhujerba and imprisoned by the Empire. Vayne either did not know himself, or he went along with this ruse for the purpose of conquest. To be true, I don't know why Vayne would go along, and so only can guess it's to put an end to the war. So going back two years, King Raminas of Dalmasca was killed; shortly before him and his agreement to surrender, his new son-in-law, the Crown Prince of Nabudis, Dalmasca's sister-country, was shot in the chest by an arrow and died. Dalmasca surrundered without terms, the Marquis of Bhujerba, Halim Ondore, oversaw it. Now, going to two years in the future again, Vaan is an orphan; so are a lot of the children, as well as his friend Penelo. While they're all somewhat looked after (Penelo mostly) by the Bangaa shop keeper Migelo, the children look up to Vaan (and again, Penelo) as something like leaders. Vaan and his friends feel there's really no way to live except to steal; without remore, they target imperial soldiers. Underground, hidden by in form and by a disguise of Ondore's making that she committed suicide, the Princess of Dalmasca, Ashe, lives - a part of the resistance, protected fiercely by Vosler, a loyal guard and knight of Dalmasca. Vaan gets it into his head to raid the palace on the night of the welcome fete for the new consul, who happens to be Vayne. During his raid, he runs into Balthier and Fran; the son of Cidolfus Bunansa, who we learn years ago, even before the war, changed and became obsessed with nethicite - and became influenced, if not possessed, by Vanat, and a Viera who left her homeland 50 years ago for the world beyond the forest...
The events just snow ball one into the other, one leading into the other.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Re: FF12
I think you misinterpreted this. I thought the reference to his brothers alluded to the fact Vayne framed them so that he could dispose of his competition. Remember Drace says "Surely you do not think his brothers were traitors?" That suggests to me that something was amiss.
I think you misinterpreted this. I thought the reference to his brothers alluded to the fact Vayne framed them so that he could dispose of his competition. Remember Drace says "Surely you do not think his brothers were traitors?" That suggests to me that something was amiss.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28564#msg28564 date=1236553856]
I think you misinterpreted this. I thought the reference to his brothers alluded to the fact Vayne framed them so that he could dispose of his competition. Remember Drace says "Surely you do not think his brothers were traitors?" That suggests to me that something was amiss.
[/quote]
You may be right, but the few sources I read said that his father ordered him to kill his two brothers. They were reported to be 'against the emperor.' It is shady to others who knew about the goings on as to what exactly happened, but it seems straight forward.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28564#msg28564 date=1236553856]
I think you misinterpreted this. I thought the reference to his brothers alluded to the fact Vayne framed them so that he could dispose of his competition. Remember Drace says "Surely you do not think his brothers were traitors?" That suggests to me that something was amiss.
[/quote]
You may be right, but the few sources I read said that his father ordered him to kill his two brothers. They were reported to be 'against the emperor.' It is shady to others who knew about the goings on as to what exactly happened, but it seems straight forward.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28571#msg28571 date=1236555432]
It was Gramis' decision, but how much of Vayne's influence played a part? Vayne convinced Dalmasca their own Captain of the guard murdered their king, I'm sure he could frame his brothers if he wanted to.
[/quote]
Eh - I see your point, but I don't believe it's the same thing. Vayne is an orator, very good at persuasion; still, I'm not sure that's what happened to bring Gramis to the decision to eradicate his own sons. :-\ Also, it was Marquis Ondore who stressed that Basch was the one who killed King Raminas and also that Ashe had killed herself. No one was really sure what was going on between Gabranth and Basch - perhaps Vayne, but we're not sure. Overall, perhaps this part of things is up to speculation...?
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28571#msg28571 date=1236555432]
It was Gramis' decision, but how much of Vayne's influence played a part? Vayne convinced Dalmasca their own Captain of the guard murdered their king, I'm sure he could frame his brothers if he wanted to.
[/quote]
Eh - I see your point, but I don't believe it's the same thing. Vayne is an orator, very good at persuasion; still, I'm not sure that's what happened to bring Gramis to the decision to eradicate his own sons. :-\ Also, it was Marquis Ondore who stressed that Basch was the one who killed King Raminas and also that Ashe had killed herself. No one was really sure what was going on between Gabranth and Basch - perhaps Vayne, but we're not sure. Overall, perhaps this part of things is up to speculation...?
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Re: FF12
Vayne is a ruthless manipulator. He murdered his own father and blamed it on the Senate in his thirst for power. It's more than likely he also signed the death warrants for his brethren.
Ondore had little choice really. He was backed into a corner by the Empire, and by having him announce the deaths of Basch & Ashe it allowed the Empire to keep him on a tight leash. For if Ondore openly opposed the Empire, they could then use Basch & Ashe's lives to defame his own credibility to the people.
Ondore: "So you [Basch] are the sword he’s strung above my head. Vayne has left not a thing to chance."
Vayne is a ruthless manipulator. He murdered his own father and blamed it on the Senate in his thirst for power. It's more than likely he also signed the death warrants for his brethren.
Ondore had little choice really. He was backed into a corner by the Empire, and by having him announce the deaths of Basch & Ashe it allowed the Empire to keep him on a tight leash. For if Ondore openly opposed the Empire, they could then use Basch & Ashe's lives to defame his own credibility to the people.
Ondore: "So you [Basch] are the sword he’s strung above my head. Vayne has left not a thing to chance."
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=340.msg28586#msg28586 date=1236558150]
Wow there are a lot of spoilers suddenly in here. :/
I'm supposed to be flying the Strahl to the lighthouse place, or whatever.
By the way, where has the Strahl been all this time? It was ditched in the desert and then it was suddenly in Barfonheim...
[/quote]
Oh... Sorry, Tennyo.
But, the lighthouse is called Pharos. On the Island which is the one piece of land by a huge waterfall called Riddorana Cataract.
Well - the Strahl will follow you.
The moogle - I forget his name now - is fixing it up. When you escaped the Leviathan, the power of the stone affected the ship.
After Pharos is when you will gain free flight via the Strahl.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28583#msg28583 date=1236557409]Vayne is a ruthless manipulator. He murdered his own father and blamed it on the Senate in his thirst for power. It's more than likely he also signed the death warrants for his brethren.[/quote]
I am not sure any of us can be sure of the facts; though, I will say he's persuasive. And the senate was against Vayne, thinking they could get power in over Larsa as Gramis' successor. They were the ones who set Larsa to investigating his brother's doing - in effect, trying to set brother against brother (a scenario playing out in that family, again). Do I believe Vayne is evil? I can't say that for sure; I think his personal story is much more complex than that.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28583#msg28583 date=1236557409]Ondore had little choice really. He was backed into a corner by the Empire, and by having him announce the deaths of Basch & Ashe it allowed the Empire to keep him on a tight leash. For if Ondore openly opposed the Empire, they could then use Basch & Ashe's lives to defame his own credibility to the people. ... Ondore: "So you [Basch] are the sword he’s strung above my head. Vayne has left not a thing to chance."[/quote]
Okay, that's what he's saying - sometimes it's hard to follow the story and what everyone's saying. I can agree with you here. I do recall the scene, and I do agree with you that Ondore had to keep his consul, bite his tongue and bide his time. Like everyone, he had to keep resistance well hidden.
So why then do I not agree with your first statement(s)? Because I don't see Vayne's personal story as being one sided. I think he was led to be the man he is, and when everyone saw what they 'created' in him - they became afraid. Am I saying he had no ambition - I can't say that. He did make an autonomous state after Gramis was killed...
I'm just different in my thinking. I feel that Vayne was acting more to get rid of those who were against him. I don't know, you may be right. Again, I just feel it's not so black or white.
[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=340.msg28586#msg28586 date=1236558150]
Wow there are a lot of spoilers suddenly in here. :/
I'm supposed to be flying the Strahl to the lighthouse place, or whatever.
By the way, where has the Strahl been all this time? It was ditched in the desert and then it was suddenly in Barfonheim...
[/quote]
Oh... Sorry, Tennyo.
But, the lighthouse is called Pharos. On the Island which is the one piece of land by a huge waterfall called Riddorana Cataract.
Well - the Strahl will follow you.
The moogle - I forget his name now - is fixing it up. When you escaped the Leviathan, the power of the stone affected the ship.After Pharos is when you will gain free flight via the Strahl.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28583#msg28583 date=1236557409]Vayne is a ruthless manipulator. He murdered his own father and blamed it on the Senate in his thirst for power. It's more than likely he also signed the death warrants for his brethren.[/quote]
I am not sure any of us can be sure of the facts; though, I will say he's persuasive. And the senate was against Vayne, thinking they could get power in over Larsa as Gramis' successor. They were the ones who set Larsa to investigating his brother's doing - in effect, trying to set brother against brother (a scenario playing out in that family, again). Do I believe Vayne is evil? I can't say that for sure; I think his personal story is much more complex than that.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28583#msg28583 date=1236557409]Ondore had little choice really. He was backed into a corner by the Empire, and by having him announce the deaths of Basch & Ashe it allowed the Empire to keep him on a tight leash. For if Ondore openly opposed the Empire, they could then use Basch & Ashe's lives to defame his own credibility to the people. ... Ondore: "So you [Basch] are the sword he’s strung above my head. Vayne has left not a thing to chance."[/quote]
Okay, that's what he's saying - sometimes it's hard to follow the story and what everyone's saying. I can agree with you here. I do recall the scene, and I do agree with you that Ondore had to keep his consul, bite his tongue and bide his time. Like everyone, he had to keep resistance well hidden.
So why then do I not agree with your first statement(s)? Because I don't see Vayne's personal story as being one sided. I think he was led to be the man he is, and when everyone saw what they 'created' in him - they became afraid. Am I saying he had no ambition - I can't say that. He did make an autonomous state after Gramis was killed...
I'm just different in my thinking. I feel that Vayne was acting more to get rid of those who were against him. I don't know, you may be right. Again, I just feel it's not so black or white.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Re: FF12
[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=340.msg28586#msg28586 date=1236558150]
Wow there are a lot of spoilers suddenly in here. :/
I'm supposed to be flying the Strahl to the lighthouse place, or whatever.
By the way, where has the Strahl been all this time? It was ditched in the desert and then it was suddenly in Barfonheim...
[/quote]
I guess everyone just forgets about Nono...
[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=340.msg28586#msg28586 date=1236558150]
Wow there are a lot of spoilers suddenly in here. :/
I'm supposed to be flying the Strahl to the lighthouse place, or whatever.
By the way, where has the Strahl been all this time? It was ditched in the desert and then it was suddenly in Barfonheim...
[/quote]
I guess everyone just forgets about Nono...
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Re: FF12
Sorry about the spoilers, Tenny. It's slipped my mind. ^^;
If Vayne's brothers threatened his own ascension to the throne, which is most likely the case, then it stands to reason Gramis executed them under Vayne's influence.
Also, your theory is flawed, because King Raminas was preparing to sign Dalmasca's surrender but because Vayne wanted power for himself he created an elaborate ruse to remove the King and defame Basch. That wasn't necessary to protect himself, he did it out of ambition.
There isn't anything that conclusively proves they weren't traitors, but based on what we know of Vayne's character, as well as the script, we can safely assume that he framed his brothers. FFXII doesn't like to spoonfeed some of the subplots to you, it gives the audience the credit to work things out for themselves.
Sorry about the spoilers, Tenny. It's slipped my mind. ^^;
"Arianna" said:
If Vayne's brothers threatened his own ascension to the throne, which is most likely the case, then it stands to reason Gramis executed them under Vayne's influence.
Also, your theory is flawed, because King Raminas was preparing to sign Dalmasca's surrender but because Vayne wanted power for himself he created an elaborate ruse to remove the King and defame Basch. That wasn't necessary to protect himself, he did it out of ambition.
There isn't anything that conclusively proves they weren't traitors, but based on what we know of Vayne's character, as well as the script, we can safely assume that he framed his brothers. FFXII doesn't like to spoonfeed some of the subplots to you, it gives the audience the credit to work things out for themselves.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28691#msg28691 date=1236595717]Also, your theory is flawed, because King Raminas was preparing to sign Dalmasca's surrender but because Vayne wanted power for himself he created an elaborate ruse to remove the King and defame Basch. That wasn't necessary to protect himself, he did it out of ambition.[/quote]
You forget Gabranth, who wanted to get back at his identical twin brother for whatever happened during the last hours in and of Landis. He was the one who killed the king and led all to believe it was Basch. Where's Vayne's part in that? I'm not so sure.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28691#msg28691 date=1236595717]Also, your theory is flawed, because King Raminas was preparing to sign Dalmasca's surrender but because Vayne wanted power for himself he created an elaborate ruse to remove the King and defame Basch. That wasn't necessary to protect himself, he did it out of ambition.[/quote]
You forget Gabranth, who wanted to get back at his identical twin brother for whatever happened during the last hours in and of Landis. He was the one who killed the king and led all to believe it was Basch. Where's Vayne's part in that? I'm not so sure.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Re: FF12
Vayne was there right with Gabranth. It was all his idea.
Vayne was there right with Gabranth. It was all his idea.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=340.msg28811#msg28811 date=1236634809]
Vayne was there right with Gabranth. It was all his idea.
[/quote]
Vayne knew of it, I'll agree to that - for the most part; but, it can't be truly said with confidence that killing King Ramanas was his own idea. That was never fully stated. I would be more willing to guess that Vayne and Gabranth both had agendas, which fit perfectly well with each other's. I think framing Basch was all Gabranth.
Also, SE in whole doesn't like to spoonfeed us anything, hence why such things as the FFVII LTD exist... Still, there are clues and hints towards what's the answer to such questions. In this case, I don't see it as strictly Vayne's own doing. Gabranth held too much vested interest in Basch, a Knight of Dalmasca.
[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=340.msg28811#msg28811 date=1236634809]
Vayne was there right with Gabranth. It was all his idea.
[/quote]
Vayne knew of it, I'll agree to that - for the most part; but, it can't be truly said with confidence that killing King Ramanas was his own idea. That was never fully stated. I would be more willing to guess that Vayne and Gabranth both had agendas, which fit perfectly well with each other's. I think framing Basch was all Gabranth.
Also, SE in whole doesn't like to spoonfeed us anything, hence why such things as the FFVII LTD exist... Still, there are clues and hints towards what's the answer to such questions. In this case, I don't see it as strictly Vayne's own doing. Gabranth held too much vested interest in Basch, a Knight of Dalmasca.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Re: FF12
The LTD exists because of a rabid fanbase, not ambiguous writing. Cloud was living a fake life during his interactions with Aerith. When he found his true reality, he rekindled his feelings for Tifa and obviously settled down with her post-FFVII. But let's not get into all that.
Vayne calls the shots. I already explained why killing Raminas was his idea. He wanted to remove the king, so that the Empire would then be assigned full control of Dalmasca. He is such a deceptive strategist that he recognised Gabranth's hatred (and resemblance) to Basch and decided to use it to his advantage. Gabranth obviously didn't his arm twisting for that.
The LTD exists because of a rabid fanbase, not ambiguous writing. Cloud was living a fake life during his interactions with Aerith. When he found his true reality, he rekindled his feelings for Tifa and obviously settled down with her post-FFVII. But let's not get into all that.
Vayne calls the shots. I already explained why killing Raminas was his idea. He wanted to remove the king, so that the Empire would then be assigned full control of Dalmasca. He is such a deceptive strategist that he recognised Gabranth's hatred (and resemblance) to Basch and decided to use it to his advantage. Gabranth obviously didn't his arm twisting for that.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Re: FF12
You know, the more I think about it, the more Vayne and Mateus seem to have a lot in common.
You know, the more I think about it, the more Vayne and Mateus seem to have a lot in common.
Arianna
Holy, Personified
- AKA
- Katie; Seta.
Re: FF12
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28836#msg28836 date=1236636314]Vayne calls the shots. I already explained why killing Raminas was his idea. He wanted to remove the king, so that the Empire would then be assigned full control of Dalmasca. He is such a deceptive strategist that he recognised Gabranth's hatred (and resemblance) to Basch and decided to use it to his advantage. Gabranth obviously didn't his arm twisting for that.[/quote]
Where does it say that though? It's not specifically stated in the storyline (though I recall the line you quoted me from Ondore in the game). If FFXII has an Ultimania, is it in there?
I don't see it that way. I can see him knowing about it - 'cause Basch, not Gabranth ended up in Nalbina. Perhaps I'm really trying to see it your way, but I don't believe Vayne is the end all-be all of this story...
There were too many other situations and factions in action. Perhaps Vayne is as power hungry as you make him out to be - then I would have to say that's another reason why the story needs more fleshing out in my opinion. I think it could have been more clear cut without forcing it down our throats who was numero uno evil in the story.
I really don't want to back down here, because I don't feel that I'm as wrong as I'm being made out to be. Still, if it's going to cause some animosity, it's not worth it. My attitude is not towards anyone personally, but due to offline, family events from the day.
[quote author=Masamune link=topic=340.msg28836#msg28836 date=1236636314]Vayne calls the shots. I already explained why killing Raminas was his idea. He wanted to remove the king, so that the Empire would then be assigned full control of Dalmasca. He is such a deceptive strategist that he recognised Gabranth's hatred (and resemblance) to Basch and decided to use it to his advantage. Gabranth obviously didn't his arm twisting for that.[/quote]
Where does it say that though? It's not specifically stated in the storyline (though I recall the line you quoted me from Ondore in the game). If FFXII has an Ultimania, is it in there?
I don't see it that way. I can see him knowing about it - 'cause Basch, not Gabranth ended up in Nalbina. Perhaps I'm really trying to see it your way, but I don't believe Vayne is the end all-be all of this story...
Even if he's the last boss.
There were too many other situations and factions in action. Perhaps Vayne is as power hungry as you make him out to be - then I would have to say that's another reason why the story needs more fleshing out in my opinion. I think it could have been more clear cut without forcing it down our throats who was numero uno evil in the story.
I really don't want to back down here, because I don't feel that I'm as wrong as I'm being made out to be. Still, if it's going to cause some animosity, it's not worth it. My attitude is not towards anyone personally, but due to offline, family events from the day.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Re: FF12
It's said several times in the game. Especially when Gabranth reveals the fact that he was the one that did it, and Vayne discusses with Cid how all of his plans are coming to fruition in Archades. He specifically says several times he's the one that planned it all.
Gabranth is merely a dog. He is not a mastermind or schemer. The story was quite clear and definitive about what the plot was and how it went down. I don't know if you haven't played it recently or something but there's nothing to clean up. It kinda beats the whole "Vayne is the villain and plotted the death of Raminas, his brothers, his father, and the others" quite hard with a sledgehammer.
It's said several times in the game. Especially when Gabranth reveals the fact that he was the one that did it, and Vayne discusses with Cid how all of his plans are coming to fruition in Archades. He specifically says several times he's the one that planned it all.
Gabranth is merely a dog. He is not a mastermind or schemer. The story was quite clear and definitive about what the plot was and how it went down. I don't know if you haven't played it recently or something but there's nothing to clean up. It kinda beats the whole "Vayne is the villain and plotted the death of Raminas, his brothers, his father, and the others" quite hard with a sledgehammer.