Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)

Gary Caelum

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Yep, like I guessed earlier, I'd thought Somnus would be a villain. It made sense as a way of turning the moral justification for the story upside down. It fit with how callous the Lucian kings appear throughout the story. They never particularly feel like good guys, even though they're on 'your side'.

The one thing I'd predicted that didn't pan out is I thought the oracle would betray him too, so that Ardyn killing Luna would've been in part a form of revenge against her family too. That would've made sense, but nevermind.

That trailer at the end looked awesome though. It looks like the story is gonna include the part where Ardyn revives Ifrit. I'd hoped it would. It also looked like they were in Niflheim for that part.
 

Makoeyes987

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This makes the original ending of FFXV feel even more perverse and wrong.

Noctis gave his life for this?

He had to be slashed to death by his ancestors to defend such a tainted legacy he himself wasn't even aware of?

These unrepentant, cold-blooded assholes were the ones he had to pay a "blood price" to?

To be fair, maybe not all the past Lucian kings were as big of dicks as Somnus but still.

FFXV has the most twisted ending and tragically fated hero. And the world and divinity of Eos is as wrongheaded and twisted as the FNC family of stories it was divorced from. The writers just hid said darkness very effectively. I have to give proper kudos to them, this is incredible.
 

Gary Caelum

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The one thing that wasn't completely clear is whether he was always rejected by the crystal or whether it was just because he showed his demonic side at the end.
The oracle's reaction made it look like Ardyn was the true king to start with. But that does hinge on the gods not knowing he was infested with the starscourge. Which would make them pretty clueless gods. Surely they could sense something like that.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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Being pretty clueless -- or knowingly unconcerned -- is kind of their thing, though. There was a way to defeat the scourge that didn't require Noctis's death, but Bahamut never pushed for that alternative instead.
 

Gary Caelum

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The Ifrit scene seems weird. So I'm guessing Ardyn had to fight him in order to get him as a summon, like Noctis did in the main game. The fight looks like it's somewhere in Niflheim, and yet it looks like the kingsglaive are fighting with him. Makes no sense.

Oh and if you look at the fighting within Insomnia, Ardyn has Ifrit as a party member rather than a summon. He's being used like Aranea was for Prompto or Ravus for Ignis.
 
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Blade

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I think you guys are missing a few aspects to this plot that aren't entirely covered.

Kingsglaive for one thing... Regis was literally AWARE of this stuff going down long before it happened, so of course he tried to prepare his Son for any eventuality.

I'm sure Regis knew the truth about Ardyn, he just didn't have the power to do anything about it.

(Also, ironic how Ardyn was imprisoned in Angelgard Island the same place where Noct ends up...)

Also there's a brief scene where the Oracle speaks to Bahamut and we don't really know what he said but afterwards she has a really sad look on her face, so I'm guessing what Bahamut said must not have been good. That's probably why she stepped in to try and save Ardyn.

And then there's what happens to the Kingsglaive in Comrades and how they literally have to redeem themselves for siding with the likes of Ardyn and the Empire.

Also there's what Ardyn says to Ignis in Episode Ignis, essentially confirming that rather than actually hating Noctis, Ardyn is actually "using him" to set himself free while simultaneously getting his revenge on his family. (Which also makes me think the time spent with Ardyn on the trip to the Disc at Cauthess was legit family bonding for Ardyn/Noct in a twisted way...)
 

Gary Caelum

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Oooo I wonder if General Glauca will be in it. We know he was around at a similar time from the intro to Kingsglaive.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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I don't think this is around the same time, though? Ardyn joined Niflheim 34 years before the main events of the game while the only time we know for sure for the original Glauca to have been around was 12 years before.

He could have been, though, of course. Here's hoping.
 

X-SOLDIER

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X
I actually really liked that they have that juxtaposition between Somnus & Ardyn.

Having Somnus as someone who is properly at war against the Starscourge en masse, vs. Ardyn as someone who is individually concerned for his people is really interesting. I really liked the fact that when they start out they don't really have anything against each other, but over time when you're looking at someone to become your leader, you have to start thinking about things on a larger scale:

Ardyn is more concerned about alleviating the suffering his peoples' individual experiences – so much so that he's sacrificing himself to do it. He's gaining the trust and the belief of his people, but at the same time, he's hiding a growing corruption that it's clear he's not always able to control or repress. While his intentions are pure, without a clear path to achieving his ambitions he's just stalling the inevitable – or even possibly becoming an even greater danger. If he was made king, there's no telling what may have transpired or when the darkness would have overtaken him.

Somnus is heavily preoccupied with the idea of the Starscourge as a plague and is more looking at it as an "ends justify the means" perspective of dealing with a plague-like infection. He's on the battlefield constantly, and is burning masses of people to keep it from spreading. Realistically, the only reason that Ardyn can do what he's doing one a smaller case-by-case basis is because his brother is obliterating armies of Daemons. As the younger brother, he's always motivated by the ambition to overcome his older brother. It's clear that he's of the opinion that his ambition is the most important to overcoming their issues.


When it comes to the betrayal, it's clear that Somnus feels that there's a necessity in him becoming king over his elder brother. However, bringing in Ardyn under false pretenses is also INCREDIBLY important to the point of actually being functionally necessary, (even if he didn't know it at the time). If Somnus went out (as king or not) and directly confronted his brother in any scenario, the people would turn against him – because they rightly love Ardyn vastly more than Somnus for what he's done to help them. Given what Ardyn was doing, he was essentially guaranteeing that he would eventually come into direct conflict with his brother, because their ideologies are not only opposed, but they're building to come into direct conflict with one another.

Somnus isn't noble in how he attempts to openly shame Ardyn into giving up the throne at all. That's his clear plan to attempt to seize control uncontested, which may have to do with some of the "younger brother" legacy, since he wants Ardyn to give up his name and make the claim to the throne clearly uncontested. When it's clear that Ardyn really IS as corrupt as whatever rumors arrived to prompt that action, it becomes clear that while Somnus is far from noble, that this conflict was becoming inevitable to some degree.


I think that the anime is clearly meant to set up a sense where everyone embraces the perspective Ardyn has so that they're making the players WANT to take up Ardyn's cause for the DLC. It'll be interesting to see what additional things we learn from playing through the DLC about the little bits where Ardyn's self vs. his corruption helps to guide his actions. I think it'll start to make people consider the perspective to consider what would have happened if Ardyn took the throne and when up against his brother, and THEN fell to corruption. It seems as though everything would've been infinitely worse, so that we get to see Ardyn's story as a, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." which makes me properly interested, since the whole thing was always a massive tragedy of inevitable sacrifices to end it all and giving Ardyn that righteously slighted ambition makes the conflict against Noctis feel like it's more extreme than ever in looking at the legacies of their ideological differences, but that also ends with Noctis purifying the corruption from Ardyn and giving him some degree of the kindness that he constantly showed to others.

Genuinely excited as hell for all of this.



X :neo:
 

Makoeyes987

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I think you're giving Somnus a bit too much credit here. :mon:

Even if you were to give that much credit to Somnus in regards to his perspective of burning people alive who are sick with Starscourge and all that, why the hell did he have the typical anime "manic monster" expression when he saw Ardyn decide to not just give up his claim to the throne?

He enjoyed the prospect of killing Ardyn and making him suffer.

And then there's the callous response, Somnus expressed at killing Ardyn's love.

Hell, I'm not even gonna touch the vision of Somnus Ardyn saw that seemingly teased/mocked him in the gameplay trailer of the game. Although that could just be some sort of illusion or whatever.

But everything else? Yeeeeeah.

Like, there's something wrong with Somnus. Something wrong with his head. I don't think it's just a manner of differing perspectives.

I think Somnus is a true-blue asshole. :mon:

But who knows, I guess we'll see. But I just don't know how much credit one can give Somnus at this point. Unless this entire recap of the past is the delusional perspective of a bitter, jaded Ardyn that is somehow unreliable. But it so far seems pretty reliable.
 

Blade

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This is all the more significant once the events of Comrades happen, because the people are facing the Starscourge directly on their own without the help of any king.

Even if Ardyn was doing something "for the people", there was no guarantee things would stay that way even if he was accepted by them.

Also recall that Lunafreya was "healing people" just the same as he was, so that very well could have been her fate in turn had he not murdered her ahead of time.

The only one who could actually put a stop to all of this was the true King chosen by the Crystal... only he has the power to put an end to the farce, essentially.

In that sense, this smacks of FFX's "Calm" in concept, in that only someone who can end the Fayth's Dream and Yu Yevon's could ever truly bring about peace...

I'm sure Bahamut knew all this, that's why he spoke with Regis about it beforehand... that's why Regis set this all up for his son and why Lunafreya went to such great lengths to support Noctis... because if she hadn't, it would have most likely just been half-measures to solving the problem.
 

Makoeyes987

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Lunafreya purged the Starcourge from people via her divine Oracle powers.

Ardyn was just sucking that shit into him.

So not quite the same thing.

And you know what? I don't trust a fucking thing the gods of Eos say regarding anything. :mon:

Bahamut said the only way to bring back light to the world and defeat Ardyn was by sacrificing himself and killing Ardyn himself in the afterlife.

Ignis found another way, and Noctis lives and is able to bring back the light and rule Insomnia as king. So no, that entire concept is predicated on false/incomplete information.

Bahamut was said to have chosen a ruler to protect the crystal who was virtuous and true. Someone chosen by the light.

And he chose a fucking psychopath who gleefully murdered his brother's woman and then treated him like shit.

No. The gods of Eos don't even know what Starscourge is. So they aren't reliable sources for anything. Trusting the gods as reliable sources of anything is folly.
 

Gary Caelum

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The German translation for the game apparently says that the starscourge came from the meteor. I assume the gods should know that, if it's the official explanation.
 

Blade

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No. The gods of Eos don't even know what Starscourge is. So they aren't reliable sources for anything. Trusting the gods as reliable sources of anything is folly.
Did you watch Kingsglaive? Did you see Regis talk to Bahamut about Noctis?

Pretty sure this was after the incident with Ardyn (Episode Ardyn) and before the empire invaded (Kingsglaive event itself prior to FFXV).

And considering the Crystal rejected Ardyn himself, I'm 100% sure the Gods were aware of the Starscourge but didn't want to have anything to do with it. They only chose a "King" to resolve the problem. It could have been anyone except Ardyn.

But since the Lucii are the choosers, only Noctis' bloodline was accepted.
 
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Gary Caelum

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When did he talk to Bahamut? Is that the short random cutscene where he's talking to the crystal.

I didn't think that was Bahamut.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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I think Somnus is a true-blue asshole. :mon:

But who knows, I guess we'll see. But I just don't know how much credit one can give Somnus at this point. Unless this entire recap of the past is the delusional perspective of a bitter, jaded Ardyn that is somehow unreliable. But it so far seems pretty reliable.
I've seen a lot of fans who weren't happy with Somnus and Ardyn's depictions here think the Ardyn DLC will reveal that the anime is a red herring just depicting Ardyn's distorted version of how it all went down. That theory makes no sense, though.

Square said the Prologue would reveal "the truth of the Lucii," and it was narrated by Aera, not Ardyn.

When did he talk to Bahamut? Is that the short random cutscene where he's talking to the crystal.

I didn't think that was Bahamut.
In the "Omen" trailer? Yeah, it's not entirely clear which of them it is (Bahamut or the Crystal). Bahamut was inside the Crystal waiting for Noctis, so it could have been him (though the voice is not right).

In either case, anything Bahamut says needs to be taken with a 50 pound-bag of salt, knowing how screwed up his perspective is and that of Eos's divinity in general seem to be.

We know that Noctis didn't have to die to end the scourge, but neither Bahamut nor Shiva ever said anything about an alternative. So they either didn't know or didn't care enough to risk deviating from Bahamut's prophetic vision in which he had already seen a definite outcome where the daemons would be defeated. (I really can't wait to see Noctis call them out on this b.s. in "Dawn of the Future.")

They/the Crystal also went ahead and chose Somnus as their second choice when Ardyn didn't work out, despite his moral failings (he had even just killed their Oracle without remorse).

And then there's what "Comrades" reveals to us -- which alone should be enough to show that something is very, very wrong with those deities. Bahamut has the power to revive people, or even give them indestructible bodies -- yet he's let how many die or remain dead? And these Glaives he revived, he did so with the insistence they repent and absolve themselves of their "sin" of betraying Regis.

I guess Regis just gets a pass on the shady business of using these refugees to defend Insomnia while allowing them to be looked down upon in Insomnian society -- but when said refugees decide enough is enough when Regis decides to cede their homelands to the Empire, they have to endure hell to atone?

Granted, some of the Glaives who betrayed him were rat bastards who seemingly took pleasure in trying to kill their former colleagues and charges, so I will give credit to Bahamut for leaving the likes of Luche dead -- but for the rest? Why not call it a wash on the whole "atonement" thing? Regis screwed them, they screwed him, they all ended up dead.

And again, if the Glaives were such moral failures in the first place, why -- of all the people who have died -- are these the only people you chose to bring back, Bahamut?

I'll say it again: there's something deeply, deeply wrong with these entities. Shiva seems to be trying to do decent, but I feel like even she isn't quite there.
 

Gary Caelum

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Lol

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In the "Omen" trailer? Yeah, it's not entirely clear which of them it is (Bahamut or the Crystal). Bahamut was inside the Crystal waiting for Noctis, so it could have been him (though the voice is not right).

In either case, anything Bahamut says needs to be taken with a 50 pound-bag of salt, knowing how screwed up his perspective is and that of Eos's divinity in general seem to be.

It also doesn't sound like Bahamut based on what the voice says. Regis says something like "how many more do you need to kill?" and the voice says "just one more".

That's fairly ambiguous. Who are the people Regis is accusing it of killing? Maybe his family line because of how the magic shortens their life? Still doesn't make much sense. It sounds more like he's reacting to something that's just happened.
I always thought he was just using the power of the crystal to communicate with Ardyn.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

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@Gary Caelum
Regis asks "How many more must die before you are satisfied?"

To my mind at least, that doesn't necessarily suggest whoever he's addressing is doing the killing. Could be, but it doesn't strike me as obvious to tie the Crystal to Ardyn given his state at that time.

Would be a neat reveal if they chose to revisit that moment via Episode Ardyn, though.
 

Gary Caelum

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Yeah you're right, it doesn't explicitly say the voice is one doing the killing. The voice just says it's looking forward to one more death.

Straight after talking to it though, Regis says "May the gods forgive me", which seems to imply that the voice is not one of the gods.
I think the best explanation is that they were originally gonna have the crystal talk but then ditched that idea before the final game.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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Over at Reddit, I just read a theory about Episode Ardyn that I think is legit and is going to be fucking devastating.

So, in the trailer, we see that Ardyn attacks Insomnia and the place seems to be getting proper wrecked. We also see that Bahamut is going to interfere at some point.

In the developers Q&A for the Prologue anime, they responded to a question asking what the relationship between Bahamut and Ardyn is with something like "It will be revealed in the DLC. That's too spoilery for now."

The theory, then, is that Bahamut gets Ardyn to agree to go back to his hidey hole for the time being and keep the Starscourge relatively contained in the meantime in exchange for the promise of delivering to Ardyn the new Chosen King. Basically, Bahamut served Noct up like a trout in exchange for a chance at the surefire way he had been envisioning to exterminate the scourge. He Somnus'd him.

It would explain why Bahamut was such an indifferent douche (e.g. utilizing the Glaives as disposable tools, and failing to suggest to Noct there may be another way). He had decided long before that Noctis's fate was sealed, and altering that was never a consideration for him.

It explains why we never see the dragon god using his powers to any really helpful ends that might prevent Noctis from having to die in the throne room. And that conversation with Regis in the "Omen" trailer plays in here as well, as it would then take on a whole new level of fooked-up meaning if that is Bahamut Regis was conversing with.

I can see now why Episode Ardyn was meant to serve as canon for the primary FFXV timeline while also narratively being the spring board for a DLC series that would culminate in an alternate timeline; one in which Noct would break from the gods' designs and take out the scourge via alternate methods.

The pieces just seem to fit so cleanly. It would explain so much.

I can't wait for "The Dawn of the Future" novel, so we can see justice for Noctis and Lunafreya in at least one timeline.
 

Gary Caelum

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That would be a pretty interesting twist. But what would the rationale for Ardyn accepting that as a compromise?

If his intention was just to end the line of Lucis, he could surely have just killed Regis to accomplish that?
 

Makoeyes987

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Because Ardyn is like Sephiroth in his dedication to his hate. :mon:

The stage has to properly be set in order to satisfy his grudge against his enemy.

Killing Noctis before he becomes the True King and fully aware of his calling would not be fun.

Noctis has to properly be poised in the role he is meant to play before being cruelly tormented and cut down.

Ardyn's hatred has burned for this long, a little bit longer won't hurt in order to ensure the dish is fully prepared.
 

Blade

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If what you suggest is true, Tres, I wonder if Ardyn actually has a grudge at all, considering he's working with Ifrit.

If Ifrit's "rebellion" bears any significance to the other Astrals, you'd think they'd be more direct about it.

But if Bahamut struck a deal with Ifrit and Ardyn, that's not good at all.

But at the same time, I get the feeling (at least from Episode Ignis at least) that Ardyn isn't done with his role and won't necessarily end up a villain when all is said and done if Ignis' retcon tale is any hint on the topic.

Like you said, I'm sure Noct will have a beef with Bahamut, though I imagine Ardyn does too... which makes this story more interesting if you think about it.
 

Tashasaurous

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Because Ardyn is like Sephiroth in his dedication to his hate. :mon:

The stage has to properly be set in order to satisfy his grudge against his enemy.

Killing Noctis before he becomes the True King and fully aware of his calling would not be fun.

Noctis has to properly be poised in the role he is meant to play before being cruelly tormented and cut down.

Ardyn's hatred has burned for this long, a little bit longer won't hurt in order to ensure the dish is fully prepared.

Except unlike Sephiroth who tried to take out an entire planet but failed, Ardyn is so far the only Final Fantasy character(not counting Caius in FFXIII-2 since it's a sequel to FFXIII in the main game-line) to have succeeded in getting what he wanted despite the world being saved. On the other hand, he's also like Kefka who succeeded in ruining the world and both of these guys manipulated with empires, but again, the main protagonist in FFVI(Terra) didn't die and neither did Cloud(well, he did in Advent Children but he was brought back to life by Aerith and Zack).

If what you suggest is true, Tres, I wonder if Ardyn actually has a grudge at all, considering he's working with Ifrit.

If Ifrit's "rebellion" bears any significance to the other Astrals, you'd think they'd be more direct about it.

But if Bahamut struck a deal with Ifrit and Ardyn, that's not good at all.

But at the same time, I get the feeling (at least from Episode Ignis at least) that Ardyn isn't done with his role and won't necessarily end up a villain when all is said and done if Ignis' retcon tale is any hint on the topic.

Like you said, I'm sure Noct will have a beef with Bahamut, though I imagine Ardyn does too... which makes this story more interesting if you think about it.

Yet
Bahamut helped out in breaking the wall along with the other Astrals(save for Ifrit) in the Royal Edition version of the main game.
Then again, this just gave me a bit of a new worried view on Bahamut and I thought Ifrit was bad, and Titan is just gigantic and scary and...butt ugly.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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That would be a pretty interesting twist. But what would the rationale for Ardyn accepting that as a compromise?

If his intention was just to end the line of Lucis, he could surely have just killed Regis to accomplish that?
That wasn't his sole intention, though. As Mako said -- well, as Ardyn himself said in Chapter 13 -- "Noct, killing you as a mortal will bring me scant satisfaction. Claim the Crystal's power. Arise as its champion."

Ardyn has already waited 2000 years for revenge, so what's one more generation?
 
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