Final Fantasy XIII-2

[The Twilight Mexican]

I find it hilarious that

Spoiler

the only thing people seemed to care about (that I as a casual observer picked up on) was the fate of our power lesbian couple. And they even made that the motivations of some of the characters. Then they pull the rug out from under that and go "lol nope"

.

Spoiler

That's probably the best summary of SE's failure with this game right there. The only thing anybody -- including the characters in the game -- cared about was barely even touched upon.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Judgement based on sales isn't stupid. It's how the industry runs. Shadow Hearts doesn't have the following and hardcore fans of the final fantasy franchise and so there is no comparison. This isn't some new game subcontracted out, this is a Final Fantasy and its sales are abysmal. In addition, most reviews on amazon so far have rated it under 3 stars and there seems to be consensus on the subject of the nonsensical story and weak-ass characterization.

Also, why is it stupid specifically because it's sales in another country? What? Japanese gamer reviews aren't to be trusted or something? A THIRD of the people that went out to buy 13 bought 13-2. And of that one third, MOST reviewers who shelled out hard-earned money for that shit were disappointed. So yeah. Why should I not trust over 60% losses and bad reviews? Especially since they are telling me nothing I haven't watched myself, even if I don't understand the language. I still understand cinematic cliches just fine.

The idea that you can only judge AFTER you have purchased something isn't entirely sound to me, and as someone who does do research before shelling out money willy-nilly, I have to say that reviews and sales have saved me a shitload of disappointment. FFXIII being the example. I rented and it was unplayable. In my experience, if it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit, it is most likely shit.

Anyway, I'm not saying you can't enjoy the game. I'm saying that most people seem to be of the opinion they would not (for some reason ), and the ones who did buy it seem to mostly dislike it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Idk maybe it's just me but I find it kinda silly to judge a game that hasn't been released yet in your country/haven't played? I mean, judge so harshly of course.
I mean yeah, you can watch livestreams. But you don't get the full experience until you play yourself. Or unless you understand the language.

We aren't judging the gameplay, though. As far as that goes, it looks like it's probably fun to play, and certainly every review has said it's an improvement over XIII's gameplay, which was decent to begin with (if you don't count all the missed opportunities for interactive sequences).

Unless we're talking about games like "Shadow of the Colossus" or the "Uncharted" series, where gameplay is arguably part of the story, it isn't premature to make a judgment on the content of cutscenes you can't interact with in the first place.

As far as understanding the story goes, xi-feng translated it as she played it (I'm assuming most people commenting on it have read these translations, but maybe they haven't):

http://xi-feng.livejournal.com/

And, really, even with a limited understanding of Japanese, you can understand what's going on. Knowing "mirai" ("future") alone would probably get you through most of the game.

By the way, xi-feng is also highly disappointed with the game, despite loving the gameplay, Noel and being a big fan of the first XIII. She's not even going to bother with trying to get the Paradox Endings or the Secret Ending herself. She's offered to translate any videos people link her to, though.

 

[Strangelove]

oh negativity, never leave my life ffxiii threads

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

oh negativity, never leave my life ffxiii threads

Hey, it deserves it this time.

At least the first one had lesbians.

 

[Strangelove]

I bet people thought it deserved it last time as well

Where's Mako when you need him to draw all the hate into one separate thread?

 

[Catherine]

I personally enjoyed XIII's storyline and characters, even though I can see some flaws, but I don't mind them, so I'm not afraid I might not like XIII-2's plot, 'cause I'm sure I will

I also liked XIII's gameplay, so if XIII-2's is an improved version of it, I will most likely like this game even more than the original.

Yup.

 

[Joppylop]

After reading all of this, I've honestly lost all desire to purchase this game. Luckily I won't have to waste my money on it; my brother, even though he knows I didn't really like the first game all that much, pre-ordered it for me for Christmas. Honestly, the last FF I completely enjoyed was IX (my favorite!). X was good too, but I have my issues with it. Since then, SE has released nothing but let downs.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I bet people thought it deserved it last time as well

The over 50% who didn't give a shit, ja

Where's Mako when you need him to draw all the hate into one separate thread?

Clearly not making the "Let's-point-and-laugh-at-ff13-2" thread. Lazy ass.

Since then, SE has released nothing but let downs.

Which is probably why people are being hesitant and waiting this out instead of pre-ordering everything. Can't say I blame them.

 

[Celesta]

Well, I look forward to playing this game.

With all due respect, if you cannot comprehend the language and/or only watched live streams it would be remiss of me to take your judgment seriously. And even if this isn't the case and you legitimately hated the game, to each their own.

I mean, what standard are we basing quality of game scenario on?

I liked FFXIII's scenario. In fact VII, VIII, X, and XIII were my favorite in terms of story.
Oh, and Serah? I love that girl.
It seems like people are prematurely jumping on the hate bandwagon.
::shrugs::
With all that said if I play the game and hate it, at least I would have come to that conclusion based on my own efforts.

 

[Arianna]

Pros:

~ It looks like a lot of fun with a lot of things to do.
~ I liked XIII's story for the most part; as for the characters, I do not hate anyone so much I wouldn't wish to see them again.

Cons:

~

Spoiler

No resolution readily available; no conclusion

.
~ While I do not hate her, Serah is very much a 'Mary Sue' - or at least according to what I understand the term to mean.
~ Not much more about the mythology or the fal'Cie!!!

Still getting the game. Still very excited for the game.

I am just having some apprehension and concerns over what I've seen in streams and what little some have translated.

 

[Celes Chere]

how is Serah a mary sue

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

She definitely has personality traits we typically see in such characters this time around. Maybe it's how airheaded she comes across in this game. She's so goddamn annoying. Honestly, I feel like we had a better Serah in the first game.

 

[Celes Chere]

I never saw Serah as annoying or an air head but idk, no one ever gives me an example just claims that she is one. I haven't seen a time where she has acted like one. Vanille was more like that to be honest, skipping around and being overly hyperactive. (not to say I didn't like her)

In the first game, Serah expressed concerns for Snow, her sister, and dealt with her own struggles because she was going to 'become a monster'. I don't see how that makes her a Mary Sue or a ditz. It's not really her uh, fault that she turned into a crystal and had to be saved. And I don't understand why people HATE characters that need to be rescued. omg she was turned into a crystal what a bitch

And we like, don't know enough about XIII-2 to pass a judgement, really. At least to me because I haven't seen all of the spoilers. Is there a time in XIII-2 where she acted majorly annoying or like a fuck up? Do tell. I see everyone dishing out the insults, but no one's really backing it up.

It kinda seems to me like people are just assuming
"omg a girl with pink hair and boobs she must be a dumb whore"

 

[Kobato]

Isn't Mary- Sue a term for a character that seems " Perfect " ? Serah goes through alot of troubles, and it seems like she's going to go through more in the sequel. She was worried that she was going to become a monster... that's not wonderful.

She's nice, cute, friendly and girly but there's nothing wrong with that. Serah haters complained that she was too much of a damsel in the original, she picks up a weapon and tries to fight and defend herself and now she's too " perfect " ??

asjasakasasjak..... the poor friggen girl can't win.

 

[Arianna]

I explained it before. Trying to find the post to quote myself. Found it.

She's a beautiful character to look at, and I think she's a beautiful character on the inside, too - but if she was real, I'd feel uncomfortable around her.

Dare I say she's a Mary Sue?

She's perfect in looks, she's perfect in demeanor, she has the sight that the Yuel's have, and everyone seems to love her (minus whatever the case is with Aryssa, as I've not followed XIII-2's spoilers that much).

As much as I'm not so-much a fan of Lighting, I can appreciate her character more because she's not perfect.

Being girly isn't an issue. She's just too much. I don't hate her; it's more that nothing about any of the protagonists in XIII actually called to me... if that makes any sense. XIII-2, from what I've seen, is following suit.

SE wants me to care about these individuals, but it is hard to do so.

As for the outfits, I admit it, I wish I could look so good. But, in a lot of games, I get sick and tired of having some things forced in my face and shoved down my throat. Gods forbid anyone in the gaming industry make a modestly dressed female heroine!? Besides Zelda. Final Fantasy XIII-2 is yet another, but it's not the only one I hold this gripe to.

 

[Celes Chere]

To me a Mary Sue is like, a girl like Miaka from Fushigi Yugi. Is a bright and cheery school girl that pigs out and never gets fat, goes to a mystical land where every single guy falls in love with her even the gay guy that turned out not to be gay and actually turned out to love her all along.

Or maybe like Kagome from Inuyasha.

Or Bella Swan.

So far, I believe only Snow shows romantic interest in Serah and perhaps her cat likes her too. People might ship her with Noel, but does XIII-2 actually show him fawning over her or anything like that? ;/ While Serah might not be the most developed character (in XIII at least) she definitely isn't a mary sue. She's not perfect and things aren't handed to her on a silver platter. I think most characters I consider to fit that description get things handed to them and take it for granted and no one thinks anything of it because 'o they're flawless and can do no wrong'.

Actually, I think Lightning is more like the mary sue to be honest. She's cold, badass, can seemingly beat ANYTHING in her path, is suddenly known as the chick you don't fuck with because she's just THAT awesome.

 

[Kobato]

She's perfect in looks, she's perfect in demeanor, she has the sight that the Yuel's have, and everyone seems to love her (minus whatever the case is with Aryssa, as I've not followed XIII-2's spoilers that much)..

Most FF girls are beautiful <3 Look at Terra, Celes, Tifa, Aerith, Rinoa, Garnet- list goes on xD All of them are daaaaaaam hawt


Most FF girls are usually liked, because they're kind, sweet and friendly <3 You don't dislike somebody who is nice to you, it doesn't make sense. xD

I don't remember Terra having a hater expect Kefka which is the main villain, Celes ends up being loved by most in the end though it wasn't like that in the beginning, Aerith is liked by everybody including tough guys like Cid Highwind, and I don't remember Rinoa or Dagger having haters either.

It's just Yuna, but only because Donna is a bitch.

Actually, I think Lightning is more like the mary sue to be honest. She's cold, badass, can seemingly beat ANYTHING in her path, is suddenly known as the chick you don't fuck with because she's just THAT awesome.

^ this.

 

[Arianna]

To me a Mary Sue is like, a girl like Miaka from Fushigi Yugi. Is a bright and cheery school girl that pigs out and never gets fat, goes to a mystical land where every single guy falls in love with her even the gay guy that turned out not to be gay and actually turned out to love her all along.

Or maybe like Kagome from Inuyasha.

Or Bella Swan.

So far, I believe only Snow shows romantic interest in Serah and perhaps her cat likes her too. People might ship her with Noel, but does XIII-2 actually show him fawning over her or anything like that? ;/ While Serah might not be the most developed character (in XIII at least) she definitely isn't a mary sue. She's not perfect and things aren't handed to her on a silver platter. I think most characters I consider to fit that description get things handed to them and take it for granted and no one thinks anything of it because 'o they're flawless and can do no wrong'.

Actually, I think Lightning is more like the mary sue to be honest. She's cold, badass, can seemingly beat ANYTHING in her path, is suddenly known as the chick you don't fuck with because she's just THAT awesome.

Well, I think we're coming from a similar place, but disagree on who exactly shows what traits.

I never saw Kagome from Inuyasha as a Mary Sue. In my opinion, besides the conflict of where she is in Inuyasha's heart, she also has conflicts of who she is (in regards to Kikyo definitely) and in regards to the Shikon Jewel. She doesn't act perfect, she doesn't look perfect.

The other two characters I am not familiar with, so I cannot comment (though I've heard enough about the Twilight Saga to possibly agree with you about Bella.)

Perhaps 'Mary Sue' is just a loaded phrase and perhaps it shouldn't be used so frivolously.

I think my judgement is fair. I'm prepared to (and am excited about) give(ing) the official NA (English!) version a good play through. I am probably going to like it. I just have some reservations about some issues, story-line and characters included. This is all I'm trying to say.

To be truthful, with how my history has been in regards to my reservations on games and whatnot, I usually end up at least tolerating something once I've experienced it thoroughly, so...

Most FF girls are beautiful <3 Look at Terra, Celes, Tifa, Aerith, Rinoa, Garnet- list goes on xD All of them are daaaaaaam hawt

Most FF girls are usually liked, because they're kind, sweet and friendly <3 You don't dislike somebody who is nice to you, it doesn't make sense. xD

I don't remember Terra having a hater expect Kefka which is the main villain, Celes ends up being loved by most in the end though it wasn't like that in the beginning, Aerith is liked by everybody including tough guys like Cid Highwind, and I don't remember Rinoa or Dagger having haters either.

It's just Yuna, but only because Donna is a bitch.

True.

And true again.

Who's Donna?

 

[Catherine]

Being a pretty character with a sweet, girly personality does not make you automatically a Mary Sue, you know.
Also, like Luka said, if she's mostly nice and kind to everyone she knows, why wouldn't they love her? I love a lot of people, and I know they love me back too. Does that make me a Mary Sue?

I don't think some people really know the meaning of the word lol

 

[Fangu]

I've always thought that a Mary Sue is a character who has no flaws. Which would make her "perfect" I guess, but IMO it's not about what's perfect about her, it's more about the lack of what's not perfect about her.

Does Serah show any 'bad' personality traits at all? I haven't watched the streams so I only have the trailers and XIII for reference, and she does seem a little... flat. Did she ever lash out on her sister? Be jealous? Racist? Angry? Whiney? Depressed? I have this feeling that no. That doesn't mean I don't like her, it just makes her a little... uninteresting.

The reason I loved Lightning so much was that they intentionally gave her flaws. They decided to take out parts of her personality and hand them to Fang, to make her more serious and bitchy. Does Lightning come across as overly emo? Some think so. I just thought the flaws was what made her believable, a true human character. It gives her purpose and motivation, which is so vital to a story line.

As humans we do have a lot of 'negative' emotions, and to me, for a story to be good, the characters has to do 'bad stuff' for me to believe in them, because we all have a dark side. We all have some conscious or sub-conscious motivation for the stuff we do.

For example, Light being so hard on Serah in XIII was totally believable to me but others might see that as 'unnecessary bitching'. I guess that's part of SE's challenge too, they have to write stories that fit a 14 year old as well as a 40 year old, which can't be easy.

 

[Arianna]

Being a pretty character with a sweet, girly personality does not make you automatically a Mary Sue, you know.
Also, like Luka said, if she's mostly nice and kind to everyone she knows, why wouldn't they love her? I love a lot of people, and I know they love me back too. Does that make me a Mary Sue? ... I don't think some people really know the meaning of the word lol

I do my best to be a kind person to people. I do my best to help out when and where I can. Not everyone loves me.

Does Serah show any 'bad' personality traits at all? I haven't watched the streams so I only have the trailers and XIII for reference, and she does seem a little... flat. Did she ever lash out on her sister? Be jealous? Racist? Angry? Whiney? Depressed? I have this feeling that no. That doesn't mean I don't like her, it just makes her a little... uninteresting.

^ My point.

Honestly, part of my gripe is that she's beautiful to boot. Seriously, I doubt many - even here in this thread - would love her so much if she wasn't so physically perfect. That's general psychology though.

 

[Catherine]

I do my best to be a kind person to people. I do my best to help out when and where I can. Not everyone loves me.

That's not exactly what I meant though. I probably didn't explain myself well. Of course there will always be someone who's going to dislike you for whatever reason, but my point is, a lot of people seem to think that the definition of Mary Sue is someone who is liked/loved by everyone, which I think is stupid. I'm not saying I know the real meaning of Mary Sue, because honestly, people use it so much that I don't even know anymore, but I'm pretty sure being loved by many is not enough reason to be called a Mary Sue.

About the being 'flawless' thing, I don't believe Serah is perfect, but someone else already pointed out the reasons why. If we're talking about physical appearance though, then yes, but then again, aren't all the FF characters physically perfect, or at least close to it? We all know this series is full of good looking people, that's not a surprise.

 

[Celesta]

I will preface this by stating that with regards to sophistication/maturity of characters and plot; this is Final Fantasy, not Tolstoy.
I believe the only Final Fantasy I played that really floored me in terms of maturity and sophistication of scenario/characters was Final Fantasy Tactics (followed by 7 probably). Unfortunately I have not really played anything before 7 as of yet so I cannot really judge them.
I think FFXII could have been great as well if SE had the gumption to make Basch the main character.
Even so, I don't think Iv'e hated any Final Fantasy character even at times when I found the story lacking. I believe they have always done this right.
And I think someone like Rinoa fits the Mary-sue character profile more than Serah anyway.

As I initially played FFXIII, my impression of Serah didn't amount to much because the game didn't give us much before she fell quickly into crystal stasis. What we learned about her only came through flash backs and/or the ruminations of Snow and Lightning. Within the game, her decision to break up with Snow after being branded in a meager attempt to protect him and her interaction with Vanille did reveal maturity and depth of character. Or at least I though so.
Also, I somewhat liked Serah after playing the game but reading episode 0 & i and listening to the drama CD made me really love her. It made me wish she was featured more in the game itself as opposed to being delegated to the role of sleeping beauty. So I was happy to find out she would be taking the lead in the sequel.

Yes; she is cute, feminine, and caring. She also intelligent, treasures the people close to her, and has an admirable sense of resilience, more positive traits. She does however come across as naive/childish and sheltered. I have avoided spoilers so I think it will be interesting for me to see how her character develops in this sequel.

 

[Celes Chere]

I never saw Kagome from Inuyasha as a Mary Sue. In my opinion, besides the conflict of where she is in Inuyasha's heart, she also has conflicts of who she is (in regards to Kikyo definitely) and in regards to the Shikon Jewel. She doesn't act perfect, she doesn't look perfect.

Well that's my point, a Mary Sue doesn't necessarily have to look and act perfect, but everyone around her thinks that she is. Aside from Kikyo, everyone around Kagome treats her like she's some kind of princess, and I can list at least three guys head over heels for her. Even Naraku notices her *AMAZING* power, and also, she is the only one that can face off to him every time the party goes to duel him while she is unable to do ANYTHING against the lesser demons in the series (most of the time). It just doesn't make any sense. I think I agree with you there though, Mary Sue could probably mean a lot of different things to others.

I find Lightning to be the boring one, to be honest, lol. I don't get why people dislike sweet characters (Serah, Kairi, Kyrie as examples) and will make up excuses not to like them. "Oh, she's so stupid! etc" If you find them boring that's fine, but a sweet/boring character doesn't make that character stupid. Unless there's a reason. But that's my opinion.

And I think someone like Rinoa fits the Mary-sue character profile more than Serah anyway.

THIS. And even then I wouldn't call her one, but she's probably the closest thing to it in the FF series.