Final Fantasy XIII-2

[Max Payne]

How are you people seeing all this from like 5 screenshots?

Don't forget the teaser.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Do you have some fucking context here that I don't?

I see some bone thin bitch picking up a sword and suddenly being a fighter with no context at all. That's what I see here. Even if you're learning as you go, you're still gonna be a shit fighter. You will not be able to just suddenly be a boss. It's not acceptable, and even less so for someone like SERAH. MS SAVE ME.

First of all, how do you know she hasn't had training in between the two games? Secondly, who's saying she's going to start out as a boss? RPG characters start out goddamn weak.

I'm going to echo one OWD said too. Fuck sake you people go from suspension of disbelief to throwing it out the window.

It's not throwing suspension of disbelief out; it's not assuming that there's no explanation given when there are plenty of obvious explanations that could be used to fill in the plot. You're assuming that it has to be shit when we really know next to nothing about the circumstances surrounding the story. Square Enix may be bad at stories these days but it's ridiculous to assume they're so bad that they'd throw in a complete transformation in a character with no explanation whatsoever. And Force already suggested one potential reason for her transformation that would make an awful goddamn lot of sense.

Do you know something here I don't? Because I'm commenting on what I see here.

Do you know something I don't? You're basically saying it has to be shit when we have next to no knowledge about the plot of this game. It's entirely possible that just as much explanation is given for Serah's transformation as a fighter as was given for Tidus' in FFX.

 

[Max Payne]

First of all, how do you know she hasn't had training in between the two games? Secondly, who's saying she's going to start out as a boss? RPG characters start out goddamn weak.

Except they don't always start out weak in the context of their plots. Cloud was cutting down MPs and fucking machines left and right, do you think it mattered that he was level 1?

It's not throwing suspension of disbelief; it's not assuming that there's no explanation given when there are plenty of obvious explanations that could be used to fill in the plot. You're assuming that it has to be shit when we really know next to nothing about the circumstances surrounding the story. Square Enix may be bad at stories these days but it's ridiculous to assume they're so bad that they'd throw in a complete transformation in a character with no explanation whatsoever. And Force already suggested one potential reason for her transformation that would make an awful goddamn lot of sense.

No shit sherlock. No one said anything was definitive. We are distinctly talking about possibilities given what we've see. I've already remarked on what context would be acceptable and what would not, so I've clearly not committed to the idea that any one situation is certain to happen.

Given what we've see of Serah, and seeing how she's still getting saved in the teaser trailer, is still small and weak looking, we've drawn several logical conclusions based on that. It doesn't make sense. 2 years doesn't make any damn sense at all when the teaser shows us that she still needs to be saved and defended.

EDIT: Oh and SE HAS thrown in complete character transformations into games before without context. So get that shit out of here.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Except they don't always start out weak in the context of their plots. Cloud was cutting down MPs and fucking machines left and right, do you think it mattered that he was level 1?

I didn't say always. But it's usually the case.

No shit sherlock. No one said anything was definitive. We are distinctly talking about possibilities given what we've see. I've already remarked on what context would be acceptable and what would not, so I've clearly not committed to the idea that any one situation is certain to happen.

Given what we've see of Serah, and seeing how she's still getting saved in the teaser trailer, is still small and weak looking, we've drawn several logical conclusions based on that. It doesn't make sense. 2 years doesn't make any damn sense at all when the teaser shows us that she still needs to be saved and defended.

Right, but you still seem to be assuming that the game presents her as some badass to start out with. There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. Just about all we know is found in the damn teaser trailer and there isn't even any sense of chronology presented in it. Some of the scenes we're seeing could be from halfway into the game for all we know.

And characters looking small and weak looking but not being weak is a pretty common trope in fiction, anyway. Lisbeth Salander looks like a waif but you do not want to fuck with her. She will kick your ass if you mess with her.

EDIT:

Oh and SE HAS thrown in complete character transformations into games before without context. So get that shit out of here.

Yes, but assuming that this has to be another one of them without any evidence that it actually is is pretty goddamn closed-minded.

Plus, as long as there's a more competent fighter in the party, the idea that she wouldn't be getting training from them would be pants-on-head retarded. Even if the story doesn't show it, we can assume it happens.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well...technically Cloud was level 7 at that point. No one in FF7 starts at level 1. He was level 1 in the Kalm flashback and he looked damn near useless there. Though I know that was partly to accentuate Sephiroth's power.

As for Serah, I can very well see that she'd have to defend herself in some fashion during two years living on the craziness that is Gran Pulse. Even your team of l'Cie gets jacked up in Pulse when you first get there if you're not very careful.

 

[Max Payne]

I didn't say always. But it's usually the case.

No it isn't. Cloud, and Squall start out in their games doing some unbelievable shit despite their levels. Character leveling is irrelevant in plot, because they clearly have a specific level of skill at different points in the plot regardless of your current level. Fuck sake Auron and Tidus take an ARMY of monsters on their own at the beginning of FFX.

Right, but you still seem to be assuming that the game presents her as some badass to start out with. There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. Just about all we know is found in the damn teaser trailer and there isn't even any sense of chronology presented in it. Some of the scenes we're seeing could be from halfway into the game for all we know.

Hurrrrrrrrrrr. I'm discussing the idea that she would be. Fuck sake I already said, nothing is certain or confirmed. That's done.

And characters looking small and weak looking but not being is a pretty major trope in fiction, anyway. Lisbeth Salander looks like a waif but you do not want to fuck with her. She will kick your ass if you mess with her.

Except it plays a part in who Serah is and her role in the original game. Fuck your tropes. I see nothing so far saying she's changed much at all.

Well...technically Cloud was level 7 at that point. No one in FF7 starts at level 1. He was level 1 in the Kalm flashback and he looked damn near useless there. Though I know that was partly to accentuate Sephiroth's power.

Talking about the Reactor raid at the beginning of the game man. Also the subsequent fight with MPs where Cloud solos.

 

[Max Payne]

Oh, and saying herp derp this shit happened in this RPG and durr doesn't make any of it any more acceptable.

It's the same problem I have with freaking children saving the world in anime despite fighting trained elite soldiers and giant monsters. It's ridiculous.

 

[ForceStealer]

Talking about the Reactor raid at the beginning of the game man. Also the subsequent fight with MPs where Cloud solos.

Yeah, Cloud starts at level 7. (Technically level 6, and he hits level 7 after that first battle). I think Tifa has the lowest starting level in the game at 5. The only time you see anyone at level 1 is Cloud during the Kalm flashback, at which point one hit by anything kills him.

 

[Ⓐaron]

No it isn't. Cloud, and Squall start out in their games doing some unbelievable shit despite their levels. Character leveling is irrelevant in plot, because they clearly have a specific level of skill at different points in the plot regardless of your current level. Fuck sake Auron and Tidus take an ARMY of monsters on their own at the beginning of FFX.

As Force said, Cloud is level 7 in the reactor raid. And the other characters definitely start out much weaker. If I'm remembering correctly Terra is pretty high-level at the start of FFVI as well, and a good in-story explanation is given why she's so much stronger than Biggs and Wedge (who are extremely weak). Most of the party members at the start of games are weak unless they're presented in-universe as being experienced fighters, and even when they're strong, the monsters they take out are invariably extremely weak due to the way the levelling system works.

Hurrrrrrrrrrr. I'm discussing the idea that she would be. Fuck sake I already said, nothing is certain or confirmed. That's done.

You certainly haven't used any qualifiers suggesting it in your posts.

Except it plays a part in who Serah is and her role in the original game. Fuck your tropes. I see nothing so far saying she's changed much at all.

The idea that she spends time in

an untamed world that has run wild with dangerous wildlife for 500 years

wouldn't be enough to change her?

Oh, and saying herp derp this shit happened in this RPG and durr doesn't make any of it any more acceptable.

It's the same problem I have with freaking children saving the world in anime despite fighting trained elite soldiers and giant monsters. It's ridiculous.

Right, but you're acting as if it's completely unprecedented. It isn't.

Lisbeth Salander isn't an RPG character by the way; she's a book character, and a good explanation is given in-story for why she is the way she is: She's had years of training from one of Sweden's best-known professional boxers. My point in bringing her up is to point out that you can't judge characters' ability to fuck you up based on appearances.

 

[Max Payne]

As Force said, Cloud is level 7 in the reactor raid. And the other characters definitely start out much weaker. If I'm remembering correctly Terra is pretty high-level at the start of FFVI as well, and a good in-story explanation is given why she's so much stronger than Biggs and Wedge (who are extremely weak). Most of the party members at the start of games are weak unless they're presented in-universe as being experienced fighters, and even when they're strong, the monsters they take out are invariably extremely weak due to the way the levelling system works.

......Since when does Cloud start off at level 7 at the beginning of the game?

Leveling has fuck all to do with who the characters are at whatever point in the story.

You certainly haven't used any qualifiers suggesting it in your posts.

....Yes I have. I did right before you made the post before that one. I shouldn't need to point that shit out. It was obvious from the start that I was disputing the idea, not the actual plot, which DOESN'T EXIST YET.

The idea that she spends time in wouldn't be enough to change her?

No, it isn't. Not everyone has the innate ability to be a fighter, and nothing in XIII implied that she's a fighter.

Right, but you're acting as if it's completely unprecedented. It isn't.

No I'm not. Stop making shit up. I've talking about this shit with Mako, Force, and Kimble before. It's never okay with me.

Lisbeth Salander isn't an RPG character by the way; she's a book character, and a good explanation is given in-story for why she is the way she is: She's had years of training from one of Sweden's best-known professional boxers.

Yeah, I got that.

 

[Ⓐaron]

......Since when does Cloud start off at level 7 at the beginning of the game?

Since 1997.

Leveling has fuck all to do with who the characters are at whatever point in the story.

Um, no. Characters start off fighting Shinra grunts because they're level 7. They certainly aren't fighting Sephiroth at level 7. Even if story doesn't progress as a direct result of levelling it certainly takes it into account. A Midgardsormr being impaled at the start of the game is presented as a gigantic deal because they're impossible to kill at that point in the game, but by the third disc you can kill them like flies.

....Yes I have. I did right before you made the post before that one. I shouldn't need to point that shit out. It was obvious from the start that I was disputing the idea, not the actual plot, which DOESN'T EXIST YET.

I was talking about the posts I started out responding to. I didn't see any qualifiers in them.

No, it isn't. Not everyone has the innate ability to be a fighter, and nothing in XIII implied that she's a fighter.

And, as stated, two years have passed since XIII and we don't really have much of an idea as to what she's been up to since then. If she was in a hell hole with tons of horrible monsters then the idea that she'd want to fight is quite logical. Furthermore, she's apparently in the presence of more experienced fighters, and the idea that they can train her is pretty logical.

No I'm not. Stop making shit up. I've talking about this shit with Mako, Force, and Kimble before. It's never okay with me.

Just saying the impression I got man.

Anyway I have work so we'll continue this later.

 

[Max Payne]

Since 1997.

Don't remember that at all, it's been a while. My point stands regardless.

Um, no. Characters start off fighting Shinra grunts because they're level 7.

What the fuck. Cloud and Barret are ripping through Shrinra MPs and Mechs because Cloud is a trained soldier with fighting experience and genetic enhancements, and Barret had plenty of experience fighting and with espionage.

Not because of their goddamn levels.

They certainly aren't fighting Sephiroth at level 7. Even if story doesn't progress as a direct result of levelling it certainly takes it into account. A Midgardsormr being impaled at the start of the game is presented as a gigantic deal because they're impossible to kill at that point in the game, but by the third disc you can kill them like flies.

No they aren't. They're presented as HARD to kill. You can also beat him at that point in the game. Fuck sake you can beat a lot of the bosses at pretty low levels. People have done this as challenges. There is no set level for the plot, and it's ultimately IRRELEVANT to the story.

I was talking about the posts I started out responding to. I didn't see any qualifiers in them.

I shouldn't need to qualify the obvious, when it was clear from the start none of us are talking about anything as if it was certain.

And, as stated, two years have passed since XIII and we don't really have much of an idea as to what she's been up to since then. If she was in a hell hole with tons of horrible monsters then the idea that she'd want to fight is quite logical.

The only logical thing that'd be in that scenario is Serah winding up dead. Two years can mean fuck all, fuck sake we see her being saved in the trailer, in her usual fashion. Not everyone can be a fighter, despite training.

Furthermore, she's apparently in the presence of more experienced fighters, and the idea that they can train her is pretty logical.

Yeah, she COULD be trained. But it doesn't matter. Even if she was trained, Serah isn't presented at all as the kind of person who has it in her to be a good fighter, even trained. She's too meek and helpless. Hell even going by just her personality disregarding what happened in the plot.

Just saying the impression I got man.

Right.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Are we seriously comparing Serah's nonexistent fighting abilities to low-leveled Cloud and Squall?

That is ridiculous. Leveling has little to do with plot. Despite their low levels, Cloud and Squall have military training. Tifa is a trained martial artist and the best of Zangan's students. Barret's a fucking terrorist.

It's not like Cloud and Squall simply pick up weapons and become proficient.

.../formating fail

EDIT: and I will add that it didn't take them 2 years, more like most of their lives.

 

[ForceStealer]

My point was that the FF7 cast and others that start at levels higher than one do so BECAUSE they had previous training. That's how the game represents it. So starting Serah at level 1 COULD suggest that she's just a normal person that has a long way to go. But I could see them starting her with a bit of proficiency or something because she's now lived for two years on the craziness that is Gran Pulse.

And Dacon, just to jog your memory so you know I'm not making stuff up:

At 6:50.

 

[Max Payne]

My point was that the FF7 cast and others that start at levels higher than one do so BECAUSE they had previous training. That's how the game represents it. So starting Serah at level 1 COULD suggest that she's just a normal person that has a long way to go. But I could see them starting her with a bit of proficiency or something because she's now lived for two years on the craziness that is Gran Pulse.

And Dacon, just to jog your memory so you know I'm not making stuff up:

At 6:50.

My point stands man. Where are levels referenced in the plot? Nowhere. Same with X, VIII, and all of the others.

Auron and Tidus take down an army of SinSpawn, why? Because Auron is a trained guardian with years of experience slaying monsters.

Levels are irrelevant.

 

[Tifabelle]

The only logical thing that'd be in that scenario is Serah winding up dead. Two years can mean fuck all, fuck sake we see her being saved in the trailer, in her usual fashion. Not everyone can be a fighter, despite training.

And sometimes trained fighters need to be saved. Sometimes people just get into trouble.

I think the bottom line is that there's no reason to be jumping to conclusions that this game is going to be shit because we literally don't know anything.

You see a few screenshots, decide the game is shit because some dude hands Serah a sword. It makes no sense. There is no context at all to the scene in question. My point is how have people jumped to conclusions that this game will be shit just because of that. I'm not sitting here saying it's going to be great, but ffs can we not jump all over every little thing?

And I'm not about to compare Cloud and Serah, but Cloud was in the military for 2 years before going comatose for 5. To be fair though he also has mako injections, etc

 

[Max Payne]

And sometimes trained fighters need to be saved. Sometimes people just get into trouble.

And some people are weaklings who always get saved. You have no point.

I think the bottom line is that there's no reason to be jumping to conclusions that this game is going to be shit because we literally don't know anything.

No one did. Pay attention.

You see a few screenshots, decide the game is shit because some dude hands Serah a sword. It makes no sense.

No one did this, stop saying stupid things.

There is no context at all to the scene in question. My point is how have people jumped to conclusions that this game will be shit just because of that. I'm not sitting here saying it's going to be great, but ffs can we not jump all over every little thing?

No one made any conclusions at all. You're arguing a pointless stance when people are only discussing assumption based off what they've already seen. The lengths people go to defend things.

And I'm not about to compare Cloud and Serah, but Cloud was in the military for 2 years before going comatose for 5. To be fair though he also has mako injections, etc

Exactly. His level is irrelevant.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Or it could be SE just giving you a familiar face but completely changing the characters as if they are new. There was nothing in the original game that ever suggested Serah's story would be interesting to continue AS SHE WAS.

I don't think anyone here's disputing that people change over time. But you give me physically the same character, maybe 2 years in the future, who wanted to be a teacher and didn't have a fighting bone in her body and whose entire purpose in the game was to be saved by the others...and give her a sword and call it a day?

No, even if the world's overflowing with ridiculous monsters I don't buy it. If you're going to take an existing character and make a sequel, you need to retain some common threads, or just make a fucking sequel following a new character that wouldn't ask the audience to fucking shut off all their mental processes.

"It's two years later" is no excuse. We don't know the story, sure, but the more you divorce an existing character from what the audience already knows, the more you have to justify that change and work to make it believeable. So the general sense of unease and WTFing is perfectly understandable to me. Especially since SE doesn't exactly have a stellar record in that department.

It seems to me a lot of you guys are ready to excuse and justify any shortcomings, even possible ones. No, call a fucking spade a spade or all you'll keep getting is FFXIII quality shit.

EDIT:

I think the bottom line is that there's no reason to be jumping to conclusions that this game is going to be shit because we literally don't know anything.

No bb. We do. We know Serah is no longer Serah and that SE will have to do some neat acrobatics while selling that to me. Possibly with a side of fries and bbq cocobo wings.

 

[ForceStealer]

You're the one that brought up level in the first place, Dac.

Here's what I don't get.

The only logical thing that'd be in that scenario is Serah winding up dead. Two years can mean fuck all, fuck sake we see her being saved in the trailer, in her usual fashion.

"It's two years later" is no excuse. We don't know the story, sure, but the more you divorce an existing character from what the audience already knows, the more you have to justify that change and work to make it believeable.

So...which is the problem? Is Serah too unlike her XIII self or not?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

It is no secret I think FFXIII is shit.
That does not mean everything I say about it stems from my dislike of it.

But the whole point of the release of screenshots and teasers is to tease and reveal information. Enough so that we may at least have some idea of what may be coming. Is there something against me judging that info? The direction that info suggest right now doesn't exactly say anything good about it. I tried to explain why and a bunch of people are are all like "LOL WE DUNNO STUFFZ, SHUT UP".
I don't need a scene-by-scene breakdown to gather the general vibe of the game. It's why we have trailers to begin with. If they've given you NOTHING they have not done their job.

This whole thing started because someone said it's not looking good that right off the bat these few screenshots have completely changed an existing character. Like every fucking thing we knew about her and that wasn't much to begin with. If you don't think that raises any flags, more power to you and your suspension fo disbelief and your expectations of storytelling. But you're making it seem like it's unreasonable to expect WTFery with this level of change, or that it's unreasonable to think that the change suggests anything less than stellar about SE.

Can we remember for five seconds who we're talking about?

 

[ForceStealer]

That MIGHT be a trailer's job, but not a teaser. A teaser is just to get people talking (which, apparently, it has).

And I dunno if I'm gonna like the game at all. I'm not gonna make any judgement at all until I see some more stuff. I'm still really surprised they made a sequel to XIII. The game was a success, but it was pretty polarizing even for an FF release. I was never going to dispute objection to Serah herself just from people disliking her. I just found the outrage over a screenshot of her holding a sword is silly. We simply don't know enough about her. Yes she's wants to be a teacher, she never made it sound like she was Relena Peacecraft or anything.
And the point of the game was to rescue her, yes, but its not like she needed to be REPEATEDLY rescued. You were just trying to uncrystallize her, which happens to EVERYONE that completes their focus. All the fighting skill in the world wouldn't have prevented that.

 

[Max Payne]

You're the one that brought up level in the first place, Dac.

Here's what I don't get.



So...which is the problem? Is Serah too unlike her XIII self or not?

My problem is, out of all the characters in XIII, Serah is the one who just doesn't have it in her to be a fighter. I haven't seen anything to make it believable yet, and even if I did I don't think I'd buy it.

Serah is a weak, little sissy who is made of jailbait. Why you'd place a higher emphasis on her and shoehorn her into a role of a warrior is beyond me, but eh.

For the record I don't think FFXIII is shit anymore. Just really mediocre. Also, I wasn't the one who initially brought up leveling dood.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

My problem is, out of all the characters in XIII, Serah is the one who just doesn't have it in her to be a fighter. I haven't seen anything to make it believable yet, and even if I did I don't think I'd buy it.

QUOTED FOR TRUTHZ.

 

[Max Payne]

I just found the outrage over a screenshot of her holding a sword is silly.

You assuming that there's outrage is silly.

Also, stop forgetting the teaser.

 

[Tifabelle]

First off, if people are going to be rude then I'm just gonna step away. I'm not trying to be rude, and if it comes off that way, then I apologize.

But the whole point of the release of screenshots and teasers is to tease and reveal information.

It's to get you to buy the game. Obviously isn't working on you I get what you're saying, and part of the purpose is to reveal information. But it's hard to draw conclusions based on 1 minute of pictures.

I'm not convinced either way that it's stupid or not. Because I don't have enough information.

Is there something against me judging that info? The direction that info suggest right now doesn't exactly say anything good about it. I tried to explain why and a bunch of people are are all like "LOL WE DUNNO STUFFZ, SHUT UP".

No. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you should shut up. What I'm asking is why are we assuming that Serah's entire character is being torn up just because someone hands her a sword?

This whole thing started because someone said it's not looking good that right off the bat these few screenshots have completely changed an existing character. Like every fucking thing we knew about her and that wasn't much to begin with.

Well this is why I'm confused. We knew very little about her to begin with, right? So my question is still the same: How has Serah changed? Please explain it to me, cause I really think I'm missing something.

She hasn't changed because she still needs saving, but they've changed her so much that now she can hold a sword. Which are we going with?

Can we remember for five seconds who we're talking about?

So this is an SE thing? Assuming future fuck-ups based on past fuck-ups. Not saying that's not a fair thing to do, but... idk.