Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)

[Farron]

Which is my point. No matter how a character changes depending on the author of a story, so long as the original character retains itself for the most part, you can't really complain. Minor changes and contrivances to side stories don't really "ruin" a character if you ask me. They're just a slightly altered interpretation designed to squeeze said character into said story better.

Of course Cloud will always be his BEST in Final Fantasy VII. That's his origin. That won't ever change. And even if they do a remake there will always be people who don't like said remake for that simple reason, because they thought he was always best in his original form.

Then I don't understand ???

Yeah Cloud wasn't really his original self hence why the complaint towards the Flanderization towards Cloud and other Final Fantasy characters.

From TV Tropes

In Final Fantasy VII Cloud Strife actually did very little brooding, preferring to focus on fighting Sephiroth and saving the planet from Shinra. The guy even cracked a few jokes at his friends and could take a jab back in return, and is very caring of his friends and claims he "trusts everyone". His archrival Sephiroth was a Dark Messiah who wanted to become a god to reshape the planet into his own personal utopia, and he screwed with Cloud's head to do it in revenge for Cloud defeating him years prior. Ever since the original game Cloud has been warped into a loner who brushes off his friends' attempts to help him while he broods and angsts over Sephiroth, and Sephiroth's only character traits now are his ability to manipulate Cloud's emotions and taunt Cloud with the fact he's so good at it. The Foe Yay between them has also gotten increasingly heavy-handed, to the point Sephiroth almost seems more like a jealous stalker or a scorned ex than Cloud's hated enemy.

Not to mention a lot of fans Flanderize the characters, thanks to Poe's Law. Playing the original Final Fantasy VII, you might actually be surprised to find that Cloud is NOT eternally whining and brooding, or that the characters actually DON'T cry as much as the Hatedom say they do.

And there's also Terra Branford from Final Fantasy VI. In the original game, she was a bit unsure of herself and afraid that she'd never feel love, but she still wasn't afraid to fight for the Returners' cause and stand up to Kefka. Dissidia turns her into the ultimate deer in the headlights, and she's completely afraid to fight at all. She's strictly this timid little girl with little of her characterization from VI, to a point where she doesn't even use her sword outside of chase scenes so they can have her fight with magic from the distance. Worse, it takes the advice and bodyguarding of two younger males for her to start regaining some element of her original character.

Overall, people have been saying XV (previously Versus XIII) is going to be so much better because of Nomura. A part of me would like it to flop, just to prove the problem is not one man alone. The stories have been complex, but there has to be time to explain characters and points in the story. They don't know this, or they don't want to do this.

If Final Fantasy XV fails, it's going to create more fan anger and drama. We are already " Final Fantasy is dead " articles; not to mention how many fans are feeling like Final Fantasy XV is the last straw for them. Myself included.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^The thing with Cloud's portrayal in FFVII is that for a large part of the game, he isn't the real Cloud; he's been in a mako-induced coma for years with a heavy dose of Jenova-copied memories from Zack and Tifa slapped on top of that. I mean, we only get to really meet the real Cloud after the Lifestream sequence and the real Cloud has way less scenes devoted to developing his character then fake Cloud did. In fact, real Cloud only remembers five memories that are really his... SE had tones of wiggle-room when it came to decided what Cloud's character post-FFVII would look like.

I also think that people who think Cloud was brooding for most of ACC are ignoring the entire last half of the movie. The impression I got was that Cloud had a terminal illness and he was still going going out and trying to save everyone...

 

[ForceStealer]

100% agreed. Especially when considered with his normalcy in Case of Tifa (until he contracts Geostigma) and Dirge of Cerberus. (Even "cracking jokes" as before)

 

[Kuja9001]

I thanked this comment because I am sick of hearing Toriyama's name over and over and over again, seconded by how people think how horrific or how great he is (due to Lightning, due to Final Fantasy XIII.)

Though the Toriyamad (for trolled) joke is hilarious to me.

I'm also sick of hearing how horrible XIII is, though I personally hate XIII-2; and, I don't believe XIII was a bad game. XIII-2 needed a lot more fleshing out to be good, in my opinion. Granted, everyone has opinions, and that's fine.

Overall, people have been saying XV (previously Versus XIII) is going to be so much better because of Nomura. A part of me would like it to flop, just to prove the problem is not one man alone. The stories have been complex, but there has to be time to explain characters and points in the story. They don't know this, or they don't want to do this.

Damn you pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

My other issue is people hyping Versus/XV up to be FF's savior.

And there's also Terra Branford from Final Fantasy VI. In the original game, she was a bit unsure of herself and afraid that she'd never feel love, but she still wasn't afraid to fight for the Returners' cause and stand up to Kefka. Dissidia turns her into the ultimate deer in the headlights, and she's completely afraid to fight at all. She's strictly this timid little girl with little of her characterization from VI, to a point where she doesn't even use her sword outside of chase scenes so they can have her fight with magic from the distance. Worse, it takes the advice and bodyguarding of two younger males for her to start regaining some element of her original character.

That's why I call it Disshitdia.

 

[ForceStealer]

Which had nothing to do with Nomura, I might add.
I wasn't really expecting much in the way of characterization in a fighting game anyway.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Except not.

(Edit- Ninjad!)

Terra is still Terra. Even Cloud mentions her power.

Seems to me she was pulled from a time in the game were she was still unsure and where Locke and Edgar where supportive of her. In Dissidia she still does things like face up to Kefka and made her way to Cosmos on her own.

I have a friend who is a major Terra fan, he posts about her wherever he goes, and he brought up those points. Dissidia didn't ruin Terra for him or for me, especially since she's an S rank tier in the first game

As for Cloud I agree with Blade and Force. It's not like they brought AC/Dissidia Cloud out of nowhere either. As a youngster he was supposed to be this sort of anti social/loner/broody from a far dude. Can't remember for sure if the Ultimanias say about how this is/is more like the real Cloud but I think so. Probably

Also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqvwcchDxZo&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1Oh_dE1B_HCvf_Slge0F8w

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think the 'real' Cloud is brooding and angsty. He's confident but socially awkward. He's angsty in Advent Children because he has a terminal disease - symptoms of which specifically include despair and hopelessness.

And yes, as for Terra, it could depend at what point of FF6 she was pulled into Dissidia's realm. Most of the other characters seemed to be pulled from after their respective games though.

 

[Blade]

Thing is, in Cloud's case, I always considered him "in-recovery" from the mess with Sephiroth. He's still dealing with Jenova even during Advent Children. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason his personality is a bit of a blank slate (he's still trying to learn how to be himself again). The whole emo-guilt thing was over Aerith and his Geostigma, not Sephiroth (the fact you use TV Tropes to summarize your impression of a game is kinda lame if you ask me).

I'd say he only started being his genuine kind self with the kids because they seemed to be able to read him better and had a more innocent view of him since they didn't know him as much as the rest of Avalanche and Tifa.

AND WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS...this is a FFXV thread, DANGITALL!!

My point remains valid:

No matter what you think, no matter how much you complain about a character changing from one spinoff to the next, from one sequel to the next...it solves nothing as the original impression of the character will be the longest-lasting one and likely the most important until there is closure or a more endearing trait about the character is revealed.

 

[Farron]

^^The thing with Cloud's portrayal in FFVII is that for a large part of the game, he isn't the real Cloud; he's been in a mako-induced coma for years with a heavy dose of Jenova-copied memories from Zack and Tifa slapped on top of that. I mean, we only get to really meet the real Cloud after the Lifestream sequence and the real Cloud has way less scenes devoted to developing his character then fake Cloud did. In fact, real Cloud only remembers five memories that are really his... SE had tones of wiggle-room when it came to decided what Cloud's character post-FFVII would look like.

Yeah true. But it still seems off character for him to all of a sudden turn really depressed and closed despite what troubles came his way. In Crisis Core he was really cheerful and a little nervous, but not in anyway a Debbie Downer. Also from after the Lifestream to the ending, he seems to be himself. A brave and confident leader who is a little unsure of himself.

I also think that people who think Cloud was brooding for most of ACC are ignoring the entire last half of the movie. The impression I got was that Cloud had a terminal illness and he was still going going out and trying to save everyone...

True and yes he did have a terminal illness but of the all of a sudden Aerith is dead now I feel really bad is out of character too. He already said in Final Fantasy VII that everybody has to got to move on, because Aerith would of wanted it that way. She died with a frozen smile and we have to move that smile so to speak. Cloud did get better at the ending, yes, but before that his character seems so off. Hence the complaint.

I don't think the 'real' Cloud is brooding and angsty. He's confident but socially awkward. He's angsty in Advent Children because he has a terminal disease - symptoms of which specifically include despair and hopelessness.

Then what about Dissidia ? He's "emo" as shit basically and Steve Burton making him sound all gloomy doesn't help matters. I think what's to blame here isn't really Advent Children, but more Dissidia.

That's why I call it Disshitdia.

Haha awesome ! Going to use this for now on ! Nice one Kuja9001 !

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah true. But it still seems off character for him to all of a sudden turn really depressed and closed despite what troubles came his way. In Crisis Core he was really cheerful and a little nervous, but not in anyway a Debbie Downer. Also from after the Lifestream to the ending, he seems to be himself. A brave and confident leader who is a little unsure of himself.

True and yes he did have a terminal illness but of the all of a sudden Aerith is dead now I feel really bad is out of character too. He already said in Final Fantasy VII that everybody has to got to move on, because Aerith would of wanted it that way. She died with a frozen smile and we have to move that smile so to speak. Cloud did get better at the ending, yes, but before that his character seems so off. Hence the complaint.

It's the Geostigma, it causes hopelessness.

Then what about Dissidia ? He's "emo" as shit basically and Steve Burton making him sound all gloomy doesn't help matters. I think what's to blame here isn't really Advent Children, but more Dissidia.

In 012, yes. Presumably because he's on the wrong side. His heart's not in being with the villains. But not in the first Dissidia, he was just the only hero who was wondering if it was worth fighting just because some lady told them to. It's a reference to his peptalk in FF7 when he requires that the team has a reason to fight. He's not willing to just start fighting because someone tells him to go fight. That gave him pause, but where is he emo in Dissidia? He discusses his concern with his team that he's the leader of. Squall is the one who forsakes help and runs off on his own - true to his character.

Kingdom Hearts is probably what most colors people's opinion of him as such more than anything. But as an AU, it doesn't really count.

 

[Blade]

Next person to bash Dissidia is gettin' Omnislashed with Noctis' sword collection.

That game was fun, period.

 

[Danseru-kun]

@ "the Compilation ruins FFVII"

It doesn't for me. The original is always the same.

I've seen the Compilation first before I've played FFVII. I loved AC, CC, LO and even Dissidia but I still found the original FFVII to be the awesomest thing ever. My experience in playing it is not inferior to people who played it in the 90's or those who hate the Compilation. Yes, I might not feel as sad when Aerith died, but having knowledge of future and past events (CC and AC) give me a different experience.

 

[Arianna]

I've seen the Compilation first before I've played FFVII. I loved AC, CC, LO and even Dissidia but I still found the original FFVII to be the awesomest thing ever. My experience in playing it is not inferior to people who played it in the 90's or those who hate the Compilation. Yes, I might not feel as sad when Aerith died, but having knowledge of future and past events (CC and AC) give me a different experience.

I cried even though I knew Aerith was going to die.

I cried when Cait Sith # 1 died!!!

Seriously, both times really touched me.

I don't care if Cait Sith is only a robot!

 

[Farron]

It's the Geostigma, it causes hopelessness.

In 012, yes. Presumably because he's on the wrong side. His heart's not in being with the villains. But not in the first Dissidia, he was just the only hero who was wondering if it was worth fighting just because some lady told them to. It's a reference to his peptalk in FF7 when he requires that the team has a reason to fight. He's not willing to just start fighting because someone tells him to go fight. That gave him pause, but where is he emo in Dissidia? He discusses his concern with his team that he's the leader of. Squall is the one who forsakes help and runs off on his own - true to his character.

Kingdom Hearts is probably what most colors people's opinion of him as such more than anything. But as an AU, it doesn't really count.

Thanks for clearing this up.

We need some more FF XV news so this thread can go back on topic

 

[Roger]

100% agreed. Especially when considered with his normalcy in Case of Tifa (until he contracts Geostigma) and Dirge of Cerberus. (Even "cracking jokes" as before)

He had exactly one cocky line, people blow DoC Cloud's characterisation way out of proportion.

In 012, yes. Presumably because he's on the wrong side. His heart's not in being with the villains. But not in the first Dissidia, he was just the only hero who was wondering if it was worth fighting just because some lady told them to. It's a reference to his peptalk in FF7 when he requires that the team has a reason to fight. He's not willing to just start fighting because someone tells him to go fight. That gave him pause, but where is he emo in Dissidia? He discusses his concern with his team that he's the leader of. Squall is the one who forsakes help and runs off on his own - true to his character.

That is simply not true.

Cloud: "I don't deserve your thanks. I wasn't sure if I could save you. To be honest, I didn't know what to do."
Cloud: "Even with these doubts, there are still some things I can handle."
Cloud: "Just my way of thanking you-- for letting me realize that even I can help someone."
Cloud: "(Sense? No, that's not it. I'm just--)"
Cloud: "(...I'm not calm at all. I think...I'm more scared...)"
Cloud: "(If only I had the strength...to keep from being swept into battle...)"

Can't blame people for thinking he was pretty angsty in Dissidia. Then there are his victory quotes, most battles end with "can't smile about this one" or "I won't sleep well tonight." He's probably the unhappiest winner in Dissidia. I don't like how he has no desire to fight Sephiroth either.

 

[ForceStealer]

He doesn't have that many lines in Dirge. But he's all business the whole time, no wondering or lamenting. Just "Time to go, Fenrir" and talking strategy with Vincent and fighting Deepground. How is this blown out pf proportion. I've only ever said it gave me hope for any sequel.

I always thought "Can't smile about this one," because it was easy? Not an accomplishment to be proud of? And I've recently learned that "I won't sleep well tonight" is a horribly mangled in translation reference to when he tells Barret thatif Barret dies on him, he's gonna have nightmares.
Dissidia Cloud seems to be post-AC? And he just seems sick of having to fight Sephiroth over and over again.
I'll concede on some of those quoted lines I guess, they seem to be AC references.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Overall, people have been saying XV (previously Versus XIII) is going to be so much better because of Nomura

Umm.....

From what I remember, people were mostly excited because it looks like the lovechild of 7 and 8. After the disaster of 13 and 14 people just welcome the idea of hope again. Das all.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Dissidia Cloud seems to be post-AC?

Post-FFVII, pre-AC is where his demeanor and the Dissidia Ultimania place him.

 

[Blade]

The whole "What a Sour Note" or "Can't smile about this one" things is when he fights an enemy that is seriously under-leveled.

I'd be depressed too if I was fighting someone that weak.

Best line in Duodecim from Cloud: "Not YOU again!" when you fight Cloud mirrors!

Here's what he says when he fights tough enemies:

"Guess I'm in trouble here..."
"You don't seem like an ordinary foe."

Still love Exdeath's line to him: "Doubts...and Memories...ARE FRIVOLOUS!!"

 

[Old Nan]

Umm.....

From what I remember, people were mostly excited because it looks like the lovechild of 7 and 8. After the disaster of 13 and 14 people just welcome the idea of hope again. Das all.

Agreed. Also - lack of Toriyama.

I haven't properly looked forward to an FF game in a very long time, but this one has definitely got me interested. Battle system looks interesting and the love what I've seen so far of the character designs and world.

 

[Tetsujin]

Guess what: No new info at TGS

There'll be an interview with Nomura. Expect him saying he can't reveal anything yet but asking you to "please be excited" anyway.

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[Hisako]

"please be excited"

They all say that.

 

[Blade]

I'll be excited when there's a demo of the game in a Kiosk at Gamestop or as a downloadable on PSN Store, thanks ever-so-much, Nomura.

Waiting with baited breath killed off an entire generation of FF fans a few years ago.

Thankfully I was playing Guilty Gear at the time.

 

[Farron]

Waiting with baited breath killed off an entire generation of FF fans a few years ago.

Thankfully I was playing Guilty Gear at the time.

The sad thing is is that it actually does look like a promising game but all this waiting and telling us to sit down and wait is what making us fans annoyed and jump ship to something else instead of Final Fantasy

I'm willing to wait for this because of how good and promising it looks but it's quite clear that alot are fed up of the bullshit

that and Fire Emblem Awakening seems to be filling up time too